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No, you're not carrying bad teams, you're throwing.

Discussion in 'Regular Discussion' started by flc, Jun 6, 2015.

  1. flc

    flc Inkling Commander

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    Edit: I am not saying that games cannot be lost because of a team, and I am not saying that every loss is your fault if you are carrying but do not win. I say this repeatedly in this post and later in the thread. I am saying that if you are losing too much to rank up, there is a very good chance that this is because you are overestimating your own skill level and may not realise what carrying actually entails.

    If there's anything I've noticed on my way to A+, it's that there's a strong correlation between people who think they're carrying every game and people who are stuck in the Bs (or maybe A-). I think this comes down to a combination of two things: first, not knowing what 'carrying' actually entails (hint: going 12-4 is not carrying), and second, not recognising what is actually losing them their games (hint: it's not their team).

    I'll preface this by saying that stacked teams are a thing; sometimes you just get paired with the wrong people (4 short range on mackerel, that sort of thing) or maybe you get paired with all the lowbies in the room. But let's be real here: the former shouldn't matter if you're actually "being held back by your teams", and the latter doesn't happen much below A- because there are so many B players.

    So what gives, then? You're sitting at a cool B 40. You watch an A-rank streamer and say, "I do this every game and I keep losing". You blame your team, or maybe the game ("this map is just awful"). But here's the kicker. The plays they're making are probably more than doable for most B-rank players. But it's not what an A-rank player does that makes them A-rank. It's what they don't do: throw.

    If you are 14-2 and are holding the enemy lookout on Underpass, and then die to a splat bomb you didn't see and then lose because the other team pushes into mid and takes your team out, your team didn't lose, you threw. If you are constantly keeping the point capped while your team is off doing whatever, and you get flanked, your team didn't lose, you threw. Any time you hold some important position on the map and you lose that position for nothing, your team didn't lose, you threw. The more important the point you're holding, the more vigilant you need to be.

    Naturally, I'm lumping a lot of A-rank players into this collective whom I would agree are not great at the game. But the fact is, someone throwing an important position loses games far more than bad teams do, and I'd rather have a player who barely pulls their weight than one who gives the other team free mids. Bad teams are a fact of team shuffling, but that's the point; it's random. You can't be carried every game. For each bad team you're on, you'll be a godlike team as well. It's your job to not screw it up for the rest of your team.

    Sure, your team will occasionally throw as well. But stopping your team from throwing is what you do when you carry. If you are carrying a game, you are making sure that guy who keeps 1v3ing the enemy team with an Aerospray can keep doing what he's doing all he likes and you'll still win. Carrying is putting yourself in a position where the other team has to dedicate two or more people just to stop you from instantly blocking a push by yourself, so that even if your team is off inking your spawn point, you can still stop the other team from instantly getting control of the map. Carrying is NOT facerushing the enemy spawn point and taking three people out in an exchange. That's just the other team not expecting you to be a complete moron and paying a price. All you've done is buy your team five seconds, and if they're off doing nothing as you repeatedly insist, then five seconds isn't going to help you do a damn thing.

    So to anyone who's serious about climbing the ranks: stop blaming your team. You can't change what your team does, and you evade your own self-criticism as a result. And since self-criticism is the only way to reliably improve in a game like this, you're doing yourself a disservice by evading it. And if you still insist that it's your team's fault after all this... well, let's just say that your rank not having appreciably moved in five days is probably indicative of something.
     
    #1 flc, Jun 6, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
  2. prof

    prof Inkling

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    Is there any point of this? :) I doubt it will help someone with MY TEAM SUCK syndrome. Good read though
     
    catpokemon likes this.
  3. Alus

    Alus Senior Squid

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    Sure dude, whatever.


    Man advice like this makes me angry.


    You aren't wrong at all. If you were then that would be saying everyone in A is just a lucky player.
     
