Is there a reason why brushes as a class have always been buffed for multiplayer and never nerfed?

[McSquid82]

I know this might sound hard to believe, but I checked Inkipedia for all three brushes and I noticed they've received all received nothing but buffs for multiplayer like the title says. A common buff for all three of them seems to make them more ink efficient while sliding. The Inkbrush has gotten mobility buffs in this game on top of the aforementioned ones, the Octobrush got a slight buff while swinging, and the Painbrush got a massive buff while both swinging and sliding to its ink consumption. On top of that, it got a buff to its ink trail. Now, my question is, was the entire class in general that undertuned, and did they need all those buffs? I know some people like to talk about shooter privilege (not me), but at least they've gotten nerfs. The entire brush class has consistently dodged the nerf hammer for the entire series which is crazy to me.

 

[Cephalobro]

Honestly, the brushes get it off easier than the shooters in my opinion. I have played recent games and the one game-breaking thing is buffing a weapon to the point where it can get to the other team's base in the first few seconds of the round. And brushes tend to do just that from what I have gathered. It wouldn't be as much of a problem if the game's stages were more open.

This buffing without nerfing created a huge imbalance, I know players don't like when their weapons are nerfed, but sometimes nerfing a weapon directly is necessary, especially when the stage design makes it impossible to avoid confrontation with said weapon.

Admittedly, both Splatoon 1 and Splatoon 2 had their fair share of unbalanced, but at least most of the time, the problem wasn't as bad because both games' stage designs were mostly a lot more open. But Splatoon 3 did away with open-stage design, which is the primary reason for certain weapons being able to easily exploit said design.

Overall, I agree that brushes need to be nerfed, and the way to nerf them is to increase ink consumption so they can't get to the other team's base that easily.

 

[missingno]

Brushes see very little representation in high level play. They keep getting buffed because they're not very strong, and they don't get nerfed because... they're not very strong.

 

[isaac4]

Brushes see very little representation in high level play. They keep getting buffed because they're not very strong, and they don't get nerfed because... they're not very strong.

This is basically it.
While they can be very annoying to deal with (especially in Clam Blitz) there's really no need to nerf them.
Brushes only getting buffs throughout every game and still not being picked for comp says more about how weak the weapon class is than anything else.

 

[McSquid82]

I've read through the replies and I've thought if all these buffs haven't been enough, would better fall-off damage help? The Inkbrush and Octobrush seem to be pretty set on ink consumption. The Octo in particular has improved by a full 1.8 percent while sliding, and is now a flat 3 percent while swinging, so I think it's pretty good in that regard. But all of them in particular have some of the worst fall-off damage of all the weapon classes. I know they're short range weapons, but I don't think it needs to be that harsh.

 

[EverGreen]

Brushes have some of the shortest range of all weapons in this shooter-based game. Making them weaker would simply make them unusable, even in casual play. If anything, they probably need a few more buffs, but idk which areas I'd buff them in personally.

 

[OnePotWonder]

It’s really quite simple. Nintendo doesn’t realize that some weapons just… don’t need to be good in competitive play. Brushes are and were fine, because they’ve always been strong in casual play; with their large area attacks and ability to easily close the gap against longer range weapons.
The weaknesses that prevent the class from being good in competitive play are inherently built into the core design of the weapons and their consistent kits. They will never be that good, they should never be that good, and despite that Nintendo is still trying their darnedest to make them that good. And thus always failing.

 

[McSquid82]

It’s really quite simple. Nintendo doesn’t realize that some weapons just… don’t need to be good in competitive play. Brushes are and were fine, because they’ve always been strong in casual play; with their large area attacks and ability to easily close the gap against longer range weapons.
The weaknesses that prevent the class from being good in competitive play are inherently built into the core design of the weapons and their consistent kits. They will never be that good, they should never be that good, and despite that Nintendo is still trying their darnedest to make them that good. And thus always failing.

