Peeking Techniques & why Saltspray is unsuitable for competitive play.

[Aweshucks]

I have seen a lot of hands being thrown up from you and aweshucks every time anyone from the community suggests banning something. Let them have a thorough discussion first before calling them ban happy, you might have your mind changed at the end of it all.

Yeah. I do try to warn people not to be so quick to think about banning stuff. It's a pretty strong belief of mine that we shouldn't even consider banning things without a very long period of testing. But what I don't say is that people shouldn't be discussing potential problems with the game, and I don't appreciate you implying that I do. It's important to identify issues that may need to be tested and addressed. But when people start talking about something being banned I feel the need to chime in.

 

[flc]

I just feel it's necessary to remind people to not get all whipped up about this. It's something that should come over time. It needs tested. by more that Imperious lobbies that are messing around. Like real application stuff too. And 100s of times.

Brings up a good point though. Anyone who's played CSGO or whatever other shooter games, how often are maps banned for reasons like this?

csgo has map balance built into it since it's a mr15 (max rounds 15 i.e. you play 15 rounds on each side until one team reaches 15 + 1) system. a game includes both T (terrorist) and CT (counter-terrorist) sides. you can go 4-11 on de_nuke starting T (where de_nuke is 12-3 CT favoured), which gives you a much easier time on your own CT side in spite of the massive round differential.

splatoon is currently boX (best-of-X) on a single map. saltspray being east & west side while other maps are bo1 is a possible solution, but then we'd be doing the same for every other map too without any easy way of breaking ties (whereas csgo has mr3 or mr5 overtime i.e. 30 rounds regulation, 6 or 10 rounds overtime repeated until tie is broken). it basically makes things a hell of a lot sloppier. you could have saltspray work in a mrX system, but then you run into tiebreakers as a potential issue (since splatoon would no doubt be mr3 at most, which means mr1 tiebreaker can get silly and really **** with scheduling)

EDIT: that said, de_nuke was removed for being so heavily CT-sided that winning pistol (first round of a half in CSGO where all players use pistols, gives a large advantage in the following two rounds that virtually ensures you will win them) on T gave you a ridiculous advantage in the half

EDIT 2: abbreviations

 

[flc]

Yeah. I do try to warn people not to be so quick to think about banning stuff. It's a pretty strong belief of mine that we shouldn't even consider banning things without a very long period of testing. But what I don't say is that people shouldn't be discussing potential problems with the game, and I don't appreciate you implying that I do. It's important to identify issues that may need to be tested and addressed. But when people start talking about something being banned I feel the need to chime in.

I generally agree with you, but only in the context where a map that has no obvious reason to be banned must be played on for a long time before it can be removed. A strong advantage to one side of the map is an obvious reason. Even if the advantage weren't as ridiculous as it is, the fact that it is an advantage and that it can sway matches is a good enough reason to remove it.

 

[Kbot]

words and abbrevations that the non-shooter player doesn't understand

Seriously, can I get a "If I were an alien" translation please?

 

[flc]

Seriously, can I get a "If I were an alien" translation please?

done

 

[Aweshucks]

I generally agree with you, but only in the context where a map that has no obvious reason to be banned must be played on for a long time before it can be removed. A strong advantage to one side of the map is an obvious reason. Even if the advantage weren't as ridiculous as it is, the fact that it is an advantage and that it can sway matches is a good enough reason to remove it.

Yup. You'll notice that I didn't say anything about it in this thread. Though I still think this needs more testing by other sources

 

[Mondrae205]

Either that or Nintendo adds an update that allows you to swap which hand you're holding your weapon with on the go.

The problem with being able to switch what hand you are using on the go is that it drastically affects other peeking spots on other maps. If they were to change that then they should make sure that a charger left side peeking doesn't gain anything too strong since he can now do so safely.

 

[TheMH]

I'd like to see an update which will allow us to switch the inkling's weapon hand. Pressing left stick or the never-used L button would be valid options for this imo. It would definitely deepen the game's meta.

