Could the vanilla Carbon Roller be saved if the Deco's kit gets nerfed?

[McSquid82]

What I mean is the Deco's kit is a massive reason why it's chosen over the vanilla. It has a sub that's quick and easy for what it does on top of being extremely cheap. And do I really need to explain Zooka, the weapon reigning at the top of the meta right now along with Cooler? But would it still be such a superior kit if some of its advantages got taken away? Like say, Burst Bomb's ink consumption was raised by 10 to 55 percent and all of a sudden it's no longer the cheap bomb option it used to be. I know that would affect other weapons too, but I think burst bomb deserves it. It's way too ink efficient for what it does and that's a big part of why it's considered one of the top subs in the game right now.

On top of that, let's say Zooka finally gets hit with all the nerfs it's due for in the next patch. The Deco's advantages would practically be wiped out compared to the vanilla or at least severely toned down, right? And on the topic of the vanilla Carbon, I actually don't think Zipcaster is a bad special for it at all. It's actually solid and gives it a different way to fight longer ranged weapons. I think with the aforementioned changes listed above, it would be in a better position to challenge the Deco, because they're still the same main weapon regardless of kit. The burst bomb nerf would make it cost the same as an Autobomb and it wouldn't have the same tracking ability. What do you think?

 

[vitellary]

i mean, a lot of that hinges on burst bomb getting an incredibly large ink consumption nerf, which i absolutely don't think is necessary for it. it's frankly a far less overpowered subweapon compared to a ton of other options; nearly all of the standard lethal bombs could warrant nerfs more than burst does, imo. and the fact that it's on multiple really ink-hungry weapons like stamper and dousers makes me think nerfing its ink consumption would just make those weapons unnecessarily worse while not really impacting things like carbon or splash (the weapons people tend to complain about) that much at all

aside from that, though, i've always felt that the deco kit will always have an advantage over the vanilla kit no matter what nerfs come to it, and that's for the simple reason that burst bomb helps carbon paint while autobomb doesn't. carbon's paint is an absolutely critical weakness of the main weapon, and its vanilla kit just truly gives it absolutely no way in against a comp that is painting even somewhat idly. autobomb just generally does very very little for carbon, and i'm of the opinion that carbon can't get very much value out of its zipcaster either because it's so short-range; it can really only go for people that are standing near a ledge, and it's fairly easy to just back away from its lethal range when you see it coming. the deco kit just has infinitely better synergy with the main weapon than its vanilla kit, and i don't think any amount of nerfs to it would make it so it doesn't just always fit its playstyle better

 

[isaac4]

I don't think it's fair to nerf Burst Bomb just because Carbon Deco is better than the vanilla kit.
It's an unnecessary and harsh nerf to other Burst weapons while not actually changing much for vCarbon.
Even if the deco kit didn't have Zooka, Burst is still the perfect sub for the main weapon and it shouldn't be made weaker just because vCarbon isn't as good.

 

[McSquid82]

I don't think it's fair to nerf Burst Bomb just because Carbon Deco is better than the vanilla kit.
It's an unnecessary and harsh nerf to other Burst weapons while not actually changing much for vCarbon.
Even if the deco kit didn't have Zooka, Burst is still the perfect sub for the main weapon and it shouldn't be made weaker just because vCarbon isn't as good.

I don't think it's unnecessary. A ton of other meta picks also have burst bomb like Splash and Stamper. Same goes for Zooka. For what BB does and how high up it is on the sub tier list, I think it deserves to be taken down a peg or two. Increase its ink consumption to at least 50 percent of the tank and couple with that with the nerfs that are most likely coming to Zooka in the next patch regardless and all of a sudden the Deco is no longer the superior option in every way. Burst Bomb would retain its characteristics, but it would be more fair. If they want people to use the vanilla Carbon more, the Deco's kit has to be brought in line.

 

[Catloafman]

I really don't like the idea of making vCarbon better by making deco worse that kit was not a good idea and making Carbon deco suffer for it is unfair
Not every kit needs to be viable in this game especially if the kit is a bad idea

 

[Neko :D]

I personally dislike the Deco, and always choose the vanilla because I am especially skilled with zipcaster. But I do agree that the Deco kit is pretty good and I don't see many people using vanilla, so even if it was nerfed, it still might not have a chance.

