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Discussion: It is important to minimise deaths

Discussion in 'Competitive Discussion' started by kiwi_tea, Aug 4, 2017.

  1. kiwi_tea

    kiwi_tea Inkster Jr.

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    When I first started playing Splatoon 1 I was new to online shooters. I consulted a range of guides, and most of them began with one key statement: Don't die. I suspect a lot of players underestimate how important this is, especially players who are adept at wracking up multiple kills ending in a trade, ie, players with a hyper-aggressive playstyle. Splatoon is ultimately, however, a team sport. Each death we incur means several things:

    1. Roughly 8 seconds downtime, if respawn times resemble S1.
    2. Your teammates lack protection from flank attacks.
    3. You lose map control, and have to get back into position either manually or by a potentially risky super-jump.

    Example:

    Imagine a team who lost a match, ending with KD (kills/deaths) as follows. This is very general, we're making assumptions based on very limited information, set aside concerns about who had what weapon etc:

    P1: 22/13
    P2: 14/8
    P3: 8/3
    P4: 1/11

    Now, imagine we are P1. We've worked our arse off. We wracked up 22 kills. We were *carrying* right? Let's think about that claim.

    As P1 we died a full 13 times, more than any other player. That effectively means we were absent from the field for just barely under 2 minutes, busy watching the respawn animation when we might have been holding down some key points on the map. Now, to be fair, it might have been that P1 was just saddled with bad teammates, and was overrun by the other team, but judging from the other players KD we could make some guesses about their performance as well. It is possible that P3 is a very competent player, a less reckless player than P1, who could not advance or get flanks because their teammates were dead so much. Notice they only died 3 times. This could indicate they were timid, but most competitive players are not. It could indicate they were a ranged weapon and the other team could not reach them. Or it could indicate that they were taking care not to die wherever possible: maximising their time on the field, holding down key areas of the map, and retreating when necessary. It is also possible that P2 is an okay player who found themselves consistently flanked due to the field absence of P1. As for P4, perhaps they are not a great player, but this is only amplified by the absence of their more competent teammates. As P1 we might take a lot of pride of in our 22 kills, and feel our teammates let us down, but it is just as possible that we were the bad teammate who let down P2 and P3. And if we died a full 13 times, it is very unlikely we were ever carrying the team, especially given we were forcing our teammates to expend a lot more ink than if we had remained on the field. It is even possible we made P2 run out of ink at every crucial moment, leading to their high number of deaths.

    How can we minimise deaths?

    1: Don't over-extend

    Instead of thinking of yourself as a finely honed killing machine, think of your team as a defensive formation. If they stay too far back, or you advance too far ahead, you become an easier target to be picked off by a group of the enemy. Stay a decent distance from your teammates, but don't get ****y and rush ahead thinking you can mow the other team down at A+ the way you can mow down scrubs at C-. Even if you *are* that good, and the tactic often pays off, it's a bad habit to get into in terms of surviving and supporting teammates.

    1: Be patient

    A lot of players advise extreme aggression in the early seconds of the match, but this should always be tempered with care, and awareness of what the rest of your team is doing. It is very easy to over-extend at the start. Don't be afraid to stop, duck down in your ink in a safe spot, assess the map and think about your next move.

    2: Move well

    You've probably seen the Youtubers who can dance around other players avoiding death, dropping a bomb to pick off the enemy. This is a useful skill in a pinch. Mobility is crucial not just for aggression, but also for defense and retreat. Find some tutorials on movement techs and practice them.

    3: Don't pick fair fights

    Most players know this these days, but you should be killing the people who are trying to kill your teammates, not taking people on head-to-head unless you've no choice.

    4: Range

    It's a lot harder for them to kill what they can't get close to, but the trade-off is usually that once a melee-style weapon gets close to a slow-firing ranged weapon, the latter is done. Teams can be carried by a good ranged weapon that stands back and picks off anyone that comes for their teammates, ensuring minimal casualties not just for themselves, but for the whole team.

