Stacking Damage Up on .52 Gal

[Kupo]

As I'm becoming more involved in competitive play and tournaments, I think it's about time that I should try settling this debate of mine I've had for a while. Is stacking Damage Up on .52 Gal worth having over other abilities?

I'm well aware with the typical Damage Up stacking on .52 Gal to counter lots of Defense Up, which is becoming more and more popular recently. But, does dedicating nearly all of your abilities to Damage Up just to counter an admittedly low portion of gear builds seem worth it instead of having a variety of other abilities too? What do you think? I'm currently an S Rank player, so I prefer advice from S+ players, or at least are more experienced with this Damage Up build.

 

[Justice]

As I'm becoming more involved in competitive play and tournaments, I think it's about time that I should try settling this debate of mine I've had for a while. Is stacking Damage Up on .52 Gal worth having over other abilities?

I'm well aware with the typical Damage Up stacking on .52 Gal to counter lots of Defense Up, which is becoming more and more popular recently. But, does dedicating nearly all of your abilities to Damage Up just to counter an admittedly low portion of gear builds seem worth it instead of having a variety of other abilities too? What do you think? I'm currently an S Rank player, so I prefer advice from S+ players, or at least are more experienced with this Damage Up build.

I can answer this very easily considering I am an advanced with 52gal. I would recommend 1 damage main and 3 subs of damage at the very least. What this does it lets you barely 2 shot any person that has 3 mains of defense or less. If you have any less damage you will have to 3 shot which is very annoying to do. What damage also does as a bonus you can get through other splash walls quicker which is very useful vs 96 gals and other 52gals.

In my personal opinion 2 damage is REQUIRED for 52 gal (1 main 3 subs). I would make a set with more than that vs certain teams/players that you know will run more than 3 to counter it but 3 shot 52 is not ideal to have.

 

[NotAPerso]

Depends on how important you feel the two hit kill is. If you want to counter the average defense user then you'll need to dedicate around half of your gear build to damage up (2 main 3 sub). If you want to counter any minimum defense user the thresholds are 1 damage sub counters 1 defense main (low investment for low reward), 1 damage main 1 sub counters 2 defense main, and 1 damage main 3 sub counters 3 defense main.

I'm an S+ with heavy defense gear and I'd suggest you do have a build dedicated to damage up as you'll lose engagements with heavy defense users often and you don't lose too much in the sacrifice of other abilities. (you could even try a ridiculous build that combines defense and damage up to counter other .52 Gal.)

 

[tazz]

When doing solo I'd recommend at least the equivalent of 2 mains, as defense up is relevant in higher ranks. For tournaments, I suggest you have multiple sets, some stacking damage up, so that you can switch according to the other team.

The two hit kill is incredibly important.

 

[Kupo]

Yay! I'm so happy this actually got some repiles. Thank you everyone! I didn't know that you only had to have the equivalent of 2 Damage Up mains to counter a player with 3 Defense Up mains, instead of 3 Damage Up mains to counter 3 Defense Up mains. I'll work on my new build right away.

 

[MrL1193]

The Japanese have done some extensive testing of this subject with various weapons (including the Bamboozler's charged+uncharged combo and even some Burst Bomb combos).

Tables and graphs: http://wikiwiki.jp/splatoon2ch/?%A5%AE%A5%A2%A5%D1%A5%EF%A1%BC%B8%A1%BE%DA
Translation: http://pastebin.com/WrtAJza1

(Note that on the tables, each sub ability is valued at 3 points and each main ability is valued at 10 points. Thus, 1 main ability is actually worth slightly more than 3 sub abilities.)

Some notable thresholds for the .52 Gal:

1 sub of Damage Up beats 1 main of Defense Up.
1 main of Damage Up beats 1 main and 3 subs of Defense Up (but NOT 2 mains of Defense Up).
1 main and 3 subs of Damage Up beats 3 mains of Defense Up.
1 main and 5 subs of Damage up beats 3 mains and 3 subs of Defense Up.
2 mains and 3 subs of Damage Up beats 2 mains and 9 subs of Defense Up (the maximum possible while keeping Ink Resistance or Cold Blooded).
3 mains of Damage Up beats 3 mains and 6 subs of Defense Up.
2 mains and 4 subs of Damage Up beats any amount of Defense Up.