It sounds like you have a thing against brushes. "Never will be or should be that good"? Seriously? I get that they can be annoying, but that doesn't sound like a very good take to me. It sounds like you're mad at the buffs that they've already gotten and you feel they don't deserve them. Instead of going on that bitter rant, why don't you just say what you really think from the start?

And let me counter your first statement with this: all weapons deserve to have a chance in competitive play. The fact that they see so little use in competitive play is a sign that they do need buffs. Even in casual play, especially at S Rank an in X Battles they're not nearly as strong as you think they are. It's more than just being competitive, it's about them actually being usable and not just low tier garbage. No weapon deserves that. That's why they've gotten all these buffs.

 

[OnePotWonder]

It sounds like you have a thing against brushes. "Never will be or should be that good"? Seriously? I get that they can be annoying, but that doesn't sound like a very good take to me. It sounds like you're mad at the buffs that they've already gotten and you feel they don't deserve them. Instead of going on that bitter rant, why don't you just say what you really think from the start?

I debated leaving out the “should” statement to avoid this very response.
I do dislike brushes, but my argument is rooted in logic.

And let me counter your first statement with this: all weapons deserve to have a chance in competitive play. The fact that they see so little use in competitive play is a sign that they do need buffs.

Allow me to counter your counter with Clash Blaster and Bloblobber.
Not all weapons deserve to be competitively viable. Look at the recent meta with Splattershot being dominant and tell me that it would have been worse without it. Splattershot isn’t even that bad of a weapon, but its Zooka spam being viable made the meta worse. Imagine having to deal with brushes on the regular at top level, it would simply be less fun.

the meta should be composed of weapons that are hard to use and feel good to fight both with and against. Everything being good is neither reasonable nor a good idea.

And yes, some weapons should be stuck as low tier garbage. You don’t want a Booyah Bomb-spamming Aerospray RG to ever be an option. I’m not saying the same is true of brushes, though. In their current state with all of their good kits being around mid tier, they’re fine. They do not need more buffs, and they do not need nerfs.

 

[McSquid82]

No, weapons should not be low tier garbage. Every weapon should have a chance to be played competitively if used properly. I don't care how annoying the Aerospray is, personal opinion and salt should have no say in balancing decisions, ever. I have weapon classes I don't like, either. I hate a good charger, but I respect the player behind it. Like I keep saying, that's why I'm glad players like us on this board have zero say in balancing decisions. If you reply next time, try to keep your own personal salt and opinions out of it or don't bother. If you can't back up your arguments with facts and data, I don't want to hear it.

 

[OnePotWonder]

No, weapons should not be low tier garbage. Every weapon should have a chance to be played competitively if used properly. I don't care how annoying the Aerospray is, personal opinion and salt should have no say in balancing decisions, ever. I have weapon classes I don't like, either. I hate a good charger, but I respect the player behind it. Like I keep saying, that's why I'm glad players like us on this board have zero say in balancing decisions. If you reply next time, try to keep your own personal salt and opinions out of it or don't bother. If you can't back up your arguments with facts and data, I don't want to hear it.

Kindly, find anyone else who thinks gold Aerospray should be competitively viable, and I’ll hear you out. It’s not just me, most people agree that Aerospray is in a deserved position. If they managed to give it some form of skill expression through a series of balance changes, maybe, but I’d rather have the effort go into buffing weapons that already have good skill expression like the Recycled and Splat Brellas.

 

[McSquid82]

Kindly, find anyone else who thinks gold Aerospray should be competitively viable, and I’ll hear you out. It’s not just me, most people agree that Aerospray is in a deserved position. If they managed to give it some form of skill expression through a series of balance changes, maybe, but I’d rather have the effort go into buffing weapons that already have good skill expression like the Recycled and Splat Brellas.

