Trizooka is the Only Special Right now that Needs a Nerf

[Umbreonfan]

People keep saying nerf pencil nerf tacticooler. Except I don't really want 3 splash back. Tacticooler is preventing one weapon from dominating the meta. Trizooka is the only special that feels overtuned. All I like is a start up nerf and a nerf to the indirect hits.

Nintendo right now should only focus on buffing the weaker things that are barely functional for example, weapons like dynamo. Except they buff things that aren't the main issue of the weapon. If they buff other backliners maybe they could compete with other weapons and be viable.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Crab meta ended long before zooka and cooler became popular. Triple crab won't be coming back anytime soon even if they do nerf cooler.

 

[isaac4]

Crab meta ended long before zooka and cooler became popular. Triple crab won't be coming back anytime soon even if they do.nerf cooler.

Rip Inkjet meta

 

[Umbreonfan]

Crab meta ended long before zooka and cooler became popular. Triple crab won't be coming back anytime soon even if they do.nerf cooler.

Ah good.

 

[isaac4]

I do agree that Cooler should still stay good though but I don't think keeping all of your special charge after dying is healthy for the game.

 

[chaotik0]

bolding and underlining stuff so you can skim and not have to read this whole mess but still get an understanding of what i'm saying, non bolded and underlined are explanations and extra details that can probably be skipped if you just want the general message

nerfing tacticooler isn't that necessary, but pencil most definitely is. it completely kicks out every other backline and almost every other cooler support. and if every backline got buffed to be as good as viable as pencil right now, that would not be good for the game (although i been playing chargers recently and will gladly take undeserved buffs). pencil deserves nerfs as much as trizooka

also, did we forget about inkjet meta..?
the whole reason that became a thing was because crab got toned back, and inkjet got a massive buff. after inkjet got toned back, trizooka got a massive buff and now that's the meta. it's a cycle that we have seen throughout the entire game. i'd also like to mention that tacticooler was most healthy during the inkjet meta, it was used as an option to make dying to inkjet less devastating, allowing your team to fight through it and have dying not be a huge loss. but now it is absolutely necessary on your team because of the buffs that it got and just the way it works. tacticooler can use some nerfing too, but it isn't as necessary as trizooka and pencil, because it can still enable weapons and there are multiple options for cooler support once pencil gets nerfed.

triple splash won't come back, maybe i misinterpreted what you said though and it's just that you don't want a similar situation to triple splash, but that can only happen if things get buffed too much, not if the best options in the game that are dominating every other weapon are nerfed. i'd also like to point out that crab meta was a period of time where the game was still being figured out, it hadn't been released for that long, and discoveries like stamper being strong were being made. people had to get creative to find workarounds and other viable options and i think that's cool. today, we already know what's good because the game has been out for so long and we been dealing with this meta for so long. also, i remember crab being extremely extremely dominant in NA but seeing teams in japan still run things like tetra dualies and then hear NA teams talk about how much faster they are and how much quicker they discovered what was good. that last part i think happened more towards the end of crab's reign, but still.

buffing the weaker options will absolutely help the game be a lot better, but they still won't get their opportunity to shine if other stuff is too good, unless they get buffed to that level, which would be too much. also, looking at the last balance patch, it is nice that they are taking a look at weaker weapons, but it was not enough and specifically they are not giving buffs that those weapons really needed, only small things that are somewhat helpful but don't really change much. i think in general they have been a bit too safe when it comes to balance patches, but at the same time they were willing to nerf and buff things unnecessarily (sorry but machine was slightly deserved though a bit too harsh, at least they gave a good reason for it though) and raise or lower points for special on stuff that don't deserve it. it's very strange. also remember, it doesn't matter what we hope for or what we need in terms of balance changes, it's going to be something that they ultimately decide is best for the game and something we will just have to deal with. i don't think any of us are having any conversations with the dev team, talking about decisions they should be making for 1 aspect of the entire game that they are making right now.
i still hope for more and better changes because i think we will get them, if not now, maybe at the end of the games life like they did with the last 2 games

small unrelated bit: does bolding and underlining make it easier to go through? sometimes i yap out way too much and am really afraid of it being completely terrible to read and basically incomprehensible and incoherent and just a bunch of ramblings

