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What do you think is the best weapon in Splatoon?

Award

Squid Savior From the Future
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I have a hard time placing the Hydra between defense and support, it is almost a charger, but not quite. It really doesn't have quite enough ink coverage for me to be support as I think of it, more defense, putting enemies in bad positions, holding the line, but not the same level of map control I think of supports having. Still a good weapon, just hard to categorize for me, and I don't know if I call it the best, but I think Splatoon is way more about team comps, and team dynamics, than weapon choice of a single player, so this thread is a little silly to me anyway, but I love theory crafting! :D
Fair enough. I generally consider the defense weapons to be the support weapons, so when I see support I immediately think of that. But where, with an eliter, I wouldn't DARE try to press forward with it, Hydra really can. And I tend to actually get higher kills more easily with it than eliter, though I think that's where a lot of people misunderstand eliter's role entirely: It's not really about racking up splats, it's about controlling the pathways, and thus, a splat you didn't need to make because they left your range is as good as one you made (Thus, pure support.), where Hydra's more about chewing through everything that dare approach. Eliters can get cornered and have to keep falling back if pressured too much. Hydras can just eat into the assault. And I only just discovered the fact that splash walls are almost useless against it ;)

Based on your definition though, I'd agree. It's true defense, not support.

I also agree that Splatoon is more about team comp. Which makes it ever more inexplicable why the matchmaker seems to go out of its way to match 3 of the same weapon on any team (often making me wait 2-3 minutes for a match just to stack me with a bunch of the same weapon....
 

birdiebee

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I stand by Splattershot Jr as most versatile. If I'm going into a map/mode combo where I'm unsure of what I should do, I can wield SSJ and feel confident that I won't get *entirely* annihilated. It's always what I'll go to first, see what areas might benefit from more range/defense/firepower, and then try out something different if I feel I can improve.

Zoning with splat bombs, nice fire rate allows for quick and sneaky maneuverabiltiy for me. I've escaped some sure-death situations with that little guy. And I think Bubbler has few situations where I can't get any use out of it. TC, ride the Tower through a tight spot (end of Kelp, or the 50-30 point range of Mahi Mahi, or 40-20 range on Walleye). RM, give Bubbler to your whole team, get that Rainmaker and push. They'll love you for it. SZ, Bubbler can be as good as a bomb rush for getting control back of the zone.

I just think its so damn trusty and reliable. Are there more fierce/intimidating/destructive weapons out there? Of course. But I'm just a lil squid tryin to get by in this cruel world
 

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Squid Savior From the Future
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I stand by Splattershot Jr as most versatile. If I'm going into a map/mode combo where I'm unsure of what I should do, I can wield SSJ and feel confident that I won't get *entirely* annihilated. It's always what I'll go to first, see what areas might benefit from more range/defense/firepower, and then try out something different if I feel I can improve.

Zoning with splat bombs, nice fire rate allows for quick and sneaky maneuverabiltiy for me. I've escaped some sure-death situations with that little guy. And I think Bubbler has few situations where I can't get any use out of it. TC, ride the Tower through a tight spot (end of Kelp, or the 50-30 point range of Mahi Mahi, or 40-20 range on Walleye). RM, give Bubbler to your whole team, get that Rainmaker and push. They'll love you for it. SZ, Bubbler can be as good as a bomb rush for getting control back of the zone.

I just think its so damn trusty and reliable. Are there more fierce/intimidating/destructive weapons out there? Of course. But I'm just a lil squid tryin to get by in this cruel world
Oh. So you're one of THOSE, huh? o_O :p

I've developed a hatred of Jr.s with bubblers the same way many learn to hate .96 gals and eliters with burst bombs. Generally I respect anyone that can hit with them because their killing ability is....awful, at least in my hands. The horrible aim gives a slow ttk at range, and I tend to want to close in like a sploosh, which is a bad idea. But every time, when there's that annoying S+ in TW that just devastates us completely it's always a Jr., and every single time you go to fight it has that stupid bubbler up. I almost think it's broken since that weapon charges the bubbler so much faster than other bubbled weapons, it lets users spam it far too much. Meanwhile my CHydra with a spc charge up main gets like 2 bubblers per match. :p
 

birdiebee

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Oh. So you're one of THOSE, huh? o_O :p

I've developed a hatred of Jr.s with bubblers the same way many learn to hate .96 gals and eliters with burst bombs. Generally I respect anyone that can hit with them because their killing ability is....awful, at least in my hands. The horrible aim gives a slow ttk at range, and I tend to want to close in like a sploosh, which is a bad idea. But every time, when there's that annoying S+ in TW that just devastates us completely it's always a Jr., and every single time you go to fight it has that stupid bubbler up. I almost think it's broken since that weapon charges the bubbler so much faster than other bubbled weapons, it lets users spam it far too much. Meanwhile my CHydra with a spc charge up main gets like 2 bubblers per match. :p
I'm certain that on average I get 1/2 - 2/3 of my kills with bombs using SSJ. Haha. I understand its not that well-suited for 1-on-1 combat, but you can really zip around with it. And you're right, it does charge bubbler ridiculously fast. And you're right! It's kinda darn broken! But I'm really struggling in S rank rooms so I really need the boost xD

Other weapons I frequent are Sloshing Machine .52 Gal/Deco, N-Zap 85, and situationally Slosher Deco, Aerospray MG/RG
I really enjoy Carbon Rollers too but I really can't compete when I compare how I use them to most other Carbon mains... haha..
 

HypernovaSoul

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It's kind of a convoluted question, "What is the best weapon in Splatoon," because Splatoon is mostly (re: mostly) well-balanced and different weapon types can excel more so in different modes and situations. There are weapons that I personally believe to be OP (Luna Blasters, E-Liters), though I'm hesitant to call them the "best" weapons in the game.

I would say one weapon class that has a solid combination of well-roundedness and reliable versatility for many situations is most Splattershots. It's interesting that it's the weapon class you get at the very beginning of the game, yet it's among the most reliable and adaptable weapons even in competitive play. They come with highly useful Specials (Bubbler, Inkzooka) and great zoning subs (Splat Bombs, Suction Bombs). Good range, don't take too many shots to kill (or, y'know, kill absurdly fast if they're Tentatek), pretty easy to pick up & play. I don't generally use them lol, but overall I would say they're the most well-rounded and reliable weapons in most situations.

Other weapons are more powerful / trickier in key scenarios, but Splattershots can adapt to most situations. If we're talking pure power, I'd say Gals or Dynamo. For rushdown/flanks, Krak-On Roller or Octobrush Nouveau. For pressure...probably blasters, though I kind of despise them and speaking any praise of them makes me feel as though I've chugged vinegar.
 

Award

Squid Savior From the Future
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I'm certain that on average I get 1/2 - 2/3 of my kills with bombs using SSJ. Haha. I understand its not that well-suited for 1-on-1 combat, but you can really zip around with it. And you're right, it does charge bubbler ridiculously fast. And you're right! It's kinda darn broken! But I'm really struggling in S rank rooms so I really need the boost xD

Other weapons I frequent are Sloshing Machine .52 Gal/Deco, N-Zap 85, and situationally Slosher Deco, Aerospray MG/RG
I really enjoy Carbon Rollers too but I really can't compete when I compare how I use them to most other Carbon mains... haha..
LOL, I tried it out again today, and did a little better than last time, but I'm still terrible with it. I'm used to zoning my enemies into 1v1 battles, and I kept getting trashed by a splattershot. How do you HIT anyone with this thing?? I don't mean to say it's bad...I've been completely trashed and spawncamped by bunny hopping S+ Jr users....but I just can't figure out how they make it happen other than spamming the stupid bubbler and doing rushdowns. It's like THEY can hit me when they shoot with it, but when I shoot with it it just gives this anemic spray that makes the Aerospray look like a Killer Wail Launcher :confused: I'd like to learn how to use it better simply because I have a compulsion to become decent with any weapon I get killed by a lot ;) I know it CAN be used well. I just can't make it do it! With the wide spray, is there some trick to actually splatting someone before they splat you?