 

[DzNutsKong]

Carbon Deco is just a perfect kit synergistically for a weapon that needs a strong kit to not be kinda just a worse version of vRoller.

Vanilla Carbon is technically an okay kit. Most subs would suck for Carbon and Autobomb is technically one of the better bombs it could get for the cheapness and location. There's not a lot of points you'd want to throw a bomb as Carbon though because you want to shark so often with that weapon. It's for that same reason that you do want Burst Bomb and why an ink efficiency nerf wouldn't matter - if you're sharking, neither of those things matter. Instead you'd get the effective range buff of now being able to do Burst Bomb combos. You can be much further from a Carbon Roller and still not be safe from an unreactable kill because it can hit someone outside of its one-shot range, then get a Burst direct.

Zipcaster and Trizooka both have the same goal - hit people from far away. That's all Carbon needs to do. Zipcaster is so much less consistent for that though because of how hard it is to properly get into something's range without dying. Even before it got its absurd buff Trizooka was still considered the absolute perfect special for this weapon and Zipcaster was always considered imperfect for these reasons. It's not just a matter of Carbon Deco existing.

It's not like I think this weapon is in dire need of the vanilla kit being good anyways. Both kits have their merits on a casual level, if you pick Carbon you're playing it for the main weapon anyways and it would be one of the harder weapons to work into having more than one functional kit at a top level. I think it's in a fine spot as is.

 

[vitellary]

A ton of other meta picks also have burst bomb like Splash and Stamper. [...] For what BB does and how high up it is on the sub tier list, I think it deserves to be taken down a peg or two.

consider: something being very good does not necessarily mean it should be made worse
stamper being good is generally considered to be a very good thing for the meta right now, it's an extremely difficult weapon that deserves to have satisfyingly high power as a result. and splash being able to throw burst bombs to support its teammates is also a good role to have

 

[isaac4]

I don't think it's unnecessary. A ton of other meta picks also have burst bomb like Splash and Stamper. Same goes for Zooka. For what BB does and how high up it is on the sub tier list, I think it deserves to be taken down a peg or two. Increase its ink consumption to at least 50 percent of the tank and couple with that with the nerfs that are most likely coming to Zooka in the next patch regardless and all of a sudden the Deco is no longer the superior option in every way. Burst Bomb would retain its characteristics, but it would be more fair. If they want people to use the vanilla Carbon more, the Deco's kit has to be brought in line.

I disagree that Burst needs to be nerfed just because it's strong.
It's ink consumption has already been nerfed before and LDE was also nerfed so it's not something you can easily throw out anymore, especially for Burst weapons like S-Blast or Stamper.
Nerfing it again would just make its utility as a cheap and quick poking sub harder to use.

 

[McSquid82]

Regardless, I still think that the vCarbon deserves a better kit. Zipcaster is actually an extremely good special for this weapon, and I think if it had a better sub, it would be much better equipped to compete with the Deco kit. Torpedo or Fizzy Bombs, despite costing more would be way better subs and might actually convince people to try the vCarbon more. Neither of them have been paired with Zipcaster so far or a roller for that matter, and they could have easily given the Autobomb to something like the Big Swig Roller. Either one of those might actually provide a playstyle that the Deco doesn't have and incentivize people to use the vanilla kit more.

 

[Yeenom]

Taking down another kit isn't going to save V-Carbon, it's just gonna kill Carbon entirely. The reason Deco is so good is because it can combo with Burst and Tri, but Autobomb just kind of exists on the kit and Zipcaster is basically unneeded with it's mobility. Really, it's more Burst if anything that puts it above V-Carbon, it's quite literally one of the best possible main-sub combos ever. Without it, Carbon is entirely outclassed by some other weapons (Cough cough, Octobrush) so there'd be basically no reason to use it. This is also ignoring the fact that these changes apply to the subs and specials entirely, not just on the kit they're on, and theoretically if nerfing Deco somehow helped V-Carbon then that's a whole lot of carnage just for an okay kit.

 

[McSquid82]

Taking down another kit isn't going to save V-Carbon, it's just gonna kill Carbon entirely. The reason Deco is so good is because it can combo with Burst and Tri, but Autobomb just kind of exists on the kit and Zipcaster is basically unneeded with it's mobility. Really, it's more Burst if anything that puts it above V-Carbon, it's quite literally one of the best possible main-sub combos ever. Without it, Carbon is entirely outclassed by some other weapons (Cough cough, Octobrush) so there'd be basically no reason to use it. This is also ignoring the fact that these changes apply to the subs and specials entirely, not just on the kit they're on, and theoretically if nerfing Deco somehow helped V-Carbon then that's a whole lot of carnage just for an okay kit.