 

[reelrollsweat]

i dont think ppl want cooler to go away, iirc a lot of top players have said its healthy for the meta bc it enables so many aggro playstyles that wouldnt work otherwise. the main reason they want cooler/pencil nerf is bc pencil has too much of a monopoly on cooler options since it paints so well and counters other backlines, and cooler itself enables special spam too much. imo a pencil paint nerf and a special saver nerf after dying while coolered would make it perfect

i dont think a cooler nerf would revert the meta back to double splash double machine tho. i like that the super strong options from previous metas werent nerfed to hell and are still relevant (not so much ballpoint bc of pencil, but youll still see splash/vdualies and machine sometimes) so i dont think killing cooler entirely is likely

also just for the record dynamo isnt in nearly as bad a spot as ppl think it is, vdynamo is a niche cooler pick on certain mapmodes. phantom thief took a game off jackpot in worlds grand finals bc they ran vdynamo on flounder zones lol. i cant think of any undertuned main weapons off the top of my head rn, dapples is quite weak but thats mostly a kit issue

 

[OnePotWonder]

bolding and underlining stuff so you can skim and not have to read this whole mess but still get an understanding of what i'm saying, non bolded and underlined are explanations and extra details that can probably be skipped if you just want the general message

nerfing tacticooler isn't that necessary, but pencil most definitely is. it completely kicks out every other backline and almost every other cooler support. and if every backline got buffed to be as good as viable as pencil right now, that would not be good for the game (although i been playing chargers recently and will gladly take undeserved buffs). pencil deserves nerfs as much as trizooka

also, did we forget about inkjet meta..?
the whole reason that became a thing was because crab got toned back, and inkjet got a massive buff. after inkjet got toned back, trizooka got a massive buff and now that's the meta. it's a cycle that we have seen throughout the entire game. i'd also like to mention that tacticooler was most healthy during the inkjet meta, it was used as an option to make dying to inkjet less devastating, allowing your team to fight through it and have dying not be a huge loss. but now it is absolutely necessary on your team because of the buffs that it got and just the way it works. tacticooler can use some nerfing too, but it isn't as necessary as trizooka and pencil, because it can still enable weapons and there are multiple options for cooler support once pencil gets nerfed.

triple splash won't come back, maybe i misinterpreted what you said though and it's just that you don't want a similar situation to triple splash, but that can only happen if things get buffed too much, not if the best options in the game that are dominating every other weapon are nerfed. i'd also like to point out that crab meta was a period of time where the game was still being figured out, it hadn't been released for that long, and discoveries like stamper being strong were being made. people had to get creative to find workarounds and other viable options and i think that's cool. today, we already know what's good because the game has been out for so long and we been dealing with this meta for so long. also, i remember crab being extremely extremely dominant in NA but seeing teams in japan still run things like tetra dualies and then hear NA teams talk about how much faster they are and how much quicker they discovered what was good. that last part i think happened more towards the end of crab's reign, but still.

buffing the weaker options will absolutely help the game be a lot better, but they still won't get their opportunity to shine if other stuff is too good, unless they get buffed to that level, which would be too much. also, looking at the last balance patch, it is nice that they are taking a look at weaker weapons, but it was not enough and specifically they are not giving buffs that those weapons really needed, only small things that are somewhat helpful but don't really change much. i think in general they have been a bit too safe when it comes to balance patches, but at the same time they were willing to nerf and buff things unnecessarily (sorry but machine was slightly deserved though a bit too harsh, at least they gave a good reason for it though) and raise or lower points for special on stuff that don't deserve it. it's very strange. also remember, it doesn't matter what we hope for or what we need in terms of balance changes, it's going to be something that they ultimately decide is best for the game and something we will just have to deal with. i don't think any of us are having any conversations with the dev team, talking about decisions they should be making for 1 aspect of the entire game that they are making right now.
i still hope for more and better changes because i think we will get them, if not now, maybe at the end of the games life like they did with the last 2 games

small unrelated bit: does bolding and underlining make it easier to go through? sometimes i yap out way too much and am really afraid of it being completely terrible to read and basically incomprehensible and incoherent and just a bunch of ramblings

Before I make my point, I would like to offer that bolding and underlining was helpful, though I recommend trying italic instead of bold, as the bolded text can be a bit difficult to read.

