Why Competitive Splatoon should use all Game Modes instead of one

[AnchorTea]

As far as I concerned it is not laziness, it is avoiding unnecessary work. Every one of these game modes are complex enough to have a meta worthy of competitive play. That doesnt mean they all should.

My third reason is one of the main reasons why this shouldn't happen.

. You talk about working harder when you have done nothing in the last week to support the team. The captain is the one who truly takes the brunt for it. You are living in lala land right now and you think everything can happen if you wave a magic wand in the air and say "there's no place like home." You have not a clue how a competitive community works or how a captain works, so stop pretending you do.

Now you're pointing fingers at me.

 

[toadster101]

the point isn't that some modes are not competitive, it's that not all modes are as competitive as they ought to be.

fact is, turf is decided in the last 20-30 seconds and there's nothing that organised competition will change about that; the imperious lounge has already run "competitive" turf rooms where everyone generally tries to play well, and no matter what the teams are, triple or quad kills at the end of a match seal it. I've sandbagged these rooms to build up high scores (constantly inking the same turf), then pushed out with inkzooka for a triple at 0:25 and won after being spawn locked for two and a half minutes.

now, the other team could do the same thing, but if a three-minute gametype is decided by who shoots their first inkzooka shot the best at 0:25 on the clock every single map, that is just not a gametype that fits in competitive play.

turf will never be suitable for competition, even if technically it allows for competitive play. the first 2:30 is essentially a formality, and the last 20 seconds determine the entire match, with only a tenuous connection to how the rest of the game was going. the better team can easily lose because of one lucky inkzooka shot, splat bomb, etc.

I fail to see how Turf War isn't competitive just because you can lose the match if your entire team gets cleared out within the last 20 seconds. That's why you don't let yourself die. You spend the first 2.5 minutes spreading ink, then you spend the last 30 seconds staying alive and protecting your turf. No matter where the Inkzooka comes from, it is never, truly random. You can downplay any mode if you judge it based solely on hypothetical outcomes. Splatzones isn't competitive because if your team gets cleared out twice you're almost done with the game. Tower Control isn't competitive because if you wipe out the entire opposing team at the start, the game is over. Those are gross simplifications of reality, but that's basically what you are doing here. The game has more depth than you give it credit for.

"Everybody just casually spreads ink for 2.5 minutes then culminates in the center for a grand showdown. My clan and I have personally tested Turf War, therefore what we say is law."

No, that's not what happens. The better team will usually have a good 70% of the map taken over, which is hard to reverse if you're playing against competent players. A lone Inkzooka or laggy Roller won't be enough to turn the tides of the battle unless you're playing one of those dumb teams that insists on staying out in the open because they're greedy for more points. Controlling territory is an important aspect of all three modes. But in Turf War, people care more about scoring points than protecting the base, so some of the more strategic elements are lost in translation. Turf War gives you an opportunity to make a comeback, but the other modes don't. Is it possible to regain control of the map within the last 30 seconds? Yes. Is it easy? No. Does it happen often? No. It's highly situational. Maybe not in your rooms, but your personal experiences don't determine the competitive viability of certain modes. All three modes are at least somewhat competitive, but Nintendo is currently promoting Turf War is "the" mode for competition, which is why Splatfest is Turf War only. I won't be surprised if they make friend rooms Turf War only, which would be highly disappointing, but also unsurprising given Nintendo's track record when it comes to online play. Set your expectations accordingly.

 

[[EJ]_Locke]

My third reason is one of the main reasons why this shouldn't happen.


Now you're pointing fingers at me.

You dont have a clue how it works that isnt pointing fingers, that is fact.

 

[Kaliafornia]

Alright, proper grammar, here we go.


While this line of thought is fine (and, as you say, this is devil's advocate), the problem is not that a triple kill wins the match, it's that a triple kill with about 25 seconds remaining wins the match. Since that triple kill has no dependence on the rest of the game--all you need to do is stay alive for long enough to get a zooka, or land a lucky splat bomb, or something like that--this turns the rest of the match into a formality. The fact that the end result of a triple kill at 0:25 is identical no matter if you had been spawn camped until that point or if you had been holding at 70-25 is a crippling problem.