  4. DesQue_25

    DesQue_25 Inkling

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    I completely agree with what you said! The first night I was so pissed at ranked, but I went back and thought about what I was doing wrong and even changed how I was doing it and now I'm finally rising up in the ranks. Although I could see where for some players blaming their teammate for always pushing into enemy territory and dying could factor into a huge part of his team saying that they basically played 3 vs 4 for the game and I'm sure there are other circumstances, but you don't see it as much when you play ranked now.
     
  5. TheMH

    TheMH Inkling Commander

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    There is some truth in this thread. I especially agree about losing a key point means losing the match. If you are willing to put yourself in an important position you have to be able to hold it - or at least know when to retreat to keep the damage low. This happens to me on Underpass a lot. Once the enemy splats you from below and takes the elevated platform on your side, it's basically a guaranteed loss of control.

    I'm still B- rank and having my hardest time to hold it/climp up further, but as long as I see possibilites to improve my play, it's fair I guess. If everyone climbed up to A/A+ in a matter of days, the ranking system would be broken.

    Another tip: Leave and enter online rooms regularly. This minimizes the probability to get stuck with a bad team.
     
    Nintendome likes this.
  6. K7Sniper

    K7Sniper Pro Squid

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    Many are lucky, actually. With their matchmaking system, who you get stuck with really is luck of the draw until they either balance it or add premades in the game. Granted, yea, there are people who are really damn good, but to say there is no luck involved is wrong.
     
  7. DaisyFan

    DaisyFan Pro Squid

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    Good thread and read. have you seen players using stealth jump a lot in +A yet?
     
  8. GamingWarthog

    GamingWarthog Semi-Pro Squid

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    This post reminds me of the whole 'ELO hell' thing from MOBAs. I feel part of the frustration a lot of people have with teams in ranked was the false hope of not having to plan on the assumption you get a stupid team, it's going to take a while before ranked matchmaking hits that point (hopefully). I don't get claims of carrying in Splatoon honestly, this isn't like a MOBA where you have a lane to win or jungle to control. A lot of losses felt like the result of a stupid team, but none of my wins felt like the result of carrying either.
     
    FirestormNeos likes this.
  9. Grasp

    Grasp Inkster Jr.

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    This thread makes good points, but also seems to excuse the team in the process like one misstep and the match is lost. Yeah, losing a key point can spell defeat. Your team can also respond to that and cause the opposing team to lose key points. Or they can all get splatted by one dude. One good dude and his team of bads < a team of goods. And it's luck of the draw which side you end up on. Until games start grading on personal performance and not on how often One wins or loses a match, the team will ALWAYS be a part of the problem moving forward.

    This is exacerbated when the losing team player clawing for the next rank constantly tops the score on their team, though statistically it's some of the worst performers that are most likely to speak up and call out their team on being bad.
     
    McSquid likes this.
  10. Fightersword

    Fightersword Good TOs are Capitalists
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    The OP speaks a lot of truth. Though I could never put it into words, it's what has costed my team huge advantages before on certain maps. In Blackbelly skatepark for instance, I love to rollout down the narrow corridor to set up where I'm facing the opponent's halfpipes in any game mode. I always make it there before the enemy team, and either scare away or kill anyone who tries to use that choke, in almost every circumstance. Yet, every once in a while I screw up and die, sometimes really early on. Essentially I *throw* the choke and everywhere else I'm watching, and almost always without fail that results in our team quickly ending up in a huge disadvantage that could have been avoided if I'd only played just a little better or had used a little more awareness.

    Basically, from that position I can easily come up behind people who are on my side of mid who overextend towards us, as well as protect the flank so if my team is extended well they cannot come through that halfpipe area and attack them from behind. And whenever I die either from doing something stupid or getting outplayed or ganged up on from all sides, my team is always the next to fall as they get attacked on multiple sides. So I've found this job on the park very important, and even though I usually don't score top of my team doing it, and have had people say I 'shouldn't be going after kills' or 'should be more mobile painting things' (in Turf War), it's still my go to role.