Tri-Zooka and Snipewriter definitely need nerfs, but I also feel like Tacticooler isn't perfect in its current state. It does make splatting opponents feel a lot less meaningful when they just come back with all of their special charge.
Nerfing Cooler's Special Saver effect to 29 AP seems fair, since it would still be a significant effect.

 

[chaotik0]

Before I make my point, I would like to offer that bolding and underlining was helpful, though I recommend trying italic instead of bold, as the bolded text can be a bit difficult to read.

Tri-Zooka and Snipewriter definitely need nerfs, but I also feel like Tacticooler isn't perfect in its current state. It does make splatting opponents feel a lot less meaningful when they just come back with all of their special charge.
Nerfing Cooler's Special Saver effect to 29 AP seems fair, since it would still be a significant effect.

yeah it could be nerfed, i just give it a little pass because it's the only good support special, and there are plenty of options that can be used for it when pencil is nerfed, so i think nerfing pencil is more important than nerfing cooler. also if just trizooka and pencil get nerfed i see that as a win, with the patches we been getting it could be way worse. it may be a bare minimum but at this point it's good enough.

also 29 AP you only lose 10%, i feel like that wouldn't change much. i think im a fan of removing the special saver part of it entirely but i don't actually know how that will play out in reality, it's a big reason for the special being good, but instant respawns and the insane duration is already enough to make it stay good though, right?

also youre right bold is actually a bit hard to see, especially paired with the underline, italics would probably work a lot better

 

[isaac4]

(sorry but machine was slightly deserved though a bit too harsh, at least they gave a good reason for it though)

It was VERY harsh
I don't think most people understand how bad the fire rate nerf ends up hurting almost every aspect of the weapon while also making it feel worse to play, this is on top of previous nerfs and the LDE nerf that came later which also hurt Machine (LDE needed to get nerfed though).
I also don't even agree with their reasoning for it but I should probably make a whole thread to talk about this lol.

Also, the idea of bolding and underling sections to make it easier to read through was smart.

 

[chaotik0]

It was VERY harsh
I don't think most people understand how bad the fire rate nerf ends up hurting almost every aspect of the weapon while also making it feel worse to play, this is on top of previous nerfs and the LDE nerf that came later which also hurt Machine (LDE needed to get nerfed though).
I also don't even agree with their reasoning for it but I should probably make a whole thread to talk about this lol.

Also, the idea of bolding and underling sections to make it easier to read through was smart.

at the time, machine was the only good midline because it was the only one with a good kit, so nobody was even considering other options. right now, why should anyone play any other backline in competitive when pencil outclasses all of them. back then, there was no reason for anyone to choose a different aoe midline. also their explanation was that they didn’t design the weapon to be a slayer, but it was able to do that anyway. i agree with this, but machine’s speed was enough to be a slayer only because of the pace of the game at the time. it probably deserved only like 2 or 3 frames nerf instead of the heckin 5. my beloved stamper got a bunch of nerfs too, and it was better for the game. 30% ink consumption nerf was a bit harsh, but spamming a 70 damage projectile, painting a ton, and still being able to throw a burst bomb was bad for the game.

also, sloshing machine neo still gets use because it has trizooka even with only a point sensor, so it wasn’t enough to kill the weapon entirely.

5 frames is still so crazy though especially on top of everything else. they basically just started bullying the weapon, every balance patch it was something.

also with the bolding and underlining, i want to be able say way too much but that’s inconsiderate for people who dont care about extra details and only want the general message. it allows anyone to discuss about everything i say, but the main part of what im saying is what most people will talk about anyway so why make them read everything

 

[ThestralZ]

Eh, the way I see it is if Pencil gets a paint nerf and we get a second backline with Cooler like Hydra, Cooler will be in a perfect balance place. Zooka needs more startup frames and more frames in between shots. Other than that, the game feels really good, just need to nerf splash wall and make some of the buffs for weaker weapons feel more impactful.