Similarly, Zones has two things to prevent "fluke" victories: the timer itself, and the penalty time. For the first point, the winning team needs to run through 100 points (or have the fewest remaining points at the end) in order to win, but if neither of these conditions are met, then the actual score does not matter; 100-0 and 1-0 are both victories by knockout, and 100-99, 100-1, and 50-40 are all victories by time (just like how 44.1 vs 44.0 is an identical result to 95 vs 2 in turf). The key difference is that the eventual winners could choose to run the time down so that they can all build special and have an unbeatable quad special combination that takes the mid point, thus securing penalty time (to the tune of three quarters of whatever score the opponents just got) that allows them to have a second attempt if the other team has a "fluke" of their own and retakes the point, but in Turf, you're forced to make a move at the 25-30 second mark in order to have enough time to push out and take over the map or choke the map out and make such a comeback impossible (depending on which side of the spawn camp you're on).

Furthermore, consider that defending on some maps is so much easier than pushing (see Arowana, Saltspray, Mackerel once you get set up) that being able to secure a point for an extended period of time is not necessarily indicative of superiority, only a "fluke" on the first engagement (maybe they have a 96 user, for example, whose gun decided to shoot straight for fifteen seconds). If the losing team is the superior team, they will get about four good pushes in before the game ends. That's four opportunities for them to outplay the other team; maybe they luck out and it takes one, or maybe it takes all four and it gets down to single-digit points for the other team, but they then get the same advantages that the inferior team had, and can almost certainly win the game.

In this sense, "flukes" have a chance to balance out. There are five whole minutes for one team to emerge victorious, and if neither of them do, then they're evidently matched closely enough that a deciding factor needs to break the tie. A single "fluke" at the end of a Turf match wins. No counterplay, no preparation, nothing to do except hope to hell the other team all decides to ink their feet while they have complete map control.

I think that 3x kill/ last 25 seconds all depends on whether it was a close match or not. If you were spawn camping Wally (an open map) most of the game and 3xkill happened with 25 seconds on the clock then by that time your team should have it locked down by then enough not to have completely lost when the other team makes the final push with 25 seconds left even though pushing is easy on Wally. This happened to my teams a lot during splatfest. We would have the entire map sans right around their base covered and they would finally manage to take out 3 or all of us. But since they had no one to super jump to they are basically inking as they go while we swim right to them in all of our ink and cut them off before they make any real progress although they do have a good chunk of 20-30% back.

I agree the penalty in Zones balances flukes more however I think unless there was 45 seconds or more and their team managed to completely wipe out your team in that time repeatedly in TW there is no reason why you should lose since you had already covered all of the map thoroughly and can get back to them faster than they can ink. Even in the harder to push maps if your team is the superior team and was dominating then the other team is going to need more time and a lot more luck to pull through. This is completely different if you had to carry your team and it turns more into a suppression of 1 player versus 3 others. But an overall superior team should only have to carry 1 teammate and would not be overtaken.

What I was getting at was in TW or SZ if you are in a fairly evenly matched game the last 25 seconds for that final push count a lot more than if one team completely dominated the other all game and you have to push, in the last seconds or in OT for the comeback. Overall flukes and variables are much more likely in TW since you always have to run out the game clock, but if your team overall is dominating the entire match you shouldn't lose.

(Also I use .96 gal in TC and rarely miss even in A rooms, it helps if you lower sensitivity and use gyro).

(Also I'm still Anti-TW being competitive but not really for this particular reason).

 

[AnchorTea]

You dont have a clue how it works that isnt pointing fingers, that is fact.

Well what "Team" are you referring to? Because it sounds like you said that just to sound like douche.

 

[[EJ]_Locke]

I am referring to any team that consists of people who want to play Splatoon competitively,

 

[AnchorTea]

I am referring to any team that consists of people who want to play Splatoon competitively,

This is a bit off-subject, but you do realize there are teams that use all members to support the Group's "Game Plan" right? I'm pretty sure you ask your members for help discussing formations on what to do on certain maps.

 

[Draayder]

You dont have a clue how it works that isnt pointing fingers, that is fact.

You don't gotta be rude man, and I don't think being captain of a team that hasn't ever competed means anything given that we can't have tourneys or even real scrims yet.

I think turf war has its place in competitive, much like how TF2 runs multiple modes like Highlander despite highlander not being the absolute most competitive. I expect we'll see dedicated tourneys for each mode as well as some that do mixed tourneys where mode AND map rotate between rounds. And I think all of those will be valid and good.