That said, like the dynamo's wide ohko arc since it's so easily abused by skilled users, it really is kind of broken - and its the first weapon you get in the game, absolutely free!

If I need speed, I usually go for sploosh, splash, carbon. I can HIT things with those :p I like sloshing machine, but I hate button spamming. .52 I always think I hate ,but end up enjoying when I try it. N-Zap 85 I really like, but never end up playing it. The range is surprising though. I do love my Aerospray MG though! RG's not bad but the wasted sub just seems so wrong. Mines...

LOL, how do you use carbons? They're kind of...spastic. I love carbon but I can't play it for hours like I can eliter & CHydra....the fast speed gets dizzying for a while :D

I might have to move both SS Pro & DS into my mains list. I'm really discovering how much I can love those...especially DS. So balanced...it can be used in every situation.


I would say one weapon class that has a solid combination of well-roundedness and reliable versatility for many situations is most Splattershots. It's interesting that it's the weapon class you get at the very beginning of the game, yet it's among the most reliable and adaptable weapons even in competitive play. They come with highly useful Specials (Bubbler, Inkzooka) and great zoning subs (Splat Bombs, Suction Bombs). Good range, don't take too many shots to kill (or, y'know, kill absurdly fast if they're Tentatek), pretty easy to pick up & play. I don't generally use them lol, but overall I would say they're the most well-rounded and reliable weapons in most situations.
You might be mixing the Jr with the vanilla SS. Vanilla SS has Burst Bombs & Burst Bomb Rush, Tentatek/Octoshot has Suction Bombs & Inkzooka. It's the Jr. that has Splat Bombs & Bubbler ;) Unless you're including all "splattershots" in which case, don't forget the Pro & Forge! :)

Other weapons are more powerful / trickier in key scenarios, but Splattershots can adapt to most situations. If we're talking pure power, I'd say Gals or Dynamo. For rushdown/flanks, Krak-On Roller or Octobrush Nouveau. For pressure...probably blasters, though I kind of despise them and speaking any praise of them makes me feel as though I've chugged vinegar.
Luna aside, it gets tons of hate though it's difficult to really use very well, but the other blasters are exceedingly difficult to use well, and while a very good blaster user is devastating, I don't often see very good blaster users. Heck I hardly see many blaster users at all outside TC. I love them, but I love all the hard to use weapons :D
 

sammich

Inkling Cadet
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Wow, that's truly impressive. Among all the S+'s I see even on Splatfest days when I know the team they're against is so utterly useless that they might as well through THEMSELVES over the water I don't believe I've ever seen any player post a score that high. The two I saw get close, one was an eliter, one was a TTK. All I can say is the players must have been REALLY awful for an eliter to get >20. :D Doing with a squiffer might be most impressive of all!

I admit I haven't spent too much time with inkmines, but I bought New Squiffer because I got great ideas like those in my head, tried to put it in practice, and it just wasn't working out. The mines would explode before anyone stepped on them, or they'd cover them with ink and explode on their own and it wasn't getting much done other than drain me of ink. You make me want to go back and try it again. I like the squiffer, but the two kits just don't click with it for me. Bamboozler got the better kits IMO. Point sensors are great in the right situations though.
i did the same thing with the squiffer you did, attempting to branch over to the new squiffer... and after a lot of time with both, the new squiffer is honestly not as good in its current state. it has some stages that it does nicely on where enemies get funneled towards ink mines a little better (moray and triggerfish mostly), and of course tower control mode... but for the most part ink mines are too ignorable even without the ever popular run speed up / swim speed up abilities.

with its short range, the squiffer is already really vulnerable to ambushes. the classic attempts to remedy this, but the new squiffer's kit just leaves it more vulnerable? ink mines have defensive uses, but depending on them usually means you aren't taking advantage of the squiffer's mobility. inkzooka helps you reach enemy chargers and high places you can't see well, but it also makes you a sitting duck. without any buffs to inkmines or the squiffer in general, it's inherently a risky kit unless you have specific conditions (narrow passages and/or tower control).

*shrugs*

-----------------------

my opinion for best weapon is probably the e-liter (both but mostly vanilla) or whichever gal it is with the ink wall and kraken. both are hard to approach, have strong defensive capabilities even if you approach, kill quickly, and handle team support well through their kits. they are low-risk weapons with high reward.
 
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HypernovaSoul

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LOL, I tried it out again today, and did a little better than last time, but I'm still terrible with it. I'm used to zoning my enemies into 1v1 battles, and I kept getting trashed by a splattershot. How do you HIT anyone with this thing?? I don't mean to say it's bad...I've been completely trashed and spawncamped by bunny hopping S+ Jr users....but I just can't figure out how they make it happen other than spamming the stupid bubbler and doing rushdowns. It's like THEY can hit me when they shoot with it, but when I shoot with it it just gives this anemic spray that makes the Aerospray look like a Killer Wail Launcher :confused: I'd like to learn how to use it better simply because I have a compulsion to become decent with any weapon I get killed by a lot ;) I know it CAN be used well. I just can't make it do it! With the wide spray, is there some trick to actually splatting someone before they splat you?

That said, like the dynamo's wide ohko arc since it's so easily abused by skilled users, it really is kind of broken - and its the first weapon you get in the game, absolutely free!

If I need speed, I usually go for sploosh, splash, carbon. I can HIT things with those :p I like sloshing machine, but I hate button spamming. .52 I always think I hate ,but end up enjoying when I try it. N-Zap 85 I really like, but never end up playing it. The range is surprising though. I do love my Aerospray MG though! RG's not bad but the wasted sub just seems so wrong. Mines...

LOL, how do you use carbons? They're kind of...spastic. I love carbon but I can't play it for hours like I can eliter & CHydra....the fast speed gets dizzying for a while :D

I might have to move both SS Pro & DS into my mains list. I'm really discovering how much I can love those...especially DS. So balanced...it can be used in every situation.




You might be mixing the Jr with the vanilla SS. Vanilla SS has Burst Bombs & Burst Bomb Rush, Tentatek/Octoshot has Suction Bombs & Inkzooka. It's the Jr. that has Splat Bombs & Bubbler ;) Unless you're including all "splattershots" in which case, don't forget the Pro & Forge! :)



Luna aside, it gets tons of hate though it's difficult to really use very well, but the other blasters are exceedingly difficult to use well, and while a very good blaster user is devastating, I don't often see very good blaster users. Heck I hardly see many blaster users at all outside TC. I love them, but I love all the hard to use weapons :D
Yep, I was meaning all Splattershots in general. I'd say the Jr./Tentatek/Octoshot all fall into the category I was describing, as where the Pro and Forge are a tad more technical but still serve a very similar function.

As for blasters, that shocks me to hear you rarely see them, or people who know how to use them well. I see hordes and hordes and HORDES of Luna Blasters in upper tier Ranked, many of whom are well-versed in using them. Blasters, like chargers, have a definite learning curve but once you get over that you can dominate so many situations. imo, the Luna Blaster has less of a learning curve just because its shots fire fairly quickly and it has a ridiculous blast radius. "Short range," they call it. Har. Freaking. Har. With the mini nuclear explosion that comes off those shots, you really don't need to be that close. But I think the real issue is that indirect hits do WAY too much damage with those things. / Sorry, my blaster rage can get intense sometimes lol.
 