Also, if you're the sort who likes knowing what the "pros" are using, I can tell you that Yugo (a Japanese .52 Gal main on top-ranked competitive team Omohide) usually uses 1 main and 6 subs of Damage Up, which beats 3 mains and 5 subs of Defense Up.

 

[Kupo]

The Japanese have done some extensive testing of this subject with various weapons (including the Bamboozler's charged+uncharged combo and even some Burst Bomb combos).

Tables and graphs: http://wikiwiki.jp/splatoon2ch/?%A5%AE%A5%A2%A5%D1%A5%EF%A1%BC%B8%A1%BE%DA
Translation: http://pastebin.com/WrtAJza1

(Note that on the tables, each sub ability is valued at 3 points and each main ability is valued at 10 points. Thus, 1 main ability is actually worth slightly more than 3 sub abilities.)

Some notable thresholds for the .52 Gal:

1 sub of Damage Up beats 1 main of Defense Up.
1 main of Damage Up beats 1 main and 3 subs of Defense Up (but NOT 2 mains of Defense Up).
1 main and 3 subs of Damage Up beats 3 mains of Defense Up.
1 main and 5 subs of Damage up beats 3 mains and 3 subs of Defense Up.
2 mains and 3 subs of Damage Up beats 2 mains and 9 subs of Defense Up (the maximum possible while keeping Ink Resistance or Cold Blooded).
3 mains of Damage Up beats 3 mains and 6 subs of Defense Up.
2 mains and 4 subs of Damage Up beats any amount of Defense Up.

Also, if you're the sort who likes knowing what the "pros" are using, I can tell you that Yugo (a Japanese .52 Gal main on top-ranked competitive team Omohide) usually uses 1 main and 6 subs of Damage Up, which beats 3 mains and 5 subs of Defense Up.

Aww, thank you so much for leaving this information just to help me! I will certainly keep this in mind when thinking of Damage Up and Defense Up.

 

[Creator438]

The Japanese have done some extensive testing of this subject with various weapons (including the Bamboozler's charged+uncharged combo and even some Burst Bomb combos).

Tables and graphs: http://wikiwiki.jp/splatoon2ch/?%A5%AE%A5%A2%A5%D1%A5%EF%A1%BC%B8%A1%BE%DA
Translation: http://pastebin.com/WrtAJza1

(Note that on the tables, each sub ability is valued at 3 points and each main ability is valued at 10 points. Thus, 1 main ability is actually worth slightly more than 3 sub abilities.)

Some notable thresholds for the .52 Gal:

1 sub of Damage Up beats 1 main of Defense Up.
1 main of Damage Up beats 1 main and 3 subs of Defense Up (but NOT 2 mains of Defense Up).
1 main and 3 subs of Damage Up beats 3 mains of Defense Up.
1 main and 5 subs of Damage up beats 3 mains and 3 subs of Defense Up.
2 mains and 3 subs of Damage Up beats 2 mains and 9 subs of Defense Up (the maximum possible while keeping Ink Resistance or Cold Blooded).
3 mains of Damage Up beats 3 mains and 6 subs of Defense Up.
2 mains and 4 subs of Damage Up beats any amount of Defense Up.

Also, if you're the sort who likes knowing what the "pros" are using, I can tell you that Yugo (a Japanese .52 Gal main on top-ranked competitive team Omohide) usually uses 1 main and 6 subs of Damage Up, which beats 3 mains and 5 subs of Defense Up.

Well this really sheds light on misconceptions that I've had about damage up vs defense up! I used to think you needed a damage main to counter a defense main, but not the case. Well, that's makes weapons that can have time to kill reduced much more viable imo. It makes sense because damage up increases ur damage by more than defense up increases your defense (so it confused me when I learned the damage up vs defense up thing, but now it makes sense). This will make building my hyper offensive/defensive set a lot easier!