    5: Fall back

    If you have the whole enemy team on you, don't get fancy. Don't try to take them all down, sure, you might single-handedly sustain a wipe, but you might also just run out of ink and die. Fall back to a safe position, wait for your other teammates to come online, then find them and support them.

    6. Try a less aggressive weapon

    My main example is always the Inkbrush. It simply *can't* play as head-to-head aggressively as a lot of other weapons, but it can still be incredibly effective when you learn how to use it. It forces you to learn patience and mobility, which is why many players can't get it to work, and think it's a "bad weapon".
     
    #1 kiwi_tea, Aug 4, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  2. GreatGateway

    GreatGateway Full Squid

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    "Scrubs at C-" Gee thanks, sorry we're so bad.

    But still, I was wondering what role you can play if you absolutely cannot aim, keeping this tips in mind?
     
  3. Dessgeega

    Dessgeega Squid Savior From the Future

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    Generally speaking, if you're in C- consistently and not just starting there, the term applies. If you absolutely cannot aim, use the Tri-Slosher.
     
  4. Nero86

    Nero86 Inkling Cadet

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    This is a nice and mature suggestion, I only started to progress to higher ranks in Splatoon 1 when minimizing deaths. At first I played as suicide carbon roller, but the more I died, the angrier I become. After observing many niconico videos, I saw that top players were avoiding unnecessary deaths and having more patience than me. The result was great, more wins and less angry moments.
     
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  5. Watermonster1

    Watermonster1 Full Squid

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    Being Patient can help One time I wasn't patience in a match and died a lot XD ( I was using Splatling in that battle like a idiot )
     
  6. Hamachiカマ★

    Hamachiカマ★ Full Squid

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    Don't use the tri slosher unless you love it and will continue to do so even when it's nerfed in the future.

    I suggest actually practicing in the training room. If you can't even hit still/set motion targets with high accuracy there's little chance you'll be able to hit live ones.
     
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  7. Spaceswitchmars

    Spaceswitchmars Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    So, I don't disagree with this concept on the face of it, but I have trouble with one concept. Your argument for not dying is the accumulated amount of downtime and what that does to your team, which is a sound, undeniable idea.

    However, if you reverse logic this concept, the longer you can keep your enemies out of the game above the time you yourself is out of the game, the more you are hurting the other team. Because if it's bad for you to die, it's also bad for them to die.

    Removing circumstances (IE - if a tower is about to knock you out, that's no time for caution... just as caution is more preferable if your team has a huge lead and dying could threaten to kick start a huge counter-push), where would you draw the line?

    You noted in your example that 22 kills with 13 deaths is bad because of the amount of time it takes you out of the game, but those kills also remove the enemy out of the game for nearly 3 whole minutes of game time. I'm not saying you're wrong here, but I'm curious about your thoughts because it seems like a pretty favorable trade off.

    And, just for the record, I'm not typically a high-death player myself. So it's not like I'm trying to stubbornly argue that my overly aggressive style is a-okay. I honestly want to know what you guys think. I saw this thread a few days ago, and I've been kind of turning it over in my mind since then.
     
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  8. Dessgeega

    Dessgeega Squid Savior From the Future

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    Now that Quick Respawn is out of the picture, avoiding death is more important than it's ever been. Sure, if you keep foes out of the game more than you're out of the game, that is technically good, but it can all be for naught if you die at a crucial moment. Removing circumstances isn't really possible because one death at any point can result in a snowball effect with the extreme pace of this game.
     
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  9. Hamachiカマ★

    Hamachiカマ★ Full Squid

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    While that's true, you are hindering your team by dying, your ink could get on them and now you essentially helped killed them too.

    And now the only person left is the 8/3 person who has to hide because now the other team has jumped because they have 2 ppl alive and they can't do a 1v2.

    That's just an example though. You could be killing a lot but are they inking too?
    People think inking isn't that important in ranked but it is. Can't tell you how many battles I won because our ink overwhelmed the other team's. We could hide in so many places while they had no footing.