Award

Squid Savior From the Future
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Yep, I was meaning all Splattershots in general. I'd say the Jr./Tentatek/Octoshot all fall into the category I was describing, as where the Pro and Forge are a tad more technical but still serve a very similar function.

As for blasters, that shocks me to hear you rarely see them, or people who know how to use them well. I see hordes and hordes and HORDES of Luna Blasters in upper tier Ranked, many of whom are well-versed in using them. Blasters, like chargers, have a definite learning curve but once you get over that you can dominate so many situations. imo, the Luna Blaster has less of a learning curve just because its shots fire fairly quickly and it has a ridiculous blast radius. "Short range," they call it. Har. Freaking. Har. With the mini nuclear explosion that comes off those shots, you really don't need to be that close. But I think the real issue is that indirect hits do WAY too much damage with those things. / Sorry, my blaster rage can get intense sometimes lol.
I started with "luna aside" ;) Yeah, I see lunas, play lunas, and see decent luna players (though it is still a difficult weapon to become really proficient with.) But the other blasters are a rare beast indeed, and especially good ones. Really (outside TC) when's the last time you saw "Splatted by Custom Blaster?" and "Splatted by Rapid Blaster Deco" :) The former I think I saw one...last month. And the latter, I'm pretty sure HappyBear801 and I are the only two that even use the thing. Though even I switched to Rapid Blaster Pro Deco! :p

Still, I'm weird, like the hard to learn and seldom used weapons, and am crazy enough to have played Custom Blaster in Mahi SZ (and won) :D

Luna surprises me sometimes with how far that radius goes. It never goes that far when I play it, it seems, but several times they got me up on my eliter perch and I was pretty shocked by that. Though they're usually the easiest players to hit with burst bombs when I have carbon roller ;) Still, the short range, even with blast radius, gets you killed easily enough unless you're good enough to get in close for the ohko. But, then, if you're going to do that, something like Carbon does the same job faster and RnB does it farther. You're kind of right though, the 2hko from luna periphery is a big strong. If RB/RBP gets a 3-4hko luna should have at least 3. It's not as slow as B/RnB that really NEEDS the 2hko because even that's too slow to be useful!

My current blaster love affair, though, is with Range Blaster. Simply because it's SO ungainly to use, and I can apply some eliter know-how to it, it's an interesting weapon. I don't main any blasters atm, my luna aggro TC days are over and I'm "starting fresh" with TC & RM with a defensive position, but they're sure fun to take for a spin! Difficult though. RnB & RBPD, if you miss a shot or it gets caught on a crate, you're in some trouble...
 

HypernovaSoul

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I started with "luna aside" ;) Yeah, I see lunas, play lunas, and see decent luna players (though it is still a difficult weapon to become really proficient with.) But the other blasters are a rare beast indeed, and especially good ones. Really (outside TC) when's the last time you saw "Splatted by Custom Blaster?" and "Splatted by Rapid Blaster Deco" :) The former I think I saw one...last month. And the latter, I'm pretty sure HappyBear801 and I are the only two that even use the thing. Though even I switched to Rapid Blaster Pro Deco! :p

Still, I'm weird, like the hard to learn and seldom used weapons, and am crazy enough to have played Custom Blaster in Mahi SZ (and won) :D

Luna surprises me sometimes with how far that radius goes. It never goes that far when I play it, it seems, but several times they got me up on my eliter perch and I was pretty shocked by that. Though they're usually the easiest players to hit with burst bombs when I have carbon roller ;) Still, the short range, even with blast radius, gets you killed easily enough unless you're good enough to get in close for the ohko. But, then, if you're going to do that, something like Carbon does the same job faster and RnB does it farther. You're kind of right though, the 2hko from luna periphery is a big strong. If RB/RBP gets a 3-4hko luna should have at least 3. It's not as slow as B/RnB that really NEEDS the 2hko because even that's too slow to be useful!

My current blaster love affair, though, is with Range Blaster. Simply because it's SO ungainly to use, and I can apply some eliter know-how to it, it's an interesting weapon. I don't main any blasters atm, my luna aggro TC days are over and I'm "starting fresh" with TC & RM with a defensive position, but they're sure fun to take for a spin! Difficult though. RnB & RBPD, if you miss a shot or it gets caught on a crate, you're in some trouble...
Yeah, honestly from what I can tell the Luna Blaster is easily the fastest/most pressuring 2HKO weapon. And as you mentioned, it's not even just the size/damage of the shots that are difficult to predict, but their sheer reach over the edges of walls/obstacles. Luna Blasters seem to have way too easy of a time picking off chargers from their perches and opponents from elevated towers, even when their "short" range should be limiting the shot's reach, or the obstacle at least blocking some portion of the burst. As you said, I agree given their massive burst radius and rate of fire, they should be 3HKO weapons, not 2HKO. Alternatively, the damage inflicted by indirect hits needs to be dramatically reduced. At least make them actually aim, for god's sake. They did it for rollers (which even I'll admit as a roller user, was a legitimate nerf, though they really devastated Dynamos), and I rarely see people complaining about those anymore.

Some of the lesser used blasters are actually pretty cool, more unique and strategic weapons. But even outside of Lunas, the vanilla and Range Blasters I actually still see pretty often, and they pose similar nuisances. Unlike the Lunas, however, I don't generally consider them broken. I considered trying out the Rapid Blaster Pro Deco just because it seemed like a fun, unique set, but yeah that's among the weapon types I see the least lol, so I'm concerned about its real usability.
 

Award

Squid Savior From the Future
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Yeah, honestly from what I can tell the Luna Blaster is easily the fastest/most pressuring 2HKO weapon. And as you mentioned, it's not even just the size/damage of the shots that are difficult to predict, but their sheer reach over the edges of walls/obstacles. Luna Blasters seem to have way too easy of a time picking off chargers from their perches and opponents from elevated towers, even when their "short" range should be limiting the shot's reach, or the obstacle at least blocking some portion of the burst. As you said, I agree given their massive burst radius and rate of fire, they should be 3HKO weapons, not 2HKO. Alternatively, the damage inflicted by indirect hits needs to be dramatically reduced. At least make them actually aim, for god's sake. They did it for rollers (which even I'll admit as a roller user, was a legitimate nerf, though they really devastated Dynamos), and I rarely see people complaining about those anymore.

Some of the lesser used blasters are actually pretty cool, more unique and strategic weapons. But even outside of Lunas, the vanilla and Range Blasters I actually still see pretty often, and they pose similar nuisances. Unlike the Lunas, however, I don't generally consider them broken. I considered trying out the Rapid Blaster Pro Deco just because it seemed like a fun, unique set, but yeah that's among the weapon types I see the least lol, so I'm concerned about its real usability.
Luna is at least the most easily learned fast pressuring 2hko weapon. The actual fastest 2hko would be bamboozler. A masterful bamboozler user is a DEVASTATING weapon. I got spawncamped endlessly in TW a while back by this "B rank" bamboozler user with superhuman aim and reaction time. They can do their 2shot in under a second, including charge time. But becoming that masterful is a monumental task. Luna puts it on auto (but I'd rather fight a mediocre luna than a masterful bamboozler :p )

The 3hko would be the result of reducing indirect damage. I have no problem with it's ohko potential in direct range, That actually takes skill to use with the short range allowed. The ohko really IS short range. Shorter than splat roller I believe, a little longer than carbon's, but not as fast. IMO (keep in mind I haven't actaully played dynamo personally yet, so my opinion may change) I think they didn't go far enough in nerfing dynamo. It has about 45 degrees of ohko potential at a range beat only by chargers, hydras, and squelchers, but without having to have impeccable aim like the above. It's ability to dominate an open splat zone is just too much. However they nerfed it's melee potential to far.