 

[xXDR.SWOOCEXx]

First of all, I have yet to see anyone "dedicate all of their slots" to damage up. There are two reasons to use damage up on this weapon:

1. The .52 is amazing in that it kills in 12 frames. This means that it is tied with the Carbon Roller for the fastest time to kill. Using some damage up ensures quick splats.

2. Damage up makes the .52 fall-off damage a more reliable source of splats.

 

[Zeriel00]

Noob here,
but I don't see how running so many damage ups is beneficial when both Splash Wall and Killer Wail don't benefit from them.
I think more than one sub is situational, what if you don't encounter any defense users? that's a lot of wasted slots...

 

[Flareth]

It's preventive medicine, basically. Just 3 subs of Defense Up is enough to prevent a .52/.96 Gal from splatting you in two hits. They'll have to do it in 3, which can be problematic considering the weapons' slower rate of fire. Luckily, they don't need that much Damage Up investment to counteract a lot of Defense Up. A single main and 3 subs worth of Damage Up can counter 3 mains worth of Defense Up; that's enough for the .52/.96 Gal to keep a consistent 2-shot splat whilst leaving the rest of your slots open.

On a side note, the only people I regularly see with near-maximum Damage Up investment are charger users, and that's got less to do with Defense Up and more with how that particular weapon class works.

 

[Zeriel00]

It's preventive medicine, basically. Just 3 subs of Defense Up is enough to prevent a .52/.96 Gal from splatting you in two hits. They'll have to do it in 3, which can be problematic considering the weapons' slower rate of fire. Luckily, they don't need that much Damage Up investment to counteract a lot of Defense Up. A single main and 3 subs worth of Damage Up can counter 3 mains worth of Defense Up; that's enough for the .52/.96 Gal to keep a consistent 2-shot splat whilst leaving the rest of your slots open.

On a side note, the only people I regularly see with near-maximum Damage Up investment are charger users, and that's got less to do with Defense Up and more with how that particular weapon class works.

Exactly, chargers benefit from Damage, charging speed, Splash bomb damage and even their bomb rush specials, but .52 don't benefit from ANY of this and only use it as preventive measures. So how many people do you see running with 3 defense up Mains? not many, that's why I think having only one Damage up sub would be enough for most situations. Just one sub can negate 3 subs of defense or 1 main, if the opponent has more than that then that's not very common and not worth sacrificing all of your slots on what's possibly the worst/most situational ability in the game.

I mean everyone has their own style, and I'm a noob, but from what I see, with .52 and Inkwall is best to run walking speed and Ink savers, along with other abilities you may want like Ink resist, Cold Blooded, Ninja Squid etc.

 

[Green Waffles]

I'd only consider it in tournament play IF you know (or suspect?) an opposing squad/squid will be stacking defense.

It (defense up) would pop up uncommonly(not rarely) in S+ back when I was in it in spring, and I still see it every now and again in S...
But that was still not often enough to make me consider reverting to super-ultra-mega-pre-nerf-e-liter-bazooka-damage stacking.

DISCLAIMER: I don't main .52. I'm an all-around player.

 

[Ryuji]

Exactly, chargers benefit from Damage, charging speed, Splash bomb damage and even their bomb rush specials, but .52 don't benefit from ANY of this and only use it as preventive measures. So how many people do you see running with 3 defense up Mains? not many, that's why I think having only one Damage up sub would be enough for most situations. Just one sub can negate 3 subs of defense or 1 main, if the opponent has more than that then that's not very common and not worth sacrificing all of your slots on what's possibly the worst/most situational ability in the game.

I mean everyone has their own style, and I'm a noob, but from what I see, with .52 and Inkwall is best to run walking speed and Ink savers, along with other abilities you may want like Ink resist, Cold Blooded, Ninja Squid etc.