    Overall it's just better not to die as much. Especially because you could have a person doing 1/11 on your team. So essentially on P1 is alive most of the match and the one pushing the objective. And likely with that score you died at a bad time. Unless the other team has worse scores ofc.
     
  10. Spaceswitchmars

    Spaceswitchmars Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    For sure. I only say "removing circumstances" here because this is a thought experiment -- not an actual game. Let's say it's 22 kills and 13 deaths outside of extreme circumstances. Perhaps that's a better way to phrase it.

    What I'm reading from you (correct me if I'm wrong) is that a positive kill/death is technically good (adjusting for circumstance), but dying less is better. And on top of that -- the problem isn't so much dying but overextending oneself into needless deaths that provide no great advantage but could result in snowballing.

    I have no objection to that. That's not really where I'm stuck here. It's the idea that dying, say, 13 times is always bad because it takes a player out of the game for nearly two minutes. That in itself is a statement removed from circumstance, and the math doesn't work in its favor when accounting for the 22 kills.

    This is sounding nitpicking, and I don't mean it to. I think the base idea isn't even dying but overextending. If that's the point, I have no objections theoretical or otherwise.
     
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  11. Spaceswitchmars

    Spaceswitchmars Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    In this specific circumstance, I agree...

    And I think I agree with the idea as a whole. Especially the point about the ways it puts your teammates at risk. I'm not very good at this game myself, but I do pride myself on having good map awareness and always seeking out ways to try to help my team. This added context as to what you mean clarifies this for me to a point.
     
  12. Dessgeega

    Dessgeega Squid Savior From the Future

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    Personally, I think kills really don't matter at the end of the day, despite what the game's stats and mechanics might imply. A player with few kills but covers huge swaths of ground in a great play at the end of a turf match. A player that hustles the rainmaker to a 30 point lead in a rough stalemate and then dies. A player that keeps the zone on lockdown with a ranged weapon (raises hand). All of these players have objectively as much or more value than the guy who's Rambo-ing on the enemy the entire match.

    It's worth it to everyone to avoid death in the game's current meta, regardless of role. Overextending is even more of a bad idea than it used to be. Just look at the "rush to center" tactic so many people are using and getting punished for.
     
  13. Spaceswitchmars

    Spaceswitchmars Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    For sure. At the risk of pushing this too far off topic, let me say that I'm a player who can't carry a team, but I'm pretty good in my role when I'm playing with some of my more talented friends. My role happens to be splatting and protecting areas, but that doesn't mean I think everyone should do that all the time. One of my more talented friends is an amazing coverer. Another has a great well-rounded game. The three of us work well together -- usually with a rotating fourth.

    I think people mistake the idea that kills are very beneficial with the idea that they are the only path toward winning. I believe there are many paths and strategy to a good team as long as those four people complement each other well. I believe in splatting as a good strategy, but that's a far cry from it being the only strategy. This game is so deceptively deep.
     
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  14. Hamachiカマ★

    Hamachiカマ★ Full Squid

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    Mmmm I think they somewhat matter but aren't the end all be all.
    This is embarrassing but in the last game me and friend faced a tri squad of S+ with a very skilled e-liter. They were all so good BUT we were able to push the objective and beat their score even though they all had high kills, one dude had like 27/4 or something (the camping e-liter) but we got him at a crucial moment and they lost :)

    Now if we had gotten no kills at all we would have just been anihilated. But I know you didn't mean it to that extreme so really I'm just backing up your point for disbelievers :p

    The point is to be aware of time and how far each team is from the objective and plan around that. It's not good to be focused on kills. Unless it's like 25/4 no one's going to be super impressed anyway. :-3 totally agree that there's multiple ways to win!
     
  15. Saturn

    Saturn LFT mid range, former xlt

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    You need to consider when P1 is dying. If they're getting 2 kills and then dying during their team's push for an objective, P1 is making a huge, probably game-winning impact. Especially if it's while the team already has a number or special advantage.

    If they're feeding in while the team is at a disadvantage or is trying to stop an enemy push, they're definitely having some really bad deaths. Some deaths are going to cost the game if it lets the other team get out of spawn and make a big push. Either way, with 22 kills, they're clearly causing a problem for the other team whether they're "carrying" or not.

