Defense-"Stickers" on mini-dummies

[Saltystick]

While watching a weapon showcase i noticed something really interesting!
The mini dummies in the test area have small defense "stickers" on them so you can see how much damage you'd deal to people wearing equipment with that ability. Guess that also means you can only stack it up to 3 times?

 

[LinkJr]

I believe it only simulates "Defense Up" as the main ability, and as main it will only stack 3 times because you can only wear 3 pieces of gear.

I wonder how smaller the effect is as a sub-ability, I'm certain it will stack even further (as you can have it in more than 3 out of 12 slots) but I imagine the effect won't be that noticeable.

Also isn't it interesting that we have the bigger dummies when no one actually has that level of health on multiplayer and you can't use these weapons on single-player?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I believe it only simulates "Defense Up" as the main ability, and as main it will only stack 3 times because you can only wear 3 pieces of gear.

I wonder how smaller the effect is as a sub-ability, I'm certain it will stack even further (as you can have it in more than 3 out of 12 slots) but I imagine the effect won't be that noticeable.

Also isn't it interesting that we have the bigger dummies when no one actually has that level of health on multiplayer and you can't use these weapons on single-player?

I thought you could use any weapons in single player... If anything, the bigger ones would probably be something from single player, like bigger enemies ya know. Why they would let you use any weapon in this room, even though single player and multiplayer may or may not have different weapons to chose from? Because they don't need to have a separate room for each mode. It seems like is the general weapon test room, for all your inky weapons.

I was asking about the difference between main abilities and subs on the stream... Stupid man would not acknowledge me. I was so so sad.

 

[Draayder]

I'm glad they did this, it's a very nice quality of life choice and makes testing stuff even that much easier. I'm glad they're making it so easy to get numbers for stuff.

 

[Lyn]

Very interesting, I think this will be useful for testing items. :)

 

[RespawningJesus]

Those dummies had defense up stickers on them? They still seem to pop easy though. Maybe defense up isn't that great of an ability?

 

[Unknownkid]

So if we go off this video and look at 1:14 with the Kraken -

One can determine how strong each Defense Up is. For example, the Kraken does 160 damage to the big dummies and the mini dummies with no stickers.

Once it attack the Dummy with one Defense patch, it did 151.9. This is about 5% damage deduction from Default.
Afterward, it attack the Dummy with two Defense patches, it did 145.2. This is a 9.25% damage deduction from Default.
Now, if we assume the scaling the same, then the Dummy with three Defense patches will have 13~14% damage deduction from Default. This will might make Kraken do 137.6~139.2 damage.

Now, even with the information, you will going to die to the Kraken, Grenades, and Chargers regardless how many Defense Up. They all do about 160+ damage. Inking's max health is 100 HP and doesn't seem there is a way to increase that. You need have at least 38% damage deduction to survive and assuming diminishing return will be effect - you are not going to reach that with Defense Up x 3 main slots and x9 secondary slots.

This doesn't mean Defense Up is useless. With one Defense Up patch, you can survive Killer Wail (it does 100damage based on the video). You will be able to tank more Shooter Attacks if they don't buff their own attack. I guess we will have to way and see.

Nice Find btw!

 

[Saltystick]

Judging by this it seems like the main purpose of defense up is to survive a few more normal hits rather than be able to tank grenades/specials. Good to know

 

[Xeiros]

This doesn't mean Defense Up is useless. With one Defense Up patch, you can survive Killer Wail (it does 100damage based on the video). You will be able to tank more Shooter Attacks if they don't buff their own attack. I guess we will have to way and see.

Hahahahahha No.

Just no.

Watch

If you need me to explain it to you, the Killer Wail hits both the one and two defense dummies and does get ready for it more than 100 damage to and destroys them! It even does 500 to the one in the back row! Whoa!

Did you honestly believe that a single main defense up ability would be enough to tank a Killer Wail, a special weapon that by its very nature a player must fill a separate meter to even gain access to? Do you have any idea how unbalanced that would be? Do you fathom how worthless it would make the Killer Wail and subsequently how obscenely broken defense up would be if a single instance in a main slot was all it took to neutralize the damage of a special weapon? Did you really think the developers were that stupid? Give them some credit.

 

[Unknownkid]

Hahahahahha No.

Just no.

Watch

If you need me to explain it to you, the Killer Wail hits both the one and two defense dummies and does get ready for it more than 100 damage to and destroys them! It even does 500 to the one in the back row! Whoa!

Did you honestly believe that a single main defense up ability would be enough to tank a Killer Wail, a special weapon that by its very nature a player must fill a separate meter to even gain access to? Do you have any idea how unbalanced that would be? Do you fathom how worthless it would make the Killer Wail if a single defense main perk was all it took to neutralize its damage? Did you really think the developers were that stupid? Give them some credit.