In high level play it's generally the Tentatek/Octoshot as well as other .52 users I see the most having the most Defense Up, usually having more than 2 mains and a few subs. This is because they are often in the thick of action and are therefore the likeliest to take the most damage. Wearing all that Damage Up is to counter these particular players. While you are right in that there aren't a lot of players with that much Defense, it's still nice to have enough Damage Up on in order to account for them. There are numerous times where I couldn't get a kill because that person was wearing on excessive amount of Defense. So having a lot of Damage Up is never a waste, as another kill makes a huge difference, as it takes slightly more than 8 seconds to respawn(7 second splat cam, 1.5 second respawn animation). That's 8.5 seconds of them not being in the game, which makes it a 4v3 for that amount of time. So as you can see it's pretty significant even having just one player down.

 

[Zeriel00]

In high level play it's generally the Tentatek/Octoshot as well as other .52 users I see the most having the most Defense Up, usually having more than 2 mains and a few subs. This is because they are often in the thick of action and are therefore the likeliest to take the most damage. Wearing all that Damage Up is to counter these particular players. While you are right in that there aren't a lot of players with that much Defense, it's still nice to have enough Damage Up on in order to account for them. There are numerous times where I couldn't get a kill because that person was wearing on excessive amount of Defense. So having a lot of Damage Up is never a waste, as another kill makes a huge difference, as it takes slightly more than 8 seconds to respawn(7 second splat cam, 1.5 second respawn animation). That's 8.5 seconds of them not being in the game, which makes it a 4v3 for that amount of time. So as you can see it's pretty significant even having just one player down.

But there's also diminishing returns, like just using one damage up sub cancels 1 defense main or 3 defense subs, (That's a lot for just one tiny sub) but in order to counter more you need exponentially more damage ups that are completely useless for everything else since .52 with Splash wall and KW don't benefit from any damage ups. So let's say you get one kill from that one guy who ran full defense because you went full Damage Ups, but what if you went Ink saver main or fast swimming speed, running speed, cold blooded, Ninja squid etc. etc. and you got a lot more kills (or prevented yourself from dying) on many situations that are more common than finding a defense stacking guy. Especially the .52 that uses so much ink, maybe you got more damage but then you ran out of ink and die or you get an Ink saver that allows you to throw a splash wall and gives you some kills. There's a lot of possibilities that can get you kills besides having extra damage.

I' think Damage up is a waste to stack with anything but Chargers and other skills are more beneficial in getting you kills in more common instances, but that's just my .2 cents, I'm just a noob lol

 

[MrL1193]

The .52 Gal isn't very ink-hungry at all. In fact, it's comparable to the Splattershot or even slightly more efficient, if I recall correctly.

The .96 Gal, on the other hand, does have ink efficiency issues, so some people do like to run Ink Savers on it. However, the .96 also has the slowest fire rate out of all the regular shooters, which makes losing 2HKO power much more costly.

You also have to bear in mind that diminishing returns affect Defense Up users as well. In fact, since Defense Up users need to stack significantly more of their ability than the Damage Up users, the Defense Up users are more strongly affected by diminishing returns. This essentially means that as you stack more and more Damage Up, the amount of Defense Up that you can counter increases by more than the amount of Damage Up you're adding.

 

[Zeriel00]

The .52 Gal isn't very ink-hungry at all. In fact, it's comparable to the Splattershot or even slightly more efficient, if I recall correctly.

The .96 Gal, on the other hand, does have ink efficiency issues, so some people do like to run Ink Savers on it. However, the .96 also has the slowest fire rate out of all the regular shooters, which makes losing 2HKO power much more costly.

You also have to bear in mind that diminishing returns affect Defense Up users as well. In fact, since Defense Up users need to stack significantly more of their ability than the Damage Up users, the Defense Up users are more strongly affected by diminishing returns. This essentially means that as you stack more and more Damage Up, the amount of Defense Up that you can counter increases by more than the amount of Damage Up you're adding.

