Neutrals/Counterpicks/Bans For map selection in tournaments thread

[Mr.HawK]

As most of us know, Splatoon's competitive scene is still under construction since not every weapon, map, mode, woomy, etc. has been added to the game. The list i've prepared below is an example of maps that will likely be either kept or moved into a different list category.

For those who have played Smash bros, Halo, and other competitive titles you know how important it is to play on ACTUALLY BALANCED MAPS. what I mean by balanced is that there isn't a single weapon type advantage that completely overpowers every other type in the map/match (see Moray for example).

I for one believe that one specific weapon or class should not overrule or overpower every other weapon in the game on a specific map(s), that's not fun nor is it exciting to watch in a competitive environment. So please look at the list with caution since im not proposing this be the actual list, i'm just proposing that the list should be similar to what you see. Thank you, and please give feed back on how you feel the list should look.

PLEASE NOTE THIS IS AN EXAMPLE LIST NOT A REAL LIST


NEUTRALS:

• Walleye
  
  
• Saltspray
  
  
• Blackbelly
  
  
• Kelp dome
  
  
• Port mackerel
  
  
• Underpass

Counter picks

• Flounder
  
  
• Arowana
  
  
• Triggerfish
  
  
• Bluefin

BANS

• Moray (E liters literally determine matches, there's no way to push without out playing the longest ranged weapon in the game that has shots that reach all exits and entrances to mid)

 

[Icedise]

You really shouldn't exclude Moray Towers based on your personal preference. The whole competitive community should give their opinions regarding that topic.

 

[Mr.HawK]

You really shouldn't exclude Moray Towers based on your personal preference. The whole competitive community should give their opinions regarding that topic.

its just a test list. thats why i asked for people to give their thoughts on why certain maps should be in certain spots on the list.

 

[Hitzel]

I first want to say that the more time goes on, the more I think that Halo-style map rotations is a better way to do tournaments than Smash-style picks & bans. You just have to make sure the rotations change every tournament and don't stagnate.

(*Edit* Because of this thread I ended up making a new thread to discuss Halo-Style map rotations, here's a link:
http://squidboards.com/threads/psa-...n-alternative-to-smash-style-picks-bans.7324/ )

Second, if we have to do Smash-style tournaments, the Neutral stages should probably be different for every tournament, maybe even every round.

But, if we HAVE to settle on one good map list, I almost agree with you. The problem is Walleye Warehouse. I know that it's a favorite of Squid Squads and it's not a bad map, but it is a very bottlenecked map with slippery slope and little variety. That just doesn't make for a good game 1.

Take Warehouse away and I more or less agree with your starters. Flounder Heights is looking awesome so far, but it's new so I'll hold off on an opinion.

As for bans, ban nothing. Period. Arowana and Towers carry heavy negative connotations and "soak up" bans that would otherwise be used as strategic bans, so we'll see what happens over time, but then again Halo-style rotations that change every round of every tournament solve that problem (and every other problem, really).

*Edit*

Something to try is a "Stress Test" tournament that forces the use of "problem" maps to see how they handle under pressure, similar to how Pokemon works, before forming opinions. Again though, well-managed Halo-style tournaments don't face this problem.

 

[Poyo]

I say the stage list should be different for every mode. There are some extremely balanced maps like Kelp Dome that tend to seem like a neutral pick for all of the modes, whereas others (e.g. Saltspray Rig) that are drastically different for all four modes. I have a preliminary list for Turf War, Tower Control, and Splat Zones, but it's still incomplete because there's a lot of theory-crafting that needs to be put into all of it.

I think there are some stages that should be banned per-mode, such as Arowana Mall in Splat Zones; in that particular example, it's near impossible to regain control of the main zone once it's been taken, due to limited approach options and relatively easy camping with a decently-coordinated team.

 

[[EJ]_Locke]

If you are going to ban any map, ban Port and Triggerfish.