I'm surprised you see standard/range blasters often. I don't see them much. To make those, especially Range work, you really need a sense of distance and timing. Range really works like a charger. With it's speed, if you miss your ohko, you're really in trouble. It's too easy to get it caught on a wall, ledge or crate and make the shot useless. Sloshing machines seem to be replacing them due to the fact they don't have that mandatory max distance problem. Personally I like using the blasters more than SM's. but I admit, SMs are easier to get kills with than non-luna blasters!

RB/RBP are pretty fun, and weird. Blasters that are 2 direct or 1 direct one area work kind of strange. It's like a fixed-distance burst bomb shooter. You're kind of right, they're too slow at getting kills to really be "viable" in the usual sense I think. If you're aiming fro 2hko direct, bamboozler is faster. If going indirect, why not go with a regular blaster? I think RB/RBP's strengths are supportive, not so much getting high kills but in huge area denial from the constant mortar fire. RBPD is more of a direct killer with the disruptors which is probably why I like it :D
 

HypernovaSoul

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Luna is at least the most easily learned fast pressuring 2hko weapon. The actual fastest 2hko would be bamboozler. A masterful bamboozler user is a DEVASTATING weapon. I got spawncamped endlessly in TW a while back by this "B rank" bamboozler user with superhuman aim and reaction time. They can do their 2shot in under a second, including charge time. But becoming that masterful is a monumental task. Luna puts it on auto (but I'd rather fight a mediocre luna than a masterful bamboozler :p )

The 3hko would be the result of reducing indirect damage. I have no problem with it's ohko potential in direct range, That actually takes skill to use with the short range allowed. The ohko really IS short range. Shorter than splat roller I believe, a little longer than carbon's, but not as fast. IMO (keep in mind I haven't actaully played dynamo personally yet, so my opinion may change) I think they didn't go far enough in nerfing dynamo. It has about 45 degrees of ohko potential at a range beat only by chargers, hydras, and squelchers, but without having to have impeccable aim like the above. It's ability to dominate an open splat zone is just too much. However they nerfed it's melee potential to far.

I'm surprised you see standard/range blasters often. I don't see them much. To make those, especially Range work, you really need a sense of distance and timing. Range really works like a charger. With it's speed, if you miss your ohko, you're really in trouble. It's too easy to get it caught on a wall, ledge or crate and make the shot useless. Sloshing machines seem to be replacing them due to the fact they don't have that mandatory max distance problem. Personally I like using the blasters more than SM's. but I admit, SMs are easier to get kills with than non-luna blasters!

RB/RBP are pretty fun, and weird. Blasters that are 2 direct or 1 direct one area work kind of strange. It's like a fixed-distance burst bomb shooter. You're kind of right, they're too slow at getting kills to really be "viable" in the usual sense I think. If you're aiming fro 2hko direct, bamboozler is faster. If going indirect, why not go with a regular blaster? I think RB/RBP's strengths are supportive, not so much getting high kills but in huge area denial from the constant mortar fire. RBPD is more of a direct killer with the disruptors which is probably why I like it :D
I don't often have much trouble with Bamboozlers, although they're easy to underestimate. They're great at punishing players who approach them too much like a standard charger/E-Liter. I'd say they probably need Attack Up to kill that quickly in most situations...but I think that's a larger problem, how Attack Ups effect chargers.

And yeah, direct blaster hits I'm whatever about, that at least requires some aim and just makes them have a roller-style 1HKO. It's the explosive indirect damage that is in desperate need of nerfing, which is why they induce such insane pressure. I've mentioned this in another thread, but in the example video following the nerf, you can literally see that indirect blaster hits leave the target completely covered in ink...a single drop more and they're dead. As where the nerfed rollers cause basically chip damage with indirect hits (the target was shown with minimal ink splatter). Indirect blaster hits should be the SAME as indirect roller hits, imo.

As a longtime Dynamo user, I will say the Dynamo was absolutely overpowered in its original form, pretty much entirely because of its 1HKO range. But like blasters, those who haven't really used Dynamos don't know how cumbersome they are to use in many situations. I disagree that they didn't nerf it enough. The nerf honestly devastated the Dynamo. It's already one of the slowest weapons in the game...seriously you think you understand its derp fling lagtime until you actually use it lol. The reducing of the 1HKO hitbox, I get. The removal of 1HKO squishing when out of ink, I get. But the 1-second lagtime they inflicted on Dynamo ink refill is what really impacted the weapon's effectiveness in more aggressive situations. This is on top of the weapon already using massive amounts of ink, which can make Dynamos total sitting ducks in tighter spots. I will say Dynamos can be absolutely amazing at Splat Zones (ironic, since I don't like that mode much nowadays), but they are slow, large targets easily taken out by chargers, which are ridiculously common and a primary Dynamo counter in most situations.

I don't see other blasters nearly as often as Lunas, but they are definitely used. Sloshing Machines are a very interesting weapon, though may be my least favorite of the Sloshers. They have a very unique hitbox and kit that's fun to toy with though. And yeah, Disruptors go SO well with most any blaster. Really helps make up the speed disadvantage. Although I think if Lunas were ever given Disruptors, that's the day I'd bid farewell to this game lol. I'd like to try some of the lesser used blasters sometime myself, they seem fun to use, though not the greatest fit for every mode/stage.
 

Award

Squid Savior From the Future
Joined
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Messages
1,661
I don't often have much trouble with Bamboozlers, although they're easy to underestimate. They're great at punishing players who approach them too much like a standard charger/E-Liter. I'd say they probably need Attack Up to kill that quickly in most situations...but I think that's a larger problem, how Attack Ups effect chargers.
Bamboozlers are severely underestimated mostly because few people use them well and fewer still try to use them at all :) They're weird weapons. But the thing with bamboozler is they're really NOT a charger. Sure they charge...instantly. But they're really a shooter and are used as a shooter. attack up is pretty useless on one. They're 99% capped so they always require 2 shots. But the charge is near instantaneous. If you come out of ink it's more or less charged once your animation is done. And all it needs is that second quick uncharged tap which unlike other charges has full range! The result is a 2hko weapon that can do it faster than any roller or blaster with a kills speed beaten only by the carbon,splat/krak rollers ohko, and way faster than the blasters area damage. Even luna! But I'm not skilled enough with them to make that kind of use of them! Damage up on other chargers....they nerfed eliter as hard as dynamo so it doesn't affect them as much. I've tried up to 3 damage ups on eliter.....it probably does improve my chance to kill versus a hit that doesn't kill somewhat. I get lots of shots that don't kill. But my odds weren't THAT different with 3 than with 2 mains. and most of the time I use 1 + a sub or two. I do find without ONE I'm in bad shape. 2 makes life easier for sure but I often don't use it. 3 doesnt change things that much. I think the people who scum 9 sub slots of dmg up definitely have an advantage though. There probably should be limits. Even as a sniper I'm irritated by other snipers with that much damage stacked since in a fair fight, they're going to win.

