My opinions on the maps competitive balance.

[Citrus]

Walleye is definitely one of my favorites, because, as flc said, there is a ton of depth to the map

 

[Nair]

Splatzones:

Good (At least 3 decent options): Walleye, Urchin, Saltspray, Port Mackeral, Arowana Mall, Moray, Kelp Dome, Bluefish Depot

Bad (Minimal Options) : Blackbelly


Explanation:

Blackbelly: You have 2 choke-points to worry about. 2 Squids in Center, 2 Squid on the side often covers every choke point. It's disgusting. If they have a sniper who can aim on the tower, you're in for a rough match trying to take back the zones or take them over. They're right next to each other, and it's hard to push out once you've been pushed in. There's 2 ways to come through the center, but they're so close you get bodied by someone just camping 1 spot. They can cover 2/3 options themselves. It's really bad, lmao.
Walleye: Players have to spread themselves out for full coverage, so the team has a way of overpowering the enemy and coming back if they're good enough.
Urchin: " "
Port Mackeral: Elaboration on that being, there's 3 different areas on the top platforms where they can go and apply pressure on each side. You have a total of like 8 ways to push out of your base. Honestly, it surprises me how people get bodied in the same 2 spots, when there are far more options that they could use.
Saltspray: Tbh, there are a lot of ways to destroy the center control. Seriously, a ton of ways to get in and disrupt the control. Go on enemy side and hit them from behind. Go through the center, with special coverage. It's just super even imho.
Arowana: " "
Kelp Dome: Easy to disrupt, many ways around it.
Bluefish: Kind've tricky, and I would've rather there have been an easier way of getting to certain areas to prevent snipers more easily. But you have enough that you can deal with it.

Tower Control:

Good: Arowana, Urchin, Kelp, Blackbelly, Saltspray

(Generally: Many ways to stop and take over tower.)

Bad: Port

Literally disgusting. 3 lines close quarters, no real "round-about" way. Nothing. You're just kinda screwed. :(

IDK: Moray (Never played this version, but I'd imagine it'd be good. There's so many ways to move around Moray as is by dropping down, etc. That you should be more than fine.


Just my opinions on it. I wish I could stream and point out different things, but it's what I can do. And believe me, I'm super aggressive in this game, so I know what's an option, and what's not generally when trying to take something over again.

Right now some stages seem bad, but I think it's only because a lot of other inklings just buster their way through and just try to brute their way to victory. (Like me, mostly).

 

[UnLucky]

I just think it's inexcusable that the tower's entire route takes 20 seconds on Saltspray Rig. Lose just one team fight and the match is decided.

I hate Urchin Underpass in Turf/Zones because of how easy it is to defend the middle, but it all changes in Tower since you're forced passed the choke.

 

[Nair]

I just think it's inexcusable that the tower's entire route takes 20 seconds on Saltspray Rig. Lose just one team fight and the match is decided.

I hate Urchin Underpass in Turf/Zones because of how easy it is to defend the middle, but it all changes in Tower since you're forced passed the choke.

Yeah, but I feel like you still have options. I'm willing to bet, like me, you probably just jump in and attack because you feel you have to. When in reality you should save for a special and force them back or to an area and stuff. Idk, I feel like people don't use that strat enough. Granted, it is super hard to get back into Warehouse. But you have 3 different ways. (Left, Middle, Right) I never see people perfectly defend them. Always one area is just dead, and if you're good you can force your team in the advantage, and choke the enemy knowing they don't know the choke points.

Saltspray? I don't know, it seems easy, but in reality there's a ton of ways for someone to disrupt the tower. Hell, the tower practically is in spawn for like 5-10 seconds. The only way it works out is if your team is super coordinated, and you don't manage to push out. There's 2 main ways people escape (center, and whichever is closer to the finish line)

When in reality, there's a 3rd option that takes longer that's never used. But if you know your team is in danger, it's a good one to take and assassinate the entire enemy team from behind. If they try and defend that spot too, then often they'll be spread too thin in the front and you can just take over. IDK.

I just think we don't have enough experience yet overall. Myself included.

That said, I will admit that the distance you have to travel for the 3rd option is a bit long. Maybe give an opening via a climbable wall or something like they did for Urchin's tower. It'd probably alone make a huge difference.

 

[Blue24]

You can argue tier maps for Tower Control due to short routes. You can argue tier maps in terms of getting points for Turf War. Splat Zones....eh, i don't see it.