Are we even talking about the same weapon here, or are we talking about kits. When I say Aerospray, notice I didn't mention MG, RG, or PG. That's because I'm talking about the main weapon. The entire reason the weapon gets so many specials, whatever they may be, is because the Aerospray is such a lackluster main weapon. That's the whole reason after it's painting got completely gutted in the last game that the developers have been working so hard to undo the damage. Hence why it got its ink consumption and paint back to a degree. One thing I would agree with is reverting all of the remaining nerfs from s2 to its paint and then go from there. Buff the main a little more, I'm not sure how, but then raise its PFS. However, this has gotten off topic a bit, so I'm going to try to get back on. We're talking about brushes, so I think the Inkbrush and Octobrush need to have their fall-off damage toned down and possibly get the old MPU buff of widening their ink trail. Not by the whole thing of course, just partially.

 

[missingno]

It’s really quite simple. Nintendo doesn’t realize that some weapons just… don’t need to be good in competitive play.

I think Nintendo does realize that. They've only gotten the smallest of buffs, nothing that really had a significant impact. More than just brushes though, there's an entire category of weapons that are popular in casual play but have remained bottom tier for nearly their entire lifespan: Aerospray, Sploosh-o-Matic, Clash Blaster, Undercover Brella, Bloblobber*, etc. I do think Nintendo deliberately plays favorites with what weapons are allowed to be good.

(Yes, Blob was good on release, but after they nerfed it into the ground it was never allowed to return)

When I say Aerospray, notice I didn't mention MG, RG, or PG. That's because I'm talking about the main weapon.

Main weapons do not exist in a vacuum, you have to look at the kit as a whole. The design problem with Aerospray is that it can't do much else besides farm special, and its value is entirely dependent on what special it's farming. It's so bad at doing anything else that it's actively disincentivized from trying to engage with the enemy team, just farm because that's what you're good at. You can't fix that without completely redesigning the weapon into something that can fight, at which point it isn't Aerospray anymore. We already have Shooters that fight.

The problem with this is that it's a playstyle that sounds appealing to beginners, because it lets you feel like you're contributing while avoiding having to interact much at all with those scary opponents. But it's also one that would be very unhealthy for the game if it was allowed to be good, because it's not good to actively avoid interaction like that. See also: S2 Armor farming.

Ideally, Nintendo would never have put this type of weapon into the game in the first place. It'd be best to have a game where every weapon deserves to be competitively viable. But since this is in the game and Nintendo doesn't want to cut main weapons ever, they've opted to cover up the design mistakes by just leaving them in the trash. Let the casuals have fun with it in Turf while the top level meta remains unaffected.

The fact that it's consistently been at the bottom since S1, I do think Nintendo left it there on purpose. I think playing favorites with balancing is something game devs do more often than people realize, and I think it can be justified.

 

[McSquid82]

I think Nintendo does realize that. They've only gotten the smallest of buffs, nothing that really had a significant impact. More than just brushes though, there's an entire category of weapons that are popular in casual play but have remained bottom tier for nearly their entire lifespan: Aerospray, Sploosh-o-Matic, Clash Blaster, Undercover Brella, Bloblobber*, etc. I do think Nintendo deliberately plays favorites with what weapons are allowed to be good.

(Yes, Blob was good on release, but after they nerfed it into the ground it was never allowed to return)

Main weapons do not exist in a vacuum, you have to look at the kit as a whole. The design problem with Aerospray is that it can't do much else besides farm special, and its value is entirely dependent on what special it's farming. It's so bad at doing anything else that it's actively disincentivized from trying to engage with the enemy team, just farm because that's what you're good at. You can't fix that without completely redesigning the weapon into something that can fight, at which point it isn't Aerospray anymore. We already have Shooters that fight.

The problem with this is that it's a playstyle that sounds appealing to beginners, because it lets you feel like you're contributing while avoiding having to interact much at all with those scary opponents. But it's also one that would be very unhealthy for the game if it was allowed to be good, because it's not good to actively avoid interaction like that. See also: S2 Armor farming.