And yeah, direct blaster hits I'm whatever about, that at least requires some aim and just makes them have a roller-style 1HKO. It's the explosive indirect damage that is in desperate need of nerfing, which is why they induce such insane pressure. I've mentioned this in another thread, but in the example video following the nerf, you can literally see that indirect blaster hits leave the target completely covered in ink...a single drop more and they're dead. As where the nerfed rollers cause basically chip damage with indirect hits (the target was shown with minimal ink splatter). Indirect blaster hits should be the SAME as indirect roller hits, imo.
I imagine rate of fire plays into it. Luna's fast enough, but the other blasters are SLOOW. A roller could easily get a second flick in in the time it takes a range blaster to fire a second shot for example. Carbon could get 3. But you're right, I'd have thought the area damage would do 51% damage, not 90%+, that would guarantee a 2hko. or maybe 60% in case they recover some. Though I still think we're talking mostly about luna. Regular & Range blasters have such slow RoF and require pinpoint usage of the blast area, the enemy should be able to get away. Regular blaster can abuse the 2hko somewhat. I suppose Range blaster, the area damage really is just for pressuring...if you rely on the 2-shot with that fire speed, you're probably going to get splatted. And remember neither of them has as large an AoE as luna to begin with. And the RB/RBP have very small AoE and greatly reduced damage (with no ohko potential) to begin with, so they're almost a different thing. They can still be powerful, but like chargers and rollers, they're only powerful if the user is pretty skilled with it.
As a longtime Dynamo user, I will say the Dynamo was absolutely overpowered in its original form, pretty much entirely because of its 1HKO range. But like blasters, those who haven't really used Dynamos don't know how cumbersome they are to use in many situations. I disagree that they didn't nerf it enough. The nerf honestly devastated the Dynamo. It's already one of the slowest weapons in the game...seriously you think you understand its derp fling lagtime until you actually use it lol. The reducing of the 1HKO hitbox, I get. The removal of 1HKO squishing when out of ink, I get. But the 1-second lagtime they inflicted on Dynamo ink refill is what really impacted the weapon's effectiveness in more aggressive situations. This is on top of the weapon already using massive amounts of ink, which can make Dynamos total sitting ducks in tighter spots. I will say Dynamos can be absolutely amazing at Splat Zones (ironic, since I don't like that mode much nowadays), but they are slow, large targets easily taken out by chargers, which are ridiculously common and a primary Dynamo counter in most situations.
Fair enough. I keep saving the dynamo, or rather, saving finishing the campaign for a little bit each time the servers are down for maintenance...so I can't use it yet! :) I can sense how ungainly it is, but have an interest in playing all the weird hard to learn weapons! IMO for dynamo, either the range or the ohko hitbox does need a reduction. The problem is, depending on map, they can wipe out an entire team in a single fling even if the team mates aren't really bunched together. Like the "sniper shelf" on Mahi. Or same on Ancho-V. All while being out of range of most other weapons. I imagine they never intended the "jump flick" for range extension when they designed it. But it also should be more powerful at close range than it is. A bad dynamo is bad, but when you get a really good dynamo (why is it every S+ dynamo wears that stupid samurai armor that makes them easier charger targets?) ) they can control the whole map even more than a charger (because they don't have to aim as precise!) But I also accept, like eliter, it's easy to hate on it until you try it. Everyone hates how "OP" eliters are. But they're so difficult to aim with, and you only get 3 shots.

I don't see other blasters nearly as often as Lunas, but they are definitely used. Sloshing Machines are a very interesting weapon, though may be my least favorite of the Sloshers. They have a very unique hitbox and kit that's fun to toy with though. And yeah, Disruptors go SO well with most any blaster. Really helps make up the speed disadvantage. Although I think if Lunas were ever given Disruptors, that's the day I'd bid farewell to this game lol. I'd like to try some of the lesser used blasters sometime myself, they seem fun to use, though not the greatest fit for every mode/stage.
Well. luna's basically ARE disruptors ;)

I think regular blasters are niche weapons like chargers, rollers, and splatlings. Luna's sort of its own thing...that one could qualify as a "best" weapon in the game possibly if there were to be such a thing. But luna comes with the catch that it really IS high risk, and you usually do have a high death count with one. It's no longer a main for me but I've used luna quite a bit. It's actually really hard to actually keep your k/d from getting fairly close to each other.
 

HypernovaSoul

Semi-Pro Squid
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
87
Bamboozlers are severely underestimated mostly because few people use them well and fewer still try to use them at all :) They're weird weapons. But the thing with bamboozler is they're really NOT a charger. Sure they charge...instantly. But they're really a shooter and are used as a shooter. attack up is pretty useless on one. They're 99% capped so they always require 2 shots. But the charge is near instantaneous. If you come out of ink it's more or less charged once your animation is done. And all it needs is that second quick uncharged tap which unlike other charges has full range! The result is a 2hko weapon that can do it faster than any roller or blaster with a kills speed beaten only by the carbon,splat/krak rollers ohko, and way faster than the blasters area damage. Even luna! But I'm not skilled enough with them to make that kind of use of them! Damage up on other chargers....they nerfed eliter as hard as dynamo so it doesn't affect them as much. I've tried up to 3 damage ups on eliter.....it probably does improve my chance to kill versus a hit that doesn't kill somewhat. I get lots of shots that don't kill. But my odds weren't THAT different with 3 than with 2 mains. and most of the time I use 1 + a sub or two. I do find without ONE I'm in bad shape. 2 makes life easier for sure but I often don't use it. 3 doesnt change things that much. I think the people who scum 9 sub slots of dmg up definitely have an advantage though. There probably should be limits. Even as a sniper I'm irritated by other snipers with that much damage stacked since in a fair fight, they're going to win.
My first attempt with a Bamboozler did not go well at all lol, but it doesn't really fit my play style. It's a very unique weapon because it has more range than a lot of shooters but nowhere near as much range as the most popular chargers. So you kind of have to balance knowing when to pseudo-snipe and when to disrupt and close in. Attack Up from my understanding still effects E-Liters quite a bit, which is why it's so commonly stacked on them. It allows for partial charge kills and even faster Burst Bomb kills, which I think is part of why E-Liters still border on OP with their insane range combined with 1HKOs that don't even need a full charge with the right ability build. It doesn't sound like it's what you're running, but I've seen players with all Attack Up E-Liters, and seriously you can not get anywhere remotely near those things. It needs a lower cap honestly, given its already devastating range.

I imagine rate of fire plays into it. Luna's fast enough, but the other blasters are SLOOW. A roller could easily get a second flick in in the time it takes a range blaster to fire a second shot for example. Carbon could get 3. But you're right, I'd have thought the area damage would do 51% damage, not 90%+, that would guarantee a 2hko. or maybe 60% in case they recover some. Though I still think we're talking mostly about luna. Regular & Range blasters have such slow RoF and require pinpoint usage of the blast area, the enemy should be able to get away. Regular blaster can abuse the 2hko somewhat. I suppose Range blaster, the area damage really is just for pressuring...if you rely on the 2-shot with that fire speed, you're probably going to get splatted. And remember neither of them has as large an AoE as luna to begin with. And the RB/RBP have very small AoE and greatly reduced damage (with no ohko potential) to begin with, so they're almost a different thing. They can still be powerful, but like chargers and rollers, they're only powerful if the user is pretty skilled with it.
Yeah, definitely. I think that's my main issue with Luna, it's too fast and yet doesn't have the appropriate damage balancing as Rapid Blasters. Its supposed "lack of range" is overcompensated by the gargantuan blast radius. Most rollers can get second flicks off pretty quick, yes, but indirect flicks do so little damage now, there's still generally enough time to punish an indirect hit or even swim around them to recover in the process. It's also worth noting that aside from Dynamo, blasters almost always outrange rollers. So it makes sense they are often slower. Indirect Luna Blaster hits, meanwhile, your options are most often 1. run for your life 2. die. Or 3. trade kill. The other blasters, it's sometimes a very different story. Some of them are much more along the lines of Dynamo, very hard-hitting but slow as molasses. I really don't have as much against other blasters as I do Lunas, I think they're the core problem of the class.