 

[LemonPlaid]

Yeah this idea of a tier list is pretty bad. All maps on all gamemodes offer more than one option to approach splat zones or critical neutral areas. Almost all maps are 100% balanced for both teams with the insignificant exception of Bluefin Depot on Splat Zones. This basically is just a list of favorite stages. Preference should not play a role in tiers.

 

[UnLucky]

@Nair That's the thing, I don't like any of the options at U.U. If one team is camping the middle choke, they are at a huge advantage to force a standstill. If they have any map awareness at all, they can also camp the nearby route/Zone from the same spot, also with the advantage of higher ground. Pushing from that route is only viable in Turf since there's no single objective so you can go straight into their base while ignoring your own. The only other route is a prime Charger perch with a long hallway that inhibits speed and stealth.

And then when invading their spawn, you can camp one of their exits from the high ground where they have only one route passed you. It's not like that grate helps them reach you either since they're defenseless on it. No other map favors invaders this hard.

For Saltspray, my only real complaint is the track time. You are absolutely in a rush since by the time you get there, the tower is already down the wall and heading away from your spawn. Alternate paths and specials take too many precious seconds so your only option is to rush the middle and hope for a clutch miracle.

Seriously, die even once with default respawn time and you'll have 5-10 seconds total to retake the tower. No idea why the tower doesn't start/end on those central pipes/boxes in the middle/bottom.

 

[Kaliafornia]

Yeah this idea of a tier list is pretty bad. All maps on all gamemodes offer more than one option to approach splat zones or critical neutral areas. Almost all maps are 100% balanced for both teams with the insignificant exception of Bluefin Depot on Splat Zones. This basically is just a list of favorite stages. Preference should not play a role in tiers.

I would agree with the exception of your calling Bluefin Depot unbalanced. I've never notice a disadvantage depending on the side. In fact it is my favorite map.

 

[Agosta44]

My opinion on maps for each Ranked mode. The only one I find unplayable for Splat Zones is Urchin Underpass. It's so easy to 100-0 on that map it's disgusting.

 

[WaifuRaccoonBL]

For maps that are apparently "ruined by E-liters," I will now tell you the secret to beating them.

You ready? Bombs.

The way to beat an E-liters is to interrupt them from firing, and keep them from firing and charging. Eliter's have the worse charge speed and mobility of the game. They can't really afford to miss a shot. Especially with a horrendous ink consumption. However, when a bomb comes their way, they are forced to retreat. And with more condensed maps like Arowana Mall and Moray Towers, (the very maps that people like to say E-liters ruin), any second they aren't doing their job is a second for everyone to capture the point and or, take a backdoor and kill the E-liter themselves.

Splat bombs and Sunction Bombs are more recommended than Burst Bombs. Hard to threaten with them, and spamming all the required to get a kill on the opponent leaves you with no ink where as Splat and Sunction leaves you with some.

Lastly, and probably importantly, range of the bombs. Now, it's no secret the E-liters have massive range. Finding spots where you can reach them without being spotted can be tricky, and sometimes you need to spend time setting it up with the right momentum...that is unless you use a certain ability.



Yep. I'm saying the Bomb Range Up ability is a good one. (Especially for Splat Charger mains.)
It allows you to either reach places with bombs you couldn't before, or make hard to reach places, easier. Perfect for dealing with E-liters.

And yes, I know you are going to ask what if you don't want to use Bombs or the bomb range up ability. There is always the Inkzooka to use.

Though, this is the flaw with this tier list. Ultimately, someone is going to have to use bombs when we actually able to form teams.

Honestly, I've been using bombs on Moray Tower Splat zones and I've been having so much fun. I've even rose up to Rank A. I also discovered bombs even helps with some tricky E-liter spots on Bluefin.

 

[UnLucky]

I would agree with the exception of your calling Bluefin Depot unbalanced. I've never notice a disadvantage depending on the side. In fact it is my favorite map.

You can't just "disagree" with the fact that Bluefin has slight differences between each side. It is non symmetrical. Might not be significant, but it's there.

I still feel that several maps are unbalanced, even if both teams start out equally. Weapons are obvious but should mostly be anticipated. What I don't like is if leads are especially defensible OR easily turned around. It makes it extremely frustrating like no matter how good you are you can't win. It sucks if an early lead is all you need, and it also sucks if it's worthless to try until the last 30 seconds.

This happens because maps are not 100% balanced for both teams 100% of the time at all points. And they shouldn't be. The middle should be neutral, and your team's spawn should be advantageous so you can push out. Various other points can flip, but it shouldn't lean too hard one way or another.