 

[Kbot]

Gametypes (map + mode combinations), while there are a lot, are the ones that need to be categorized in our new meta, not just maps. Saltspray seems to be great in Tower, but not so much on RM. (Reasons I'm not discussing here). You can't ban maps overall, cause every map is good for one reason or another. Just most maps don't have a good setup or aren't suited for specific modes.

I completely agree that we do need a list, though. We NEED a list. No matter what direction we go, and even if it's just for reference when TOs are picking stages for their tournies.

 

[Aweshucks]

Moray Towers sucks, but there's nothign about it that warrants a ban.

You have 6 starters. I don't know what kind of map choosing you have in mind, but for striking you have to have an odd number.

Here's my suggested list:

Neutrals:
Walleye
Urichin
Blackbelly
Saltspray
Kelp Dome

CPs:
Arrowana
Bluefin
Flounder
Mackerel
Triggerfish
Moray

Bans:
None.


Ok, here's my reasoning:
All of the neutral stages are neutral across all ranked game-modes. Some people have a problem with blackbelly rainmaker, but I really don't think it's a problem and I'd like to see it tested in tournaments to really see what happens. I would have put Arrowana in there over Kelp Dome, but a lot of people have a problem with arrowana Splat Zones and I felt Kelp Dome was a safer pick, even though I don't really like it myself.
CPs either have problems with at least one game mode (Arrowana Splat Zones, Mackerel Splat Zones, etc.) or are just generally not likable maps (Moray). Bluefin doesn't fit into either of those imo, but it just doesn't feel like a neutral I guess. I haven't been able to play much Flounder, as I was on vacation when it came out, so I stuck it in counterpicks to be safe.
There are no bans because it is much too early to do that. Maps need to be extensively suspect tested in tournaments before I can be comfortable even considering a ban.


Perhaps we should do similar lists for each gamemode? They would likely change considerably

 

[Box]

If everyone agrees that it's too early to decide what maps should be banned, how do you justify making the finer distinction between neutral stages and counterpicks? Don't underestimate the effect of making a stage a counterpick. In a game where it takes time to learn the maps, making something a counterpick makes it much less important to practice on.

 

[Aweshucks]

Because I'm procrastinating on stuff, I might as well go ahead and think up some mode-specific ones-

Splat Zones-

Neutral:
Walleye
BlackBelly
Saltspray
Kelp Dome
Bluefin



Tower Control-

Neutral:
Walleye
Blackbelly
Arrowana
Urchin
Mackerel



Rain Maker-

Neutral:
Walleye
Arrowana
Urchin
Mackerel
Kelp Dome


Turf War-

Neutral:
Walleye
Blackbelly
Kelp Dome
Mackerel
Urchin


Ok, so maybe they aren't all that different. I don't feel like typing out explainations, and I didn't really put that much thought into them anyway, but if you have questions about them, just ask

 

[Kbot]

Turf War-

Neutral:
Walleye
Blackbelly
Kelp Dome
Mackerel
Urchin

I hope we can count Turf off on any list we make from here on out. I think we're officially done with it.

Not to beat a dead horse or anything. Just saying.

 

[Aweshucks]

Oh I agree. I just did it because I'm bored and felt like thinking about it.

 

[Aweshucks]

If everyone agrees that it's too early to decide what maps should be banned, how do you justify making the finer distinction between neutral stages and counterpicks? Don't underestimate the effect of making a stage a counterpick. In a game where it takes time to learn the maps, making something a counterpick makes it much less important to practice on.

Because that's something that needs to happen, unless we plan on doing full list stage striking. Of course, that's assuming we're doing stage striking. And there's nothing wrong with full list stage striking, but there are some maps that are very clearly not fit to be neutral stages

 

[Kbot]

If everyone agrees that it's too early to decide what maps should be banned, how do you justify making the finer distinction between neutral stages and counterpicks? Don't underestimate the effect of making a stage a counterpick. In a game where it takes time to learn the maps, making something a counterpick makes it much less important to practice on.