Fair enough. I keep saving the dynamo, or rather, saving finishing the campaign for a little bit each time the servers are down for maintenance...so I can't use it yet! :) I can sense how ungainly it is, but have an interest in playing all the weird hard to learn weapons! IMO for dynamo, either the range or the ohko hitbox does need a reduction. The problem is, depending on map, they can wipe out an entire team in a single fling even if the team mates aren't really bunched together. Like the "sniper shelf" on Mahi. Or same on Ancho-V. All while being out of range of most other weapons. I imagine they never intended the "jump flick" for range extension when they designed it. But it also should be more powerful at close range than it is. A bad dynamo is bad, but when you get a really good dynamo (why is it every S+ dynamo wears that stupid samurai armor that makes them easier charger targets?) ) they can control the whole map even more than a charger (because they don't have to aim as precise!) But I also accept, like eliter, it's easy to hate on it until you try it. Everyone hates how "OP" eliters are. But they're so difficult to aim with, and you only get 3 shots.
Dynamos are a lot of fun to use and when you dominate with them it's very satisfying, but heading into it with an impression that it's anything like other rollers left me with a very rude awakening lol. It's kind of like the Bamboozler in that it's categorized as one class, but it's really nothing like anything else in that class. The first handful of times using it, most people do poorly from what I've seen/heard. It is ridiculously slow, especially if you're used to the game's speedier weapons. I would frankly compare its fling time to some chargers' charge time (maybe not E-Liter, but yeah). They can be very deadly, but they're ultimately support weapons. They specialize in area pressure, not so much pushing the opposing team back but more preventing them from entering key areas. They are generally very unsafe in close quarters, and as I said they're honestly probably the absolute easiest targets for chargers to hit. Maybe a part of why I often have a bone to pick with chargers lol. What's funny is people kept wanting a range nerf on them, but they actually have a range of 72, which every single charger outranges aside from the Squiffer...which is so rarely used. And the Bamboozler, but as we discussed that's hardly a charger. :P I will say I was surprised to find out they (barely) outrange the Dual Squelcher, which is the longest range non-charger shooter. 70 may be a more appropriate range than 72, given those stats. It's worth noting though that its maximum range doesn't encompass its actual 1HKO radius. If you're hit by the tail end of a Dynamo's fling splatter, it's still an indirect hit.

Well. luna's basically ARE disruptors ;)

I think regular blasters are niche weapons like chargers, rollers, and splatlings. Luna's sort of its own thing...that one could qualify as a "best" weapon in the game possibly if there were to be such a thing. But luna comes with the catch that it really IS high risk, and you usually do have a high death count with one. It's no longer a main for me but I've used luna quite a bit. It's actually really hard to actually keep your k/d from getting fairly close to each other.
True dat. I still consider Splatoon to be a mostly well-balanced game, its handful of rage-inducing elements can just be really rage-inducing lol.
 

SplatoonisBagels

Inkster Jr.
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joje02
Playing through the S ranked lobbies for a while now in ranked, every weapon is most certainly viable when practiced frequently in the right hands but there are clearly some overused rage inducing weapons in the game. The best weapons to pressure and just sheerly annoy the heck out of you in games are the Luna Blaster and the E-Liter 3K. Being a Neo Sploosh, Tri-Slosher, RBD, and Dynamo main, I surprisingly don't have a hard time with Gals. I can flank then with disruptors, play all stealthy with some swim speed up and attack them from the other side where they don't look. Most Gals have one common attribute that allows them to be vulnerable: they rely incredibly on splash walls. This is usually good but when you know how to exploit it, like throwing a suction bomb or attacking the moment they lose their ink, you can outplay them. Also, the range is great but the accuracy isn't, allowing you to catch yourself when you have that moment of great awareness, which I usually dont't have.

I'm gonna start by ranting. I hate, HATE, Lunas on tower control. Their freaking blast radius goes pop in your face and you lose 3/4 of your health. You realize whats happened but its too late by then. POP, you lose another 3/4 and die. You respawn and jump to your teammate just to psuh the tower a little further and what do you find? The same freaking quick respawn and damage up stacking Luna spawn camping you. POP, dirent hit and you're dead. Lunas are good, I get that. As a matter of fact, they're awesome. But when you see match after match with Lunas, you avoid tower control. This is why I try to avoid tower control. Still, they have a perfect ability to pressure, kill, hunt and their rapid strong blast pops with a mediocre range makes them great.

E-Liters are a different story. Nintendo gave them a good supporting set and made their skill level harder to use so that they could be balanced. Other than on Moray Tower days, E-Liters are well balanced with a close combat burst bomb and long snipe range. It's just that on Moray Tower days, Japanese E-Liters wreck. I think E-Liters are great because they are great support, eliminating one by one to support the greater cause of lifting the team.

Now i'm gonna list my best weapon, the one I think is really viable in my mind: the Tri-Slosher. It has a great set perfect for close combat of disruptors and the bubbler. With a three way spread, making it easy to hit like the Sploosh but with more range, it delivers a knockout punch for close combat. The disruptors are perfect for flanking and during Rainmaker, severely cripples the Rainmaker, allowing you to have the satisfaction that they can't push for another few seconds. The bubbler is not only a get of of jail card but it can deliver massive blows to the other team, or you can use it to protect your own team by giving it off to your teammates or guiding the Rainmaker. The steady 2HKO damage and reliable range/ink spread really lets the weapon shine. Its even versatile and easy to maneuver. These are just my thoughts but once again, I will clarify that every weapon is viable.
 

Tuff

Full Squid
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Wolfysmash
My criteria for "best weapon" in Splatoon is usually "what is the most versatile that can succeed well in any mode". To that end I'd have to say the Tentatek Splattershot simply cuz you can use it in any mode and have good results. It's just really well-rounded. Not that it's the only weapon anyone should use but it's definitely got insane versatility.

But tbh I don't think there's a single Best Weapon. Every weapon is good and has a role it can fill well, and some are just a little more versatile than others.
 

Award

Squid Savior From the Future
Joined
Dec 18, 2015
Messages
1,661
My first attempt with a Bamboozler did not go well at all lol, but it doesn't really fit my play style. It's a very unique weapon because it has more range than a lot of shooters but nowhere near as much range as the most popular chargers. So you kind of have to balance knowing when to pseudo-snipe and when to disrupt and close in. Attack Up from my understanding still effects E-Liters quite a bit, which is why it's so commonly stacked on them. It allows for partial charge kills and even faster Burst Bomb kills, which I think is part of why E-Liters still border on OP with their insane range combined with 1HKOs that don't even need a full charge with the right ability build. It doesn't sound like it's what you're running, but I've seen players with all Attack Up E-Liters, and seriously you can not get anywhere remotely near those things. It needs a lower cap honestly, given its already devastating range.
IMO, I don't think the eliter issue is so much that it charges too fast with dmg up still. I think the problem is a broader one: Being able to stack too much of any one ability. Eliter is still difficult to use with a partial charge or not, the aim and aiming at moving targets at any range is very difficult. I do sometimes not get a kill because I was undercharged, and that's very frustrating because once that happens, it leaves me in a VERY dangerous situation, and possibly leaves the whole team in a dangerous situation. The long duration of charges means it's so difficult recover from any miss. So the advantage of adding dmg up in some ways just corrects the overzealous limitations. BUT the dmg up also does not boost the range, so you still need a feel for your ranges at different charge amounts. I think SOME snipers stack all that damage up to reduce their charge times, however I have a feeling a lot of the snipers with stacked dmg up don't do it to reduce their charge times but because they're actually bad snipers and do it to boost burst bombs on vanilla eliter. The classic "burst bomb main" trope vanilla eliter has. I've noticed a lot of Customs entering the fray from Japanese players, and customs are usually not as into damage boosting it seems. I've seen more Splatterscoeps stacking damage now - with the charge time they already have, THAT is kind of gross. (FWIW, I run Custom, so I have to kill with the snipe, or not at all. You learn CQC eliter fast that way, and my 2-shot is improving! ;) )

The stacked dmg up on eliters is actually a greater problem to normal eliters like myself than to other players: In any 1v1 sniper battle with an opposing sniper, they're going to win, every time, unless I can tremendously out-maneuver them and shoot while dodging. Just because they stacked dmg up.