 

[LemonPlaid]

You can't just "disagree" with the fact that Bluefin has slight differences between each side. It is non symmetrical. Might not be significant, but it's there.

I still feel that several maps are unbalanced, even if both teams start out equally. Weapons are obvious but should mostly be anticipated. What I don't like is if leads are especially defensible OR easily turned around. It makes it extremely frustrating like no matter how good you are you can't win. It sucks if an early lead is all you need, and it also sucks if it's worthless to try until the last 30 seconds.

This happens because maps are not 100% balanced for both teams 100% of the time at all points. And they shouldn't be. The middle should be neutral, and your team's spawn should be advantageous so you can push out. Various other points can flip, but it shouldn't lean too hard one way or another.

Amen to this whole post. This is how counterpicks should be determined when competitive teams get accommodated to the scene. That and of course certain weapons on certain maps (i.e. E-liters on Moray)

 

[Kaliafornia]

You can't just "disagree" with the fact that Bluefin has slight differences between each side. It is non symmetrical. Might not be significant, but it's there.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact its not perfectly symmetrical, I am disagreeing to the fact its significant enough to become an unbalanced map on that alone. In fact its barely noticeable.

I still feel that several maps are unbalanced, even if both teams start out equally. Weapons are obvious but should mostly be anticipated. What I don't like is if leads are especially defensible OR easily turned around. It makes it extremely frustrating like no matter how good you are you can't win. It sucks if an early lead is all you need, and it also sucks if it's worthless to try until the last 30 seconds.

This happens because maps are not 100% balanced for both teams 100% of the time at all points. And they shouldn't be. The middle should be neutral, and your team's spawn should be advantageous so you can push out. Various other points can flip, but it shouldn't lean too hard one way or another.

I'd argue that this has way less to do with the actual map being bad or unbalanced and more to do with your team not working together well enough or being on the same skill level.

"No matter how good you are you cant win" you are judging that based solely on your own play and not your team's play as a whole. You aren't good enough to win that match if your team cant get it together. You can be an A+ but if you are on a team with all B- against an all A team the odds are staked against you. Likewise if those As cant get it together no matter how much they may individually be able to take on the 3 B-'s, as a team once they loose control it isn't hard then for the A+ to lead the suppression and shut it down. Once we can have private rooms and team matches I feel a lot less people will stop complaining about certain maps being unbalanced. Fundamentally its still a team game and its what your success is based on, no matter how OP you feel your play is.

You aren't breaking through because the other team is better at holding position. You are losing at the last 30 seconds because your team got too comfortable or overextended and tried to spawn camp/special spam and died rather than protecting the zone/tower. I would bet good money that the reason you aren't/are winning matches isn't because a certain ramp is skewed 45 degrees to the left of your spawn vs the other teams. That's ludicrous.

 

[flc]

For maps that are apparently "ruined by E-liters," I will now tell you the secret to beating them.

You ready? Bombs.

while I won't dispute that bombs over the right alley wall are effective for that one particular spot, elitres should not be standing there and all it takes is one person guarding that alley and it's completely unusable. and no matter how much bomb range you have, it's not gonna change the fact that elitres outrange every bomb in the game and there are very few places to take advantage of line of sight

basically the problem isn't that elitres can't be forced out of position, it's that what is needed to actually remove them is often such that you become very vulnerable to the other people on their team. and if they aren't forced out of position, they can see the entire map except the right alley... which is so easy to lock down by a single js or 96 deco or even tentatek that the map is broken as a result

moray has similar problems, to be fair, but the difference is that elitres are virtually unassailable on arowana (where the only way to take out an elitre on either catwalk is to be either in mid or on one of the alleyway exits, and both options are awful), and even if they miss all their shots, the only way someone can go is either down into their lower mid (where the elitre still has vision on them), through the alleyway (which is easy to check on the gamepad), or, in zones, across to the left catwalk (which is free shots for the elitre)

meanwhile, an assault on an elitre on moray can come from a very wide angle, all shots have a narrow window before the player escapes (meaning a two-man push will almost always work), and once someone is in your base on moray there's no telling where they will be and the advantage switches to short-range weapons

You're correct. I did say 'tends to be better' and not is better. Blackbelly I feel is very well executed (in SZ) because having good knowledge of all the various angles doesn't allow you to pull any silly shenanigans but does allow you an advantage over your opponents. There's a lot to a good competitive map and I was trying to be as simple as humanely possible because lolsquidboards. Arowana has more problems then just e-liter tho :p.