    We can argue all day about specific examples, but generally speaking, a player with 20 kills and 10 deaths is generally disrupting the enemy far more than a player getting 2 kills and 1 death.

    I get that the thread is making a point that kills aren't the only way to win a game. Once the game is at a level where everyone understands that, we need to move onto why it's important to be an impactful player and not overly passive.
     
    #15 Saturn, Aug 7, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  16. Spaceswitchmars

    Spaceswitchmars Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    My least favorite thing is a team getting greedy and overextending specifically for a knockout when a more defensive approach would win easily OR (in turf wars) getting greedy and camping the enemy base for kills/points. I've lost so many games over the years because people got greedy instead of playing smart. That's when dying costs you the most.

    Like I said, I'm not the best player, but it doesn't take much to not play dumb.
     
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  17. Hamachiカマ★

    Hamachiカマ★ Full Squid

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    Jeeeeeeze yes!! Literally had a match just like that in rainmaker. The enemy team had gotten to 3 but got greedy and I was able to knock it out because they had only left 2 people to guard and I just ran on the rails and killed the one waiting by the pedestal...
     
  18. Hamachiカマ★

    Hamachiカマ★ Full Squid

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    The scenario was 8/3 huge difference from 2/1. 20/10 is objectively better than 2/1 but not necessarily 8/3.
    Also gotta take into account how many people they are killing at a time. For example some matches I get 3 at one time before I die myself and get 20 kills that way. But some matches run longer and I get 20 just from doing 1 at a time.

    You also have to realize people jump. You could have killed 3 people and all 3 of your teammates are alive but the enemy team has people jumping faster or in a better location.

    You can be killing and killing but if you're not inking or helping push the objective then it'd be better if you killed less and just stayed alive more and became more of a team player.
    Ranked is not individual and while something like 20/10 definitely isn't garbage it's not ideal.


    Plus if 20/10 is actually the 'best' player on the team why would they expect their teammates to push without them? Kidding. But really every death counts even P1's 3 deaths.

    And I see no arguing? Just friendly debate :)
     
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  19. Saber

    Saber Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    I have to admit this thread has some really important points and I feel there are a few things I do need to improve on, but I do think you forgot to key in a important fact.
    Special depletion
    Keep in mind that when you die you risk some of your gauge in the process, however this goes both ways, keeping an priority enemy from getting inkarmor can be more beneficial at time than you staying alive...not all the time remind you since again you risk support your team could get from your special/coverage.
    But at times it is better to put your life on the line than allow the enemies to make stronger pushes
     
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  20. kiwi_tea

    kiwi_tea Inkster Jr.

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    Hi Saturn and Spacewitchmars, you make some good points. 22 kills is a major contribution to clearing the field. In some contexts 22 kills and 13 deaths indicates a really great performance. Many of us play a certain way, whether its aggressively trading or inking turf, we aim to create opportunities for our teammates to exploit. It is frustrating when they don't exploit the opportunities we are making, but we need to think about why that is, and what we can control about the situation vs what we can't (eg, we can't control our teammates, so blaming them for losses gets us stuck in a rut).

    It is important not to overlook two things here which may make the match much more volatile than it needs to be:

    1: The other team may have one player just as good as P1 is. Who avoids her murder machine, and picks off key vulnerable players/weapon types on P1's team (eg, snipers) so that they cannot provide cover or support objective-pushing.

    1: P1's teammates may not be as good at dealing with direct engagements as she is (or they may face weapons that easily overpower theirs when they are flanked).

    Both of these are reason enough to see how important maintaining a field presence is, and why sacrificing your field presence to deny the other team theirs can be a very big sacrifice to make, potentially disrupting not just the other team, but also your own. The key word here is "volatile", a playstyle with high deaths can make matches very rubber-band-y, very prone to a quick sweep by a similarly aggressive player who also pushes objective and maximises their field time.
     
    #20 kiwi_tea, Aug 7, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
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