Great topic and analysis, flc. Now I know why I always felt more comfortable to play on the left/west side of Rig. I knew this peeking technique (if you want to call it a tech) was around for some time, but I didn't imagine it having such a great influence.
I'm hesitant about banning Rig right away, though, but with the game's current state and the information we have, there won't be good alternatives. Even if you were able to counter the peek advantage, it would put you at a disadvantage, because the other team wouldn't have to worry about it.

 

[Kat]

cl_righthand 0

For real though good post, highlights some interesting dynamics about the differences between projectiles coming from your gun and projectiles coming from the camera/your face. A couple of third person shooters made use of some very interesting fov/camera mechanics that pretty much removed this corner advantage issue.

Believe it or not however CS:GO does actually have a peeking side advantage, albeit a very small one, small to the point that even I haven't looked into it. Sadly I don't actually play Splatoon so I can't really comment on how this peeking advantage stacks up compared to the pacing and movement options.

 

[Jeane JWE]

cl_righthand 0
Believe it or not however CS:GO does actually have a peeking side advantage

Bullets in the source engine are fired from the player's eye. This is even noted in the OP. There is no side advantage, and cl_righthand is an entirely client sided variable that only affects your viewmodel for user comfort.

 

[Kat]

Bullets in the source engine are fired from the player's eye. This is even noted in the OP. There is no side advantage, and cl_righthand is an entirely client sided variable that only affects your viewmodel for user comfort.

It's why I said 'for real though' right after rather than just going right onto the next point, I was kidding. I'm almost insulted you came to the conclusion that I wasn't joking, I'm not that dumb.

 

[Jeane JWE]

It's why I said 'for real though' right after rather than just going right onto the next point, I was kidding. I'm almost insulted you came to the conclusion that I wasn't joking, I'm not that dumb.

And then this "peeking side advantage" that doesn't exist is an epilogue to a vague joke or something? Well if you say so.

 

[Deleted Member]

Well, Saltspray Rig definitely needs a suspect test to evaluate its competitive viability in tournaments and wars.

 

[Kat]

And then this "peeking side advantage" that doesn't exist is an epilogue to a vague joke or something? Well if you say so.

Take dust2 for example. CT peeks long doors on A. Because the CT can stand further away from the corner than the T side player can the CT player can actually see the T player first. Allowing safe info gathering etc. Therefore the CT side has an advantage when peeking that spot. Which is what I was referring to when I said a peeking side advantage. Watch this handy dandy video if you feel like I'm still lying.

 

[Agosta44]

Personally I don't think it really makes that big of a difference. I hope they change the map either way to make it less of an uphill battle to get into mid.

 

[MasterYoshidino]

It makes a difference. Subtle but very obvious when you peek to your right and pull of a very fast sniper shot. It can be done so fast no human can react to your shot but this only applies to right-handed peeking.

 

[ThatsSo]

Why Saltspray is unsuitable for any play:
It's Saltspray

 

[BarneyLTD]

You raise a very valid point on this stage and I can see where your coming from but in a match the opposite side is assessable to the other team so its an advantage for all teams

Another factor is if its you can assume where these squids will use this slight advantage and still punish them- there's more then one way to skin a Judd :-P

I think it should still be a competitive map - if we look at it as if it was a sports match (such as football) = its less of an advantage then playing at home (your stadium with your fans)

 

[Damandatwin]

You raise a very valid point on this stage and I can see where your coming from but in a match the opposite side is assessable to the other team so its an advantage for all teams

it is much easier to gain and maintain control of one side than the other.

Another factor is if its you can assume where these squids will use this slight advantage and still punish them- there's more then one way to skin a Judd :p

predictability only matters if it's punishable. this gives one side a safety advantage with no drawback.

I think it should still be a competitive map - if we look at it as if it was a sports match (such as football) = its less of an advantage then playing at home (your stadium with your fans)

just because one game isn't fair doesn't mean we should give up on the idea of any other game being fair

 

[BarneyLTD]

it is much easier to gain and maintain control of one side than the other.


predictability only matters if it's punishable. this gives one side a safety advantage with no drawback.


just because one game isn't fair doesn't mean we should give up on the idea of any other game being fair

I can see where your coming from -but a great team will overcome this "disadvantage" and win anyway so it doesn't make that much of a difference and any team that complains they lost cause on the wrong side are not a good team