    That's just one example of course, with a map which I have a very familiar strategy with. This is why the most important thing you can do in any game of Splatoon is not die, for the obvious values like being a super jump point to the fact you can do things like paint and kill, to many other not-so-immediately apparent reasons like the stuff that show up in my example and in OP's post.
     
    DakotaBonez likes this.
  11. Mayday

    Mayday Row, Row, Fight the Power!

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    The problem is a lot of people that play Ranked, especially in B-A rank, are always pushing for kills instead of map control/setups. If I'm playing anchor or holding down the zone, I don't need the entire rest of the team to rush the spawn. Like in Walleye when I'm holding the zone, I don't need 3 teammates trying to spawn camp. Their entire team is just going to slip around, come from the sides and I'm going to immediately have a 1v2-4. I'm not going to win in that situation when they also have height advantage. Best play for me is to run back to my base and wait for my team to die or an opportunity to slowly push back to the zone. Running to the rest of my team isn't a good option because we are pinched. You can't flip spawns in Splatoon. You kill the people on the zone, they will just come back behind you.

    There is the problem with Ranked. There is some truth to this, but by this logic I'm throwing because I couldn't hold the zone while being outnumbered. It should be that my team is throwing because they threw away map control
     
    #11 Mayday, Jun 6, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2015
    Flopps, Tilly, Kaliafornia and 2 others like this.
  12. Hinichii.ez.™

    Hinichii.ez.™ Is Splatoon an E-Sport or just a meme?

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    This.
     
    Sqwiddles likes this.
  13. GamingWarthog

    GamingWarthog Semi-Pro Squid

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    On a good team one mistake shouldn't be enough to lose the match. There were two matches on Arowana Mall where I had two enemies boxed in the side hallway before they quickly killed me, the first time we were never able to gain control of the Splat Zone, the second time my team was able to take advantage of two enemies being distracted and get early control of the Splat Zone.
     
  14. Mayday

    Mayday Row, Row, Fight the Power!

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    It won't always result in losing the match, but it makes the match exponentially harder for you and the team. Especially when you play a good team
     
  15. flc

    flc Inkling Commander

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    because some people do actually acknowledge this sort of thing when it's laid out in a certain way.

    naturally a lot of people will insist that it's their team all the time, but if we can get a few people from the 'denial' stage to the 'anger' stage then that's one step closer to 'acceptance'

    I'm not excusing a bad team. I said straight up: some games, the teams get stacked and you just can't win. but you have to remember, a lot of the people complaining about their teams are stuck in B-rank, which is the place where A-rank players clean up with no trouble at all.

    it's luck of the draw for any given match, but the luck is in your favour if you don't throw. if you stay in one room, you will get paired with the good players at some point. or they'll get paired with people who throw harder than your team. if you make sure that you don't throw, then all it takes is the other team to throw harder than your team does. and let me tell you, four people can throw a hell of a lot harder and easier than three.

    the thing about luck is that it cancels out after enough games. if you really are contributing to your team, you swing the odds in your favour. over enough games, you will rank up, because even if you go on a 10 loss streak and get demoted, luck dictates that at some point you should have a 10 win streak that puts you ahead.

    just to give you an idea: the chance of you being on the same team as the worst player in the room, assuming you are never this player, is 3 in 7. the chance of you being on the same team as this worst player in the room in 25 or more out of 50 games is under 7%. these numbers are entirely arbitrary and oversimplified, but odds are still that if you're stuck in a trench it's because you are part of your own problem.

    alright, so your team tries to spawn camp on walleye, fails, and you lose because of it. sure, that's your team throwing. personally I've only seen walleye spawncamping happen once with any effect, personally, but hey, it's like I said, sometimes your team does throw. and that's fine, I'm not disputing that some games are lost without any fault of your own. but that's one game. you lose 10 (or 8 or 12 or whatever) and you roll again. if you are actually good at the game, the odds of you being on the team that throws harder are lower and therefore you win more. and if you are one of those people who acknowledges that you can't hold a point and falls back to wait for your team to push out again, then you can expect to reach A+ in a reasonable amount of time. this thread would therefore not directed at you.

    this thread is directed at the people who are part of that spawn camp. they overextend, get 3 kills, but then they get caught in the spawn wave and shout "TEAM!?" at a hundred decibels.
     