It's not a matter of 'too complex' but rather leaning to some kind of extreme (Moray's vertical-ness, Bluefin's unbreachable one-way mid section in SZ, etc). Blackbelly does do this with the crazy amount of elevation in a relatively small area but I felt it was done well.

I still think that tournaments (assuming they ran SZ only) that the maps in 'Really Good' would be great neutral stages and the maps in 'Okay' makes good counter-pick material if that were to ever be a thing in competitve. That's the kind of thing thats hard to say before 4v4 comes out.

Offtopic but how was the VoD analysis? I never felt I could learn much going back to rewatch. That seems far more suited towards 4v4 strat analysis.

this explains a lot, though I'd still recommend at least stating your original meaning along with the for-kids version so this sort of thing doesn't happen again

though I still disagree about moray (the size is annoying, but we're just not used to it), I can at least see where you're coming from

as for the vod analysis... well, I was more wanting to show people what I don't say in my stream commentary that I nonetheless think of.

 

[UnLucky]

@Hari Judari well that's why the post you quoted said it was insignificant... So really you're not in disagreement after all.

About teams, uh, I think it's a bit more than "git gud." Like just look at the points on the map and you can tell what is advantageous terrain. Whether winning or not, it always tends towards domination on that map for me, and I feel it's because the map gives too much of an advantage.

But in any case, are you going to say the map itself can't influence the outcome of a match? As in, the only reason for a loss is because they just weren't better than the other side. No such thing as unfair advantage, so if you can't push through any part of the map no matter what the enemy is doing, you're just bad.

 

[Kaliafornia]

@Hari Judari well that's why the post you quoted said it was insignificant... So really you're not in disagreement after all.

About teams, uh, I think it's a bit more than "git gud." Like just look at the points on the map and you can tell what is advantageous terrain. Whether winning or not, it always tends towards domination on that map for me, and I feel it's because the map gives too much of an advantage.

But in any case, are you going to say the map itself can't influence the outcome of a match? As in, the only reason for a loss is because they just weren't better than the other side. No such thing as unfair advantage, so if you can't push through any part of the map no matter what the enemy is doing, you're just bad.

Going off of the reddit thread they linked to make their case contradicts them saying its insignificant as the OP makes it seem like it is pretty significant and I was disagreeing with that.

Concerning teams, with the maps we currently have in Splatoon there is no map that favors one team more than the other. Sure there are advantageous positions in the map (unless it was entirely flat terrain there is no way it would be 100% neutral) but there are still ways to get around those positions and take them down. I hate saying "git gud" however if your problem is you feel another team is completely dominating yours consistently on a certain map it IS likely because you are uncomfortable playing at that skill level of the map and need to essentially "git gud" in the simplest of terms.

 

[superman]

meanwhile, an assault on an elitre on moray can come from a very wide angle, all shots have a narrow window before the player escapes (meaning a two-man push will almost always work)

can you elaborate on this? the wide angle for shots is basically what gives chargers such a ridiculous advantage on this map and I can't see any other options to push an e-liter other than climbing up the wall. I also maybe can barely see a two-man push across mid working against an absolutely incompetent e-liter. Against a somewhat decent e-liter you shouldn't be able to come even close to being in range to throw bombs up there.

I don't know maybe I hold chargers to too high of a standard but you CAN'T even drop to mid without dying against a braindead charger and you're basically a sitting duck going through the zone because there's barely any cover.

IMO this map is not only broken, it has somewhat broken ranked the other day, you would lose if you don't have an e-liter on your team but if you got 3 e-liters when the other map is drawn you were almost as doomed.

 

[WaifuRaccoonBL]

while I won't dispute that bombs over the right alley wall are effective for that one particular spot, elitres should not be standing there and all it takes is one person guarding that alley and it's completely unusable. and no matter how much bomb range you have, it's not gonna change the fact that elitres outrange every bomb in the game and there are very few places to take advantage of line of sight

basically the problem isn't that elitres can't be forced out of position, it's that what is needed to actually remove them is often such that you become very vulnerable to the other people on their team. and if they aren't forced out of position, they can see the entire map except the right alley... which is so easy to lock down by a single js or 96 deco or even tentatek that the map is broken as a result

moray has similar problems, to be fair, but the difference is that elitres are virtually unassailable on arowana (where the only way to take out an elitre on either catwalk is to be either in mid or on one of the alleyway exits, and both options are awful), and even if they miss all their shots, the only way someone can go is either down into their lower mid (where the elitre still has vision on them), through the alleyway (which is easy to check on the gamepad), or, in zones, across to the left catwalk (which is free shots for the elitre)

meanwhile, an assault on an elitre on moray can come from a very wide angle, all shots have a narrow window before the player escapes (meaning a two-man push will almost always work), and once someone is in your base on moray there's no telling where they will be and the advantage switches to short-range weapons

There needs to be a couple things said.