 

[reelrollsweat]

Eh, the way I see it is if Pencil gets a paint nerf and we get a second backline with Cooler like Hydra, Cooler will be in a perfect balance place. Zooka needs more startup frames and more frames in between shots. Other than that, the game feels really good, just need to nerf splash wall and make some of the buffs for weaker weapons feel more impactful.

heavy edit is already a cooler weapon that can flex between midline/backline, i think if pencil is nerfed itll see more use

also, why splash wall nerf ?

 

[isaac4]

at the time, machine was the only good midline because it was the only one with a good kit, so nobody was even considering other options. right now, why should anyone play any other backline in competitive when pencil outclasses all of them. back then, there was no reason for anyone to choose a different aoe midline. also their explanation was that they didn’t design the weapon to be a slayer, but it was able to do that anyway. i agree with this, but machine’s speed was enough to be a slayer only because of the pace of the game at the time. it probably deserved only like 2 or 3 frames nerf instead of the heckin 5. my beloved stamper got a bunch of nerfs too, and it was better for the game. 30% ink consumption nerf was a bit harsh, but spamming a 70 damage projectile, painting a ton, and still being able to throw a burst bomb was bad for the game.

also, sloshing machine neo still gets use because it has trizooka even with only a point sensor, so it wasn’t enough to kill the weapon entirely.

5 frames is still so crazy though especially on top of everything else. they basically just started bullying the weapon, every balance patch it was something.

also with the bolding and underlining, i want to be able say way too much but that’s inconsiderate for people who dont care about extra details and only want the general message. it allows anyone to discuss about everything i say, but the main part of what im saying is what most people will talk about anyway so why make them read everything

Yeah, I get that the dominance Machine had over other aoe midline options was INSANE and really limited weapon diversity but that was an issue with kit design, not because Machine as a main weapon was drastically better than everything else. A weapon like Pencil is at the top because of how the main weapon is able to paint, provide good chip damage, and quickly get its support special to enable its team better than any other weapon while also staying completely safe. It doesn't even need Sprinkler for the playstyle it goes for and if it didn't have Cooler it would still be farming for another special.

Machine is dependent on having a good kit that helps it play its role.
The only times it got any serious attention before Splatoon 3 was when it had Stingray and then Fizzy. Even then, Machine wasn't the weapon people would choose for Stingray and kMachine was stuck with Splashdown. That's why I think the weapon didn't need to get hit so hard, it's been around since Splatoon 1 and the only time it's been a problem is when every other midline weapon around it was weaker and the map design was at its worst. That linear, hallway design for the early Splatoon 3 maps made the weapon even stronger so I don't agree with the idea of nerfing the main weapon because of the devs own mistakes when designing kits and maps.

I also just believe that weapons shouldn't be held back just because they're top tier. I'm glad that Splash survived Crab meta even if I think they were too easy on it and I don't like how harshly they've nerfed Stamper. Stamper is a much better main weapon than Machine but it's such a sick weapon and deserves to be good.

There's A LOT more I could say about this but like I said earlier, I should probably make a separate thread for this whole topic. Last thing though, the fire rate nerf didn't kill the weapon but did hurt it in making it less fun to play. My enjoyment of Splatoon 3 is negatively impacted because my main weapon just feels worse.
Worse movement, worse dps, worse paint, and the LDE nerfs hurt it's already poor ink efficiency. It's especially a problem on Machine Neo that doesn't have a bomb to poke with so you really feel that fire rate nerf.
Not to say I don't enjoy playing it still, I clearly do from how much I talk about it lol, but I can see all these nerfs absolutely killing Machine in a future Splatoon game where it has a weaker kit plus any indirect nerfs from the nature of just being a different game.



Slightly unrelated but I don't think they're giving Stamper burst again in the next game.

 

[ThestralZ]

also, why splash wall nerf ?