    Alus likes this.
  16. JuddTheCat

    JuddTheCat Inkling Cadet

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    In Splat Zone, a lot of people like to blame teammates, however if you're not good yourself, you are part of the problem.
    A good teammate is one who protects other teammates. A good teammate is someone who sticks with their team.
    If you alone, are surrounded by 2+ enemies, and lose, then say "Where are my teammates, what are they doing?", it was your fault for not going with said teammate..
     
  17. Boidoh

    Boidoh Inkster Jr.

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    I recently have blamed my self for my team's losses. On stages like Blackbelly Skatepark, I usually stand on the high ledge on the side and then quick-scope scrubs. I get aout 12 or so kills in the first minute or so, preventing the opposing team from taking over. However, once I get rekt my whole team falls apart.... Since I'm not there quick-scoping scrubs, my whole team just falls into disarray, and we ultimatly lose the match....

    I'm not sure whether that's just my fault, or it's the team. I'd say it's mines because I wasn't supposed to get rekt, but at the same time, my team should be able to stand their own without me.

    I went from B+ all the way to C+ today, and it's all because I got hit once, then the whole team just falls apart - every single time.
     
  18. EarthBoundEnigma

    EarthBoundEnigma Inkster Jr.

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    Mostly, I lose points from disconnections and dropped players. I'm on a steady climb, other than that.
    The Gas Mask is the ideal carrying equipment, with an Inkstrike special ability, if you're a true carrier.
    If you're actually carrying, you're not dying, and even if your team is, you're building your special and staying alive and keeping the points locked down, while nuking whichever one is farther away. If you're actually carrying, you'll have few deaths and high paint points from constantly holding down the splash zones. You'll have your special meter filling constantly.
     
  19. Kayeka

    Kayeka Pro Squid

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    This thread needs to be pinned. I'm so tired of all the salty people blaming their randomly selected teams for the fact that they can't rise up. Luck always swings both ways, so eventually, the better players will rise up in the ranks. If you can't rise, then you might not be as good a player as you think you are.

    I'm also willing to admit that I'm totally throwing all the time. I got this nagging voice in my head that doesn't accept standing still, so I'm constantly pushing forward on my own. Way more often than I'd like, I end up surrounded by enemy ink and splatted, with little to show for it besides a few splats of my own.

    It worked out okay so far (B+), but I do notice that it's getting harder. So I'm in the process of switching gears. I throw out more Point Sensors, I take time to ink floors and walls in order to deny the opponent freedom of movement and improving our own, I watch out for potential advances towards our point. Most importantly, I'm learning to glance at my gamepad in order to determine where my support is needed. There's so much information in there. You see exactly where the enemy is currently pushing, and it's easy to deduce a team mate's intentions from their position and movement.

    It's still hard to fight the old instincts, but I notice my team does better whenever I manage to do so. Don't be a glory hound. Prioritise staying alive over getting splats. There's an objective that needs to be achieved, and said objective is not "kill everything".
     
  20. 1uuu

    1uuu Inkling

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    I know that this is true because my win rate is so amazingly better when I played in the weekend, after waking up well rested, than it is when I played late in the night, tired after working all day. How well I play matters a lot.

    That said however, I got really close to rage quitting when a team mate got in front of me and blocked my shot (I main splatterscope), and then we both got splatted by the same aerospray. :p

    Some teammates are really terrible at positional strategy even if they're okay at aiming though and I really wish we had more ways to communicate. "Follow me!" and "Split up!" on the d-pad would help so much already.
     

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