Woah... sir! Come down! I obviously miscalculated. In my video, it did 100 damage because that all it takes to kill a regular inking. When you use a Charge Shot on the same dummy, it overkill the dummy with 140-160 damages (depending on the gun). The same with Grenades (180 damage). This is why I assume the Killer Wail did a flat damage of 100 while other specials did over that (see Kraken/ Ink Strike). With that being said...

Thank you for the correction. Though the questioning was unnecessary.
EDIT: Oh actually! Thank you for the video! I can complete my analysis.

3 Defense Patches Dummy took 140 damage from Kraken. This is a 12.5% damage deduction.

 

[DaBoss]

Yea, those are the numbers I got from a while back: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=164170189&postcount=805

+1 means you take around 5.1% less damage
+2 means you take around 9.3% less damage
+3 means you take around 12.5% less damage

I used an older range testing video and those are the numbers I got rounded to the tenths digit. And yea, I would assume those are numbers with each Defense Up being a main ability.

 

[ndayadn]

I'm very glad that this is the case. I remember talking in the shoutbox about this a bit back. It's a good thing defense is more along the lines of "useless" than too good. Making it so you can survive normal attacks easier but having specials/OHKO's have an appropriate attack number makes it much more fun. I also hope I can assume atk up will never give a normal shot 100+ atk.

Only thing I would be curious to see is if the charger goes "overkill" only when the meter is charged fully, and if not the extent to which a partially charged shot with atk up would do, factoring in environmental ink damage as well.

 

[Saltystick]

I'm very glad that this is the case. I remember talking in the shoutbox about this a bit back. It's a good thing defense is more along the lines of "useless" than too good. Making it so you can survive normal attacks easier but having specials/OHKO's have an appropriate attack number makes it much more fun. I also hope I can assume atk up will never give a normal shot 100+ atk.

Only thing I would be curious to see is if the charger goes "overkill" only when the meter is charged fully, and if not the extent to which a partially charged shot with atk up would do, factoring in environmental ink damage as well.

I guess one atk. up compensates for one def. up but that's just assumptions.

IIRC the charger does indeed only go "overkill" when it's fully charged.

 

[DaBoss]

So I was watching this and I noticed he went into the Firing Range with a Damage Up ability (it was his main ability on the Clothing gear slot). You can see the Testing Range part at around the hour mark.

He used the Splat Roller.and the Kelp Splat Charger (same stats as the normal Splat Charger). Some GIFs:

We know the base damage of those two weapons:
Splat Roller does 140 damage with no Damage Up against an enemy with no Defense Up.
Splat Charger (fully charged) does 160 damage with no Damage Up against an enemy with no Defense Up.

So we can calculate how much of a damage increase Damage Up gives, these are the two numbers I got using both of two weapons' numbers.
Splat Roller: 9.0714%
Splat Charger: 9.0625%

So it can be concluded that Damage Up increases the damage by about 9.1%. And here comes the interesting part.

It seems Defense Up's defense boost scales differently for damage taken by weapons with a Damage Up boost. I made a chart below to show the numbers. The numbers with a question mark beside them are numbers I got from cross multiplication, but I'm pretty sure they are right, especially the +1 for the Splat Charger. I also made a chart for the Splat Roller's non-Damage Up numbers cause those were all shown in a video (I believe someone also has it posted in the thread already).

Splat Charger [+1 Damage Up]
| Defense Up | Damage | % Decrease (+0) |
|     +0     | 174.5  |     - 0.0%      |
|     +1     | 160.0? |     - 8.3%      |
|     +2     | 152.3  |     -12.7%      |
|     +3     | ?????? |                 |

Splat Roller [+1 Damage Up]
| Defense Up | Damage | % Decrease (+0) |
|     +0     | 152.7  |     - 0.0%      |
|     +1     | 140.0  |     - 8.3%      |
|     +2     | 133.3? |     -12.7%      |
|     +3     | ?????? |                 |

Splat Roller [No Damage Up]
| Defense Up | Damage | % Decrease (+0) |
|     +0     | 140.0  |     - 0.0%      |
|     +1     | 132.9  |     - 5.1%      |
|     +2     | 127.1  |     - 9.2%      |
|     +3     | 122.5  |     -12.5%      |

It's interesting how it seems that +1 Defense Up will negate +1 Damage Up. And yea, that's it, I think lol.

 

[RespawningJesus]

So damage up and defense up are pretty much limited. They cancel each other out, and they really only augment/debuff your primary. Damage up might be worthwhile on weaker weapons in the Shooter set, but for charge and roller they really aren't needed, due to the power that they wield already. Defense up is really only good against shooter weapons as well. Well so much that I have seen so far. Who knows, defense up might let you barely live from a Charger or Roller splash. Of course, this is just pure speculation, so who knows, they might be useful. But at least they aren't broken by the looks of it.

 

[Trieste Sp]

Hmm.. interesting. At least we know that both damage up and defense up are balanced. I can also see they both may be useful in testing the weaponry.