Splash walls annoy me at a personal level for whatever reason

 

[chaotik0]

Yeah, I get that the dominance Machine had over other aoe midline options was INSANE and really limited weapon diversity but that was an issue with kit design, not because Machine as a main weapon was drastically better than everything else. A weapon like Pencil is at the top because of how the main weapon is able to paint, provide good chip damage, and quickly get its support special to enable its team better than any other weapon while also staying completely safe. It doesn't even need Sprinkler for the playstyle it goes for and if it didn't have Cooler it would still be farming for another special.

Machine is dependent on having a good kit that helps it play its role.
The only times it got any serious attention before Splatoon 3 was when it had Stingray and then Fizzy. Even then, Machine wasn't the weapon people would choose for Stingray and kMachine was stuck with Splashdown. That's why I think the weapon didn't need to get hit so hard, it's been around since Splatoon 1 and the only time it's been a problem is when every other midline weapon around it was weaker and the map design was at its worst. That linear, hallway design for the early Splatoon 3 maps made the weapon even stronger so I don't agree with the idea of nerfing the main weapon because of the devs own mistakes when designing kits and maps.

I also just believe that weapons shouldn't be held back just because they're top tier. I'm glad that Splash survived Crab meta even if I think they were too easy on it and I don't like how harshly they've nerfed Stamper. Stamper is a much better main weapon than Machine but it's such a sick weapon and deserves to be good.

There's A LOT more I could say about this but like I said earlier, I should probably make a separate thread for this whole topic. Last thing though, the fire rate nerf didn't kill the weapon but did hurt it in making it less fun to play. My enjoyment of Splatoon 3 is negatively impacted because my main weapon just feels worse.
Worse movement, worse dps, worse paint, and the LDE nerfs hurt it's already poor ink efficiency. It's especially a problem on Machine Neo that doesn't have a bomb to poke with so you really feel that feel that fire rate nerf.
Not to say I don't enjoy playing it still, I clearly do from how much I talk about it lol, but I can see all these nerfs absolutely killing Machine in a future Splatoon game where it has a weaker kit plus any indirect nerfs from the nature of just being a different game.



Slightly unrelated but I don't think they're giving Stamper burst again in the next game.

yeah you are right, especially with this

it's been around since Splatoon 1 and the only time it's been a problem is when every other midline weapon around it was weaker and the map design was at its worst. That linear, hallway design for the early Splatoon 3 maps made the weapon even stronger so I don't agree with the idea of nerfing the main weapon because of the devs own mistakes when designing kits and maps.

it definitely isn’t fair, but that’s all they could do unless they wanted to change the entire kit system and revamp all the maps. i hope they still do that. that really sucks though. i also don’t see them reverting it until they do the thing where they only focus on balance patches which they been doing for the past two games
also i didnt know it was in splatoon 1 i actually thought it was made in splatoon 2

Slightly unrelated but I don't think they're giving Stamper burst again in the next game.

yeah no they are not doing that at all. im hoping for line marker because stamper is one of the few weapons that can still be good with it, and i can actually hit the shots

i feel like we talked about this enough to almost call it a thread derailing so maybe this is where i stop

 

[isaac4]

i feel like we talked about this enough to almost call it a thread derailing so maybe this is where i stop

Definitely true, so I'll get back the main point of the thread.


I'm confident that the devs are going to do something to Zooka next patch.
I don't know if it'll be enough but they clearly know that Shot and Pencil are at the top of the game right now.
I don't see any reason why they would just leave Zooka the way it is for the rest of the games update cycle.

 

[Umbreonfan]

Yeah I agree that machine was over nerfed. It's going to be absolutely awful in Splatoon 4. The only thing carrying it is it's one of the few weapons that actually has a kit.

It was VERY harsh
I don't think most people understand how bad the fire rate nerf ends up hurting almost every aspect of the weapon while also making it feel worse to play, this is on top of previous nerfs and the LDE nerf that came later which also hurt Machine (LDE needed to get nerfed though).
I also don't even agree with their reasoning for it but I should probably make a whole thread to talk about this lol.

Also, the idea of bolding and underling sections to make it easier to read through was smart.