Basically, we need to start a discussion of stages and such for stages to watch. We shouldn't ban stages yet, but we should be looking at what we think we might want to ban. Same with neutrals/counterpicks.

Plus, if you don't practice a counterpick, the better the counterpick is for your opponent. You don't want that to happen.

 

[Box]

Because that's something that needs to happen, unless we plan on doing full list stage striking. Of course, that's assuming we're doing stage striking. And there's nothing wrong with full list stage striking, but there are some maps that are very clearly not fit to be neutral stages

That's the thing, though. There's nothing clear about it. Just like there's no clear reason to ban a stage.

Basically, we need to start a discussion of stages and such for stages to watch. We shouldn't ban stages yet, but we should be looking at what we think we might want to ban. Same with neutrals/counterpicks.

Plus, if you don't practice a counterpick, the better the counterpick is for your opponent. You don't want that to happen.

There's very little reason to spend extra effort knowing the ins and outs of a counterpick stage. If you're in it to win, you're better off focusing on knowing 2 or 3 neutral stages really well. Then you can strike down to 1 of those stages in the first match and only have to win on your best stages. And it's a positive feedback loop once your opponents adopt the same idea and stop picking the counterpick stages.

 

[Aweshucks]

I agree with you, in part. I'd like to see some tournaments try out full list striking (or other ways of choosing a map) and see how it works. On the other hand, there are definitely going to be plenty of tournaments that are going to use neutrals/counterpicks, so it's worthwhile to decide which is which.

 

[Avatar K]

In Moray Towers, if the splat zones game mode is chosen, a slosher can single-handedly defend his/her own zone from above. Only a large number of people; a charger; or an attack from even ground, which requires a push deep into enemy territory, can effectively displace the slosher. The slosher can also take steps to avoid getting splatted by the slosher. Moray Towers should probably not be legal in splat zones. However, I think it is too early to determine if it deserves a ban in other modes.

 

[Flying_Tortoise]

I first want to say that the more time goes on, the more I think that Halo-style map rotations is a better way to do tournaments than Smash-style picks & bans. You just have to make sure the rotations change every tournament and don't stagnate.

Second, if we have to do Smash-style tournaments, the Neutral stages should probably be different for every tournament, maybe even every round.

But, if we HAVE to settle on one good map list, I almost agree with you. The problem is Walleye Warehouse. I know that it's a favorite of Squid Squads and it's not a bad map, but it is a very bottlenecked map with slippery slope and little variety. That just doesn't make for a good game 1.

Take Warehouse away and I more or less agree with your starters. Flounder Heights is looking awesome so far, but it's new so I'll hold off on an opinion.

As for bans, ban nothing. Period. Arowana and Towers carry heavy negative connotations and "soak up" bans that would otherwise be used as strategic bans, so we'll see what happens over time, but then again Halo-style rotations that change every round of every tournament solve that problem (and every other problem, really).

*Edit*

Something to try is a "Stress Test" tournament that forces the use of "problem" maps to see how they handle under pressure, similar to how Pokemon works, before forming opinions. Again though, well-managed Halo-style tournaments don't face this problem.

yo hitzel is there a specific place that talks about the halo-style tournaments in depth? I'd like to learn more about but tbh i'm too lazy and busy to find a credible website to learn how they work

 

[Agosta44]

1-2-1 with the 5 starting stages and winner ban 3 for all other games works fine IMO. The 5 starter maps are quite different from one another which is good. Unless they nerf splash wall mackerel is worse to play on than Moray is with eliter. I don't think any map should be hard-banned.

 

[Kaliafornia]

Although all around Moray is my least favorite map, I only think Moray is unbalanced on SZ. I could see some modes certain maps being banned, like Blackbelly in RM given how fast games can be there. However I think its a bit overboard to ban a map for all modes.