IMO the "stack full arrays of any one skill" leads to more problems than eliters with dmg up. It's mostly achieved by scumming, which is in itself problem one: It's a cheat from the start. Sure some people luck out with random rolls, and some manage to reroll enough to get perfects. But the ones you see with 3x dmg up mains with full or almost full subs: The sheer probability of rolling that is insane. They cheated, plain and simple. The other problem is stacking anything, leads to game problems:
Stacked spc. charge up: That player spams specials the whole game. Stacked spc. duration: That player has a bomb rush that shuts down the map for absurd duration of time, or presses straight forward for far too long. Stacked run speed/swim speed: Players that move way to fast for any accurate weapon to hit.

The developers didn't INTEND scumming to happen so they relied on the probability of rolling a perfect and assumed full stacked loadouts were pretty much impossible, so they didn't counter it. IMO they need to cap the effects after x amount of stacking. 3-4 main equivalents is more than enough without allowing SIX main equivalents. Not just for eliters, but for all abilities. That would have the effect of making combat more interesting and putting more abilities in play as well.

Yeah, definitely. I think that's my main issue with Luna, it's too fast and yet doesn't have the appropriate damage balancing as Rapid Blasters. Its supposed "lack of range" is overcompensated by the gargantuan blast radius. Most rollers can get second flicks off pretty quick, yes, but indirect flicks do so little damage now, there's still generally enough time to punish an indirect hit or even swim around them to recover in the process. It's also worth noting that aside from Dynamo, blasters almost always outrange rollers. So it makes sense they are often slower. Indirect Luna Blaster hits, meanwhile, your options are most often 1. run for your life 2. die. Or 3. trade kill. The other blasters, it's sometimes a very different story. Some of them are much more along the lines of Dynamo, very hard-hitting but slow as molasses. I really don't have as much against other blasters as I do Lunas, I think they're the core problem of the class.
Agreed on most points, and when I think "blaster" I tend not to think "luna" It has no flames on the paintjob. :p Though the one point you mention is the difference between a good luna player and a bad one. They encourage the enemy to trade. While they may be annoying, every time they get one of these kills, they're inflicting as much or more damage to their own team as they are the enemy's, unless they stack QR (I ran luna with some QR in TC in the past.) In some ways QR is needed to compensate that problem and come out on top. A GOOD luna can get the kills without trading, otherwise, it's not actually that great a weapon if it removes itself each kill. But, then, a GOOD luna goes for the ohko. ;) I'm not sure luna's OP as much as it allows otherwise poor players to get some easy kills they couldn't have had otherwise. When it comes to good players of it, I think of ohko ninjas that play it a lot like carbon roller (probably why I went from luna to carbon. Carbon recovers from an ohko miss better than luna!) I do wonder how much of the hate for luna is against good luna players that know how to use it well versus annoyance at poor players that score cheap kills with them.

I don't think luna should lose the ohko at all. And I understand the idea behind the large radius. I think the trouble is, if they reduced the radius damage to a 3hko, they'd have to increase the firing speed slightly (current luna speed is too slow for a useful 3hko.) But then if they increase the speed they make the ohko more deadly. And if they remove the ohko, then why not just Rapid Blaster? 55% damage on each radius hit might work though. Any time spent in ink would recover to a 3hko.

Dynamos are a lot of fun to use and when you dominate with them it's very satisfying, but heading into it with an impression that it's anything like other rollers left me with a very rude awakening lol. It's kind of like the Bamboozler in that it's categorized as one class, but it's really nothing like anything else in that class. The first handful of times using it, most people do poorly from what I've seen/heard. It is ridiculously slow, especially if you're used to the game's speedier weapons. I would frankly compare its fling time to some chargers' charge time (maybe not E-Liter, but yeah). They can be very deadly, but they're ultimately support weapons. They specialize in area pressure, not so much pushing the opposing team back but more preventing them from entering key areas. They are generally very unsafe in close quarters, and as I said they're honestly probably the absolute easiest targets for chargers to hit. Maybe a part of why I often have a bone to pick with chargers lol. What's funny is people kept wanting a range nerf on them, but they actually have a range of 72, which every single charger outranges aside from the Squiffer...which is so rarely used. And the Bamboozler, but as we discussed that's hardly a charger. :p I will say I was surprised to find out they (barely) outrange the Dual Squelcher, which is the longest range non-charger shooter. 70 may be a more appropriate range than 72, given those stats. It's worth noting though that its maximum range doesn't encompass its actual 1HKO radius. If you're hit by the tail end of a Dynamo's fling splatter, it's still an indirect hit.
I figure, I man CEliter & CHydra - after getting used to that kind of speed, a Dynamo will seem like a speedboat :p And it occupies a similar role. Squiffers...I just can't love squiffer. Some love them. Some feel they're the best of the chargers. I used to love it. It can be used well, but IMO it's pair of kits really limits what it can do. Ink mines are just awful, and sensors are so situational. Bubblers are almost useless on it. It really got the short end of the stick with some poor kits that make splat charger much more versatile in the same role despite being a little slower. I think shooters certainly have the biggest problems with dynamos (and rollers.) Like you said even the DS is outranged by it. So if your team has no charger/hydra/Jet Squelcher (longer than DS) you really can't counter a dynamo - and with that wide arc, it's hard to get in near them. As a sniper I don't mind them. Nor as a hydra. But when I play shooters or carbon, they can be such trouble.
 

HypernovaSoul

Semi-Pro Squid
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
87
IMO, I don't think the eliter issue is so much that it charges too fast with dmg up still. I think the problem is a broader one: Being able to stack too much of any one ability. Eliter is still difficult to use with a partial charge or not, the aim and aiming at moving targets at any range is very difficult. I do sometimes not get a kill because I was undercharged, and that's very frustrating because once that happens, it leaves me in a VERY dangerous situation, and possibly leaves the whole team in a dangerous situation. The long duration of charges means it's so difficult recover from any miss. So the advantage of adding dmg up in some ways just corrects the overzealous limitations. BUT the dmg up also does not boost the range, so you still need a feel for your ranges at different charge amounts. I think SOME snipers stack all that damage up to reduce their charge times, however I have a feeling a lot of the snipers with stacked dmg up don't do it to reduce their charge times but because they're actually bad snipers and do it to boost burst bombs on vanilla eliter. The classic "burst bomb main" trope vanilla eliter has. I've noticed a lot of Customs entering the fray from Japanese players, and customs are usually not as into damage boosting it seems. I've seen more Splatterscoeps stacking damage now - with the charge time they already have, THAT is kind of gross. (FWIW, I run Custom, so I have to kill with the snipe, or not at all. You learn CQC eliter fast that way, and my 2-shot is improving! ;) )
I completely agree that its range and damage capabilities aside, using most chargers really well still takes a lot of skill. They have a very steep learning curve for sure, especially because they just handle insanely differently from all the other weapons. The vanilla E-Liter is actually the one I most often have issues with. It is literally custom made for devastating snipes, and a sub that completely compensates close encounters. You're far away and within sight, snipe. You're getting too close, Attack Up Burst Bomb spam. And as situational as Echolocator can be, it is absolutely perfect for the E-Liter. The thing is designed to be a death machine lol, and as soon as the learning curve is overcome that's usually what those players become.