The .52s are ink hungry too because of their sub weapons, the seeker drains the whole thing and the Splash wall allows you a couple of shots but it also
prevents you from refilling your ink for 3 whole seconds. I think some Ink savers would be better than damage ups since a single damage up sub already can counter 3 defense subs or 1 defense main.

 

[MrL1193]

Again, you're confusing the .52 with the .96. The .96 is the one that only has a few shots left in the tank after you throw out a sub weapon. The .52 has considerably more shots left; it's enough for people to play around the Splash Wall's ink consumption just fine, which is why people don't bother with Ink Savers on the .52.

The .52 Deco has Seekers as its sub, which adds another way for Damage Up to be beneficial. If you stack a very high amount of Damage Up, you can make the "near" blast radius of the Seeker deal over 100 damage, allowing you to sometimes score kills with indirect hits.

Yet another way that Damage Up can help is when you're trying to hit enemies with arcing shots. Under these circumstances, your shots deal less damage than normal; thus, Damage Up is necessary if you want to maintain 2HKO capability.

Oh, and it's also worth noting that more Damage Up means more damage dealt to Splash Walls and the Rainmaker's shield. Smaller benefits, but benefits nonetheless.

 

[Zeriel00]

Again, you're confusing the .52 with the .96. The .96 is the one that only has a few shots left in the tank after you throw out a sub weapon. The .52 has considerably more shots left; it's enough for people to play around the Splash Wall's ink consumption just fine, which is why people don't bother with Ink Savers on the .52.

The .52 Deco has Seekers as its sub, which adds another way for Damage Up to be beneficial. If you stack a very high amount of Damage Up, you can make the "near" blast radius of the Seeker deal over 100 damage, allowing you to sometimes score kills with indirect hits.

Yet another way that Damage Up can help is when you're trying to hit enemies with arcing shots. Under these circumstances, your shots deal less damage than normal; thus, Damage Up is necessary if you want to maintain 2HKO capability.

Oh, and it's also worth noting that more Damage Up means more damage dealt to Splash Walls and the Rainmaker's shield. Smaller benefits, but benefits nonetheless.

I'm not confusing anything, I tested Damage up extensively on the .52 and let me tell you is nearly useless,
Stacking Damage up improves your ink fallout damage equivalent to a whopping 3 steps of range,
also a single sub can beat a defense main but in order to beat more than that you need to stack damage ups
and waste your precious slots and what if your opponents don't have any defense ups? you just wasted
a bunch of skills! not worth it in my opinion, but one Ink saver sub (main) gives you 2 seconds of extra
firing, nothing great either but at least slightly better than damage up and it benefits the .52 because
Seeker and Ink Wall are some of the most ink hungry subs.

Right now I'm running 1 damage up sub and nothing more, the rest I use Running and Swimming speed with
Ink resistance and Ninja Squid, but everyone should use what works best for them.

 

[MrL1193]

I don't like to be blunt, but didn't you start off by claiming to be a noob? Your signature says that you're Level 21 and Rank B. Assuming that that's true, don't you think your experience with the game has been a little short for you to be deciding that you already know what works best for the .52? It's only natural to expect that higher-level matches will be different from what you've seen so far. Ink Savers might seem more attractive to you right now, but you might change your mind once you work your way up a bit.

I'm not saying this to belittle you. After all, there are also a few competitive players out there who don't bother using much Damage Up. But at the very least, they've chosen to do so after experiencing higher-level matches for themselves. You haven't had a chance to do that yet. So until then, just keep an open mind, all right?

The uses for Damage Up that have been listed here are all valid (including falloff damage; I can think of at least one high-profile player who went as far as running Damage Up on the .96 back when its 2HKO was guaranteed without Damage Up). However, probably the most important one is countering Defense Up. Needing an extra shot in order to splat your opponent really does have an impact; I've seen competitive players lose matches because of it. That's why players are willing to give up the small, guaranteed benefits of other abilities for the sake of avoiding the much bigger problem of repeatedly losing 1v1's to enemies with Defense Up. If you think you'll be able to get away with using less Damage Up, then go ahead; just know that you're taking a chance by doing so.