First, an E-liter can not focus on two targets at the same time. You may be thinking, well of course, but this is important for later.

Second, you can spam bombs faster then they can charge and reach you.

Here's what all that means. You are right in the sense there really isn't a perfectly safe place to throw bombs...but the thing is you get plenty of opportunities to throw bombs because of the very nature that an eliter has to focus on someone else eventually or else they are not doing their job.

Now as for being vulnerable to the other members of the opponent's team, I'm going to show you where I throw bombs:

Seeing how I am not in the center of the map, it's hard to be interrupted. And even if someone comes my way, I can easily see them and stop them.

And even if this means the Eliter will have enough time to charge and aim at me, thats just it, they would charge and aim at me. And while the eliter is focused on me, and the fact that I defeated an opponent coming at me, means there is only 2 people that can be focused on my team trying to break through which is hopefully 3 at the time.

And if one of my team members breaks through, then I don't have to worry about the eliter anymore since they can deal with it themselves and I can focus on defending the base.

Bonus points for 2 bomb users since both can distract an eliter.

I also don't even have to stay on that platform. If I find the coast is clear, I could still throw a bomb up there in the center area.

I would also like to know what you mean by the assault paragraph.

can you elaborate on this? the wide angle for shots is basically what gives chargers such a ridiculous advantage on this map and I can't see any other options to push an e-liter other than climbing up the wall. I also maybe can barely see a two-man push across mid working against an absolutely incompetent e-liter. Against a somewhat decent e-liter you shouldn't be able to come even close to being in range to throw bombs up there.

I don't know maybe I hold chargers to too high of a standard but you CAN'T even drop to mid without dying against a braindead charger and you're basically a sitting duck going through the zone because there's barely any cover.

IMO this map is not only broken, it has somewhat broken ranked the other day, you would lose if you don't have an e-liter on your team but if you got 3 e-liters when the other map is drawn you were almost as doomed.

Read this post and the previous one on how to deal with eliters.

 

[superman]

First, an E-liter can not focus on two targets at the same time. You may be thinking, well of course, but this is important for later

correct! what about four e-litres? Or other teammates? I mean having one guaranteed kill if someone wants to go to mid results in an immediate 3v4 situation, you won't ever win out on sacrificing a guy just to push an e-liter

Second, you can spam bombs faster then they can charge and reach you.

What? I actually have ink recovery and ink saver gear equipped and an e-litre still charges faster, if I need to get even more ink saver sub and ink recovery perks where do my bomb range perks go?

Seeing how I am not in the center of the map, it's hard to be interrupted. And even if someone comes my way, I can easily see them and stop them.

so I just tested this with 3 bomb range up main perks, the farthest I've gotten a any bomb was to about the balloon cover (cant remember if its there in splat zones / tower control only had the recon mode for turf war available). This isn't even close to pushing an e-liter out of range, he could even sit on the far edge of the platform and still have the range to reach you where you are, that position is the epitomy of a sitting duck. that's what I meant with "maybe I hold charger players to too high of a standard" because you should never be able to get one into trouble like this.


I'm 99% sure that 4x e-litre is unbeatable but I'd like to be proven wrong.

 

[LemonPlaid]

Going off of the reddit thread they linked to make their case contradicts them saying its insignificant as the OP makes it seem like it is pretty significant and I was disagreeing with that.

Concerning teams, with the maps we currently have in Splatoon there is no map that favors one team more than the other. Sure there are advantageous positions in the map (unless it was entirely flat terrain there is no way it would be 100% neutral) but there are still ways to get around those positions and take them down. I hate saying "git gud" however if your problem is you feel another team is completely dominating yours consistently on a certain map it IS likely because you are uncomfortable playing at that skill level of the map and need to essentially "git gud" in the simplest of terms.

Dude the link was to explain what was unbalanced about it. I literally said it was insignificant in regards to its balance. Pacing is a problem on certain maps and controlling certain points on certain maps leads to more difficult comebacks.