The stacked dmg up on eliters is actually a greater problem to normal eliters like myself than to other players: In any 1v1 sniper battle with an opposing sniper, they're going to win, every time, unless I can tremendously out-maneuver them and shoot while dodging. Just because they stacked dmg up.

IMO the "stack full arrays of any one skill" leads to more problems than eliters with dmg up. It's mostly achieved by scumming, which is in itself problem one: It's a cheat from the start. Sure some people luck out with random rolls, and some manage to reroll enough to get perfects. But the ones you see with 3x dmg up mains with full or almost full subs: The sheer probability of rolling that is insane. They cheated, plain and simple. The other problem is stacking anything, leads to game problems:
Stacked spc. charge up: That player spams specials the whole game. Stacked spc. duration: That player has a bomb rush that shuts down the map for absurd duration of time, or presses straight forward for far too long. Stacked run speed/swim speed: Players that move way to fast for any accurate weapon to hit.

The developers didn't INTEND scumming to happen so they relied on the probability of rolling a perfect and assumed full stacked loadouts were pretty much impossible, so they didn't counter it. IMO they need to cap the effects after x amount of stacking. 3-4 main equivalents is more than enough without allowing SIX main equivalents. Not just for eliters, but for all abilities. That would have the effect of making combat more interesting and putting more abilities in play as well.
I have heard the E-Liter called the "anti-sniper sniper" many times lol, it seems to be the class' counter to itself, although it's frankly the most common one at this point. And yeah, I totally agree about scumming. It's ironic because certain boosts feel so minimal, and sometimes a single slot won't even produce anything that noticeable. But stacking can get ridiculous, mainly on Attack Up. I feel like Splatoon is already a game that can barely be considered to have "health" bars...aside from some ranged shooters, a vast majority of weapons seen in ranked are 1-2HKOs (or kill so quickly they may as well be, cough Tentatek cough), so you essentially need to do as much as possible to avoid damage, period. To make that even harder by giving weapons that already kill quickly a boost, it's a bit broken. I absolutely agree caps need to be set, arguably different caps depending on the weapon. It seems like far too many people are taking the troll route and spam-stacking one ability, through scumming or whatever else, to abuse one single mechanic.

Agreed on most points, and when I think "blaster" I tend not to think "luna" It has no flames on the paintjob. :p Though the one point you mention is the difference between a good luna player and a bad one. They encourage the enemy to trade. While they may be annoying, every time they get one of these kills, they're inflicting as much or more damage to their own team as they are the enemy's, unless they stack QR (I ran luna with some QR in TC in the past.) In some ways QR is needed to compensate that problem and come out on top. A GOOD luna can get the kills without trading, otherwise, it's not actually that great a weapon if it removes itself each kill. But, then, a GOOD luna goes for the ohko. ;) I'm not sure luna's OP as much as it allows otherwise poor players to get some easy kills they couldn't have had otherwise. When it comes to good players of it, I think of ohko ninjas that play it a lot like carbon roller (probably why I went from luna to carbon. Carbon recovers from an ohko miss better than luna!) I do wonder how much of the hate for luna is against good luna players that know how to use it well versus annoyance at poor players that score cheap kills with them.

I don't think luna should lose the ohko at all. And I understand the idea behind the large radius. I think the trouble is, if they reduced the radius damage to a 3hko, they'd have to increase the firing speed slightly (current luna speed is too slow for a useful 3hko.) But then if they increase the speed they make the ohko more deadly. And if they remove the ohko, then why not just Rapid Blaster? 55% damage on each radius hit might work though. Any time spent in ink would recover to a 3hko.
Lunas are definitely in a class of their own. I think the thing with trade kills is though, if you take a Luna out there's often a good likelihood it'll take you down with it (especially if there's lag...ugh), because of their enormous pressure and how difficult they are to approach. As I've said, if they were to change only 1 thing about Lunas, it should be that indirect hit damage becomes equivalent to indirect roller hits, not some devastating percentage that requires the target to flee or die. A balanced amount of pressure I'm fine with, I get that's what they're supposed to excel in. But a tidal wave of pressure with minimal breathing room for countering is a little ridiculous. I agree Lunas aren't really fast enough to be 3HKO weapons, but the damage ratio really needs adjusting.

I figure, I man CEliter & CHydra - after getting used to that kind of speed, a Dynamo will seem like a speedboat :p And it occupies a similar role. Squiffers...I just can't love squiffer. Some love them. Some feel they're the best of the chargers. I used to love it. It can be used well, but IMO it's pair of kits really limits what it can do. Ink mines are just awful, and sensors are so situational. Bubblers are almost useless on it. It really got the short end of the stick with some poor kits that make splat charger much more versatile in the same role despite being a little slower. I think shooters certainly have the biggest problems with dynamos (and rollers.) Like you said even the DS is outranged by it. So if your team has no charger/hydra/Jet Squelcher (longer than DS) you really can't counter a dynamo - and with that wide arc, it's hard to get in near them. As a sniper I don't mind them. Nor as a hydra. But when I play shooters or carbon, they can be such trouble.
Carbons can actually have a massive advantage over Dynamos if they're able to close in, and in modes that require a lot of movement I've definitely been in that situation. As where E-Liters have Burst Bombs, Dynamos have very few options for close combat, other than hope the swing finishes in time...which, against a Carbon, it almost never does. The alternative is try to scare them off with a Splat Bomb or Sprinkler, but those guzzle so much ink (and in turn instantly inflicts the refill lagtime) that they'd have to have breathing room behind them to escape. That being said, when the Dynamo has the range advantage, it can punish the hell out of bad approaches. They have to be treated like most long range weapons, and are particularly vulnerable to subs, because once their swing begins they can't cancel it. They're stuck in that animation until the fling gets off. There have been many times I've spotted a threat mid-swing, but can't get away because the animation's already begun. This is really what has to be taken advantage of in countering Dynamos. You really just have to get familiar with their 1HKO radius, predict their swing pattern and know how to maneuver/approach safely.

I also commend skilled Carbon users, because I definitely don't consider them OP but my god a really good Carbon user is horrifying. Their terrible range is really made up by the insane speed and stealth capabilities they have. One of the best combinations with Ninja Squid or Swim Speed Up. Zipping around the field like a cheetah assassin, it's crazy to behold when it works out lol.

I would say that generally when playing Dynamo, my biggest threats are definitely chargers...Lunas, a given....and close encounters, which can vary. Shooters, it really depends. I wouldn't say the Dynamo always counters shooters, mainly because shooters with a good balance of range/damage and a reliable sub (like Tentateks) still have solid options for taking care of a Dynamo. Following the nerf, it's very rare that I see a Dynamo dominate the field for long, because they're just such massive, slow targets and can't rely on perches as effectively as chargers. I consider myself to be a pretty skilled Dynamo user, but it's still very tough to adapt to certain situations with it. If you're used to weapons like E-Liters and Hydras though, it'll probably fit like a glove when you try it out haha. ;)
 

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