I understand some of your points but I disagree that Zipcaster is unnecessary. In case you haven't noticed, the Carbon isn't exactly a long range weapon. V-Carbon needs Zip against the many, many weapons that outrange it. And Autobomb doesn't just exist it provides utility. Does Burst Bomb track? I don't think so.

 

[missingno]

Regardless, I still think that the vCarbon deserves a better kit.

You do have a better kit: Deco.

It's not like this is a case of a main weapon that got shafted with two bad kits. You got a good kit, so if you don't like the bad one, play the good one.

 

[McSquid82]

You do have a better kit: Deco.

It's not like this is a case of a main weapon that got shafted with two bad kits. You got a good kit, so if you don't like the bad one, play the good one.

I said the vCarbon as in vanilla, as in the total exclusion of the deco kit. Something like torpedo or fizzy bomb would be a way better sub to pair with zip. It has one good kit, why can't it have two then? The Splattershot can, as well as the Splash, so I don't see why the carbon can't. Now that the main weapon has gotten some buffs, I hope the v-Carbon can see some uptick in usage, because regardless of their kits, they're the exact same weapon.

 

[vitellary]

i do wonder how much more equally the kits would be used if the specials were swapped. auto/trizooka has enough synergy on its own that i think it could be used a bit more often than auto/zip does, though burst/zip would of course still be the better kit that gets chosen more often

we're kinda going around in circles but really i think it just boils down to, carbon really really needs burst-paint in its sub weapon in order to function at all. i don't know if there's any solution to this other than like, maybe making carbon always paint its feet when it flicks, but that's such a big change to the identity of the weapon, and the class as a whole, that i'm not sure they'd do it

 

[missingno]

vCarbon just doesn't have the synergy to become a good kit. I don't see what you can do to Autobomb/Zip to salvage it, and it doesn't sound like you have any real ideas either. The way I see it, the only 'fix' is a different kit, which exists.

Carbon by itself has critical weaknesses that the Burst Bomb serves to cover perfectly. Burst+Flick combo gives the weapon a much better effective kill range, and it provides much-needed burst paint to help it move. I would argue that synergies like this are good design, weapons that pair very well with their subs/specials are what we should see more of out of the kit system. I would rather preserve this synergy than try to kill it off in the hopes that would make vCarbon better.

There's a lot to be said about how Splatoon 3's kit system has failed many main weapons. But I think it misses the forest for the trees to fixate on this one individual bad kit and ask about fixing that specific kit. The problem is the kit itself, and the fix is Deco.

Like, just play Deco if you don't like vanilla.

 

[McSquid82]

i do wonder how much more equally the kits would be used if the specials were swapped. auto/trizooka has enough synergy on its own that i think it could be used a bit more often than auto/zip does, though burst/zip would of course still be the better kit that gets chosen more often

we're kinda going around in circles but really i think it just boils down to, carbon really really needs burst-paint in its sub weapon in order to function at all. i don't know if there's any solution to this other than like, maybe making carbon always paint its feet when it flicks, but that's such a big change to the identity of the weapon, and the class as a whole, that i'm not sure they'd do it

That's the thing I've been wondering too. I don't think it would necessarily change the identity the the roller class if some rollers got the same change the Dynamo just got. The carbon just needs better and more consistent paint. When people talk about synergy, they're really talking about the deficiencies of the main weapon and why it needs weapons like burst bomb to even function. The Deco can keep burst bomb the way it is now.

But the one thing that does absolutely need to change is Zooka, and it's not just because of the Deco. That thing is borderline broken the way it's designed right now and it needs massive nerfs. I'd suggest adding 40 frames of startup and lag between shots. Splattershot, Squeezer, Neo Machine and to a lesser extent Carbon Deco have all feasted for far too long at the top or mid tier at worst in the meta. Burst bombs might help, but a huge part of its appeal is a broken special which along with Cooler have dominated the meta for nearly a year and half now. That's a huge part of why the meta and competitive scene have largely stagnated.