Thankfully if you REALLY love a particular mode there's a good chance there'll be an online tourney that you can compete in, so even people in the middle of nowhere who can't travel to the nearest tower control our rainmaker or w/e tourney can still play their preferred mode.

 

[Kaliafornia]

If we did random spin the bottle to see what game mode we are going to play today then I would personally quit competitive Splatoon. This is honestly ridiculous. As a captain of my team, Ender's Jeesh. It would make my life a living hell, drawing up formation after formation after formation. I have about 10 pages of work done in my formations for splat zones. For half of the maps. If I had to triple the work and memorize every single formation I would shoot myself. Anyways, as I said earlier, we should allow other game modes to have their own metagame, but if we force people to talk about all of them and feature all of them in tournaments then we as a competitive community will collapse. All competitive games have their certain mode they play. COD, CSGO, and BF all have team death match. Smash has 1v1. Pokemon has 6v6 singles. It is simply the way it works.
.

Isn't current competitive like this though? TC and SZ have been rotating every 4 hours practically. Once RM is implemented it likely will too. Until this game is more established and longevity is solidified it will be awhile before Nintendo likely dedicates the resources to separate these into where you have the option of what mode you play. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought in August we would be able to get private rooms and set up teams but I still thought we would be at the mercy of whatever comp mode/maps were in rotation.

I agree we don't need a million different competitive modes but it kind of seems like Nintendo is trying to do that currently.

Tournaments should be strictly one mode only and I think they will continue to be (like Splatfest was strictly TW). However if "team rank" becomes a thing then the constant rotation will definitely effect that and you would have to know formation after formation.

 

[River09]

You dont have a clue how it works that isnt pointing fingers, that is fact.

Does it matter what the term is? Your still being disrespectful and not liking what he/she said does not justify that. I don't want this to become a separate discussion or anything but please don't resort to calling people words that are degrading. It only makes you look condescending.

I think that 3x kill/ last 25 seconds all depends on whether it was a close match or not. If you were spawn camping Wally (an open map) most of the game and 3xkill happened with 25 seconds on the clock then by that time your team should have it locked down by then enough not to have completely lost when the other team makes the final push with 25 seconds left even though pushing is easy on Wally. This happened to my teams a lot during splatfest. We would have the entire map sans right around their base covered and they would finally manage to take out 3 or all of us. But since they had no one to super jump to they are basically inking as they go while we swim right to them in all of our ink and cut them off before they make any real progress although they do have a good chunk of 20-30% back.

I agree the penalty in Zones balances flukes more however I think unless there was 45 seconds or more and their team managed to completely wipe out your team in that time repeatedly in TW there is no reason why you should lose since you had already covered all of the map thoroughly and can get back to them faster than they can ink. Even in the harder to push maps if your team is the superior team and was dominating then the other team is going to need more time and a lot more luck to pull through. This is completely different if you had to carry your team and it turns more into a suppression of 1 player versus 3 others. But an overall superior team should only have to carry 1 teammate and would not be overtaken.

What I was getting at was in TW or SZ if you are in a fairly evenly matched game the last 25 seconds for that final push count a lot more than if one team completely dominated the other all game and you have to push, in the last seconds or in OT for the comeback. Overall flukes and variables are much more likely in TW since you always have to run out the game clock, but if your team overall is dominating the entire match you shouldn't lose.

(Also I use .96 gal in TC and rarely miss even in A rooms, it helps if you lower sensitivity and use gyro).

(Also I'm still Anti-TW being competitive but not really for this particular reason).

Isn't that the point here? If you're winning by a landslide and the opposing team gets a fluke shot then the battle is already over before they can push forward. That is true. But if one team is down by 70% or so then its an indication of one team simply being a lot better skill wise. In a match with 2 teams roughly the same in skill the one who can suddenly takes the majority of the opposing team out from the last 30 seconds they have pretty much won. SZ and TC have a buffer so that its not instantly over and the better team will most likely come out on top. Turf Wars don't.

 

[Kaliafornia]

Does it matter what the term is? Your still being disrespectful and not liking what he/she said does not justify that. I don't want this to become a separate discussion or anything but please don't resort to calling people words that are degrading. It only makes you look condescending.

There is other squad related beef here lol.

Isn't that the point here? If you're winning by a landslide and the opposing team gets a fluke shot then the battle is already over before they can push forward. That is true. But if one team is down by 70% or so then its an indication of one team simply being a lot better skill wise. In a match with 2 teams roughly the same in skill the one who can suddenly takes the majority of the opposing team out from the last 30 seconds they have pretty much won. SZ and TC have a buffer so that its not instantly over and the better team will most likely come out on top. Turf Wars don't.