Ideally, Nintendo would never have put this type of weapon into the game in the first place. It'd be best to have a game where every weapon deserves to be competitively viable. But since this is in the game and Nintendo doesn't want to cut main weapons ever, they've opted to cover up the design mistakes by just leaving them in the trash. Let the casuals have fun with it in Turf while the top level meta remains unaffected.

The fact that it's consistently been at the bottom since S1, I do think Nintendo left it there on purpose. I think playing favorites with balancing is something game devs do more often than people realize, and I think it can be justified.

The thing is, Aerospray can fight. It's a lightweight, and has some of the best mobility in the game as far as swim speed goes. It may be a 5 shot, but its fire rate is the fastest of any shooter in the game, or any weapon for that matter. On top of that, it has an extremely fast TTK at point blank range. Some dualies can match it, but they have to roll in order to do so and their ink consumption is a lot worse. The thing is, it does have a place in the game and Nintendo is not content to to just "leave it there on purpose".

The fact that it got its ink consumption reverted back to it original S1 version is proof of that. I just think the competitive community would scream bloody murder if it ever got all of its nerfs reverted. The fact that you're talking about wanting to cut the Aerospray shows your opinion pretty clear. On top of that, none of the specials on either of Aero's kits are even close to as broken as Ink Armor was, not by a long shot. Reefslider and Booyah Bomb are pretty far calls from Curling Bomb Launcher and Baller. Blaming Aerospray when S2's meta in general was a broken mess is pretty disingenuous.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Anyways, Aerospray has gotten us a little off-topic.

I think Painbrush might be a fair candidate for the meta if they make its ink consumption a major weakness (and Wave Breaker a meaningful special). Make the Dynamo Brush actually work like Dynamo. The other two are definitely much harder to salvage, but it wouldn’t be impossible.

 

[McSquid82]

Anyways, Aerospray has gotten us a little off-topic.

I think Painbrush might be a fair candidate for the meta if they make its ink consumption a major weakness (and Wave Breaker a meaningful special). Make the Dynamo Brush actually work like Dynamo. The other two are definitely much harder to salvage, but it wouldn’t be impossible.

Its ink consumption is a major weakness, or at least it was when it first launched. The problem is, it was too ink hungry and the whole reason it had to be buffed by 25 percent both swinging and sliding. Even after those buffs, it only gets 20 swings which isn't that much. Combined with the startup, that thing is still ink hungry and definitely doesn't need any nerfs. I agree Wave Breaker needs some buffs though.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Its ink consumption is a major weakness, or at least it was when it first launched. The problem is, it was too ink hungry and the whole reason it had to be buffed by 25 percent both swinging and sliding. Even after those buffs, it only gets 20 swings which isn't that much. Combined with the startup, that thing is still ink hungry and definitely doesn't need any nerfs. I agree Wave Breaker needs some buffs though.

20 swings is more than enough. If the main gets buffed in another area such that it becomes more viable, I think it could stand to lose at least a few of them.

 

[McSquid82]

20 swings is more than enough. If the main gets buffed in another area such that it becomes more viable, I think it could stand to lose at least a few of them.

And then it would be right back where it started. It does not need any sort of nerf to its ink consumption even if it gets more buffs. When you needed to run three mains of ISM and you were still constantly refilling your tank, that was a serious problem and a sign that the weapon needed massive buffs. It's still ink hungry enough as it is now.

 

[missingno]

Nintendo is not content to to just "leave it there on purpose".

They clearly are, considering they haven't touched it at all. If they wanted it buffed, they would've done so by now.

 

[McSquid82]

They clearly are, considering they haven't touched it at all. If they wanted it buffed, they would've done so by now.

Haven't touched it all. 2.0, 2.1, 3.0, 4.1, and 8.0 of this game? You must have a different definition of touching than me, because those clearly look like buffs to me. If you think I'm lying, check Inkipedia, specifically on the Aerospray MG page. But your narrative as far at this statement goes is objectively and demonstratively false.