That's why I said a close matches. 70% is still close as you can easily take back 20-30% in 25 seconds in TW (like I mentioned), especially with aerosprayers/splattershots and other TW friendly weapons. In those cases it's likely because the person who carried got splatted/pushed back. Your team as a whole wasn't the superior team if one person is carrying. Many times all it takes its to knock the power player out of position or splat them, quickly dispatch the others, and now you have a 3 vs 1 or 4 v 1 situation. TC and especially SZ have a buffer but its a lot harder for that one power player to take back everything if their team needs to be carried. In SZ I have went 19/4 and we lost with us at 6 and the other team coming from 50 with penalty because the other team made it their mission to take me out once our team lost positioning. TC is the most balanced honestly towards the superior overall team because I rarely see a team win where their worst person or bottom 1-2 players has a worst K/D ratio than the bottom 1-2 players on the losing team,

 

[AnchorTea]

Does it matter what the term is? Your still being disrespectful and not liking what he/she said does not justify that. I don't want this to become a separate discussion or anything but please don't resort to calling people words that are degrading. It only makes you look condescending.


Isn't that the point here? If you're winning by a landslide and the opposing team gets a fluke shot then the battle is already over before they can push forward. That is true. But if one team is down by 70% or so then its an indication of one team simply being a lot better skill wise. In a match with 2 teams roughly the same in skill the one who can suddenly takes the majority of the opposing team out from the last 30 seconds they have pretty much won. SZ and TC have a buffer so that its not instantly over and the better team will most likely come out on top. Turf Wars don't.

Oh crap I just realized I forgot to set my profiles gender. Thanks for reminding me.

Anyway, one team has to find some sort of advantage to prevent that happening, just because TW is semi-dependent, it doesn't mean teamwork can't exist.

 

[Captain Norris]

Everything but Turf War has the ability to and should be played competitively. However, if the meta and community decide that only a single mode should be used, then I hope that decision is made after many months of consideration.
Additionally, a vast majority of the community must agree on something.If there is a single disagreement, that could lead to a split community and cause Splatoon's competitive ability to dissolve. We, as a community, must work together. If a decision is made, go with it. Be happy that there is a competitive scene at all.

 

[Hope]

I completely agree with flc, I was in those rooms and someone getting lucky and taking out 3 people then winning after your team had been spawn camping for 2 minutes and 30 seconds is not competitive. In any other game mode if you are winning hard for 2 minutes and 30 seconds you will have gotten a knockout victory or gotten the tower to their base.

 

[Power]

I know most of you all know this, but we just do not know for certain whether or not turf war can actually be competive. The big barrier stopping it at the moment imo, is the last 30 seconds victory thing. This type of speculation and discussion is nice, I just hope we avoid getting attached to ideas too early and to keep an open mind. (Avoiding insulting each other also)

The best we can do right now is to actually play turf wars (in what is currently) friends list rooms or just wait for matchmaking. What sounds good on paper may not actually hold true. Similar to what flc did, we can actually see what is a common situation in turf wars and increase our knowledge on the mode. A larger sample size may be needed to confirm his findings ( although I still agree with them) Once again, this may all change when we get matchmaking.

 

[Kaliafornia]

I completely agree with flc, I was in those rooms and someone getting lucky and taking out 3 people then winning after your team had been spawn camping for 2 minutes and 30 seconds is not competitive. In any other game mode if you are winning hard for 2 minutes and 30 seconds you will have gotten a knockout victory or gotten the tower to their base.

You shouldn't be spawn camping unless 85-90% of the map is in your color though or unless 3 people can hold them while another stays back mid-map and fills in any gaps and is there for a safe SJ in case your team gets splatted. 70% or less and the chance is pretty good that if/when the team finally breaks through and kills 3 or all of you they can make a comeback if you don't have any one to SJ too or immediately take them out again because the map isn't covered colored enough to slow them down. This is less likely if its mid-game versus in the last 25-30 seconds as you could make a comeback and trap them to camp again. But honestly this has rarely/never really happened to me in games because I never get that close to their spawn and let my other team members play that game of chance while I make sure turf wise its all in our color and I am a safe SJ for quick re-suppression and kills of the opposition when thy try to advance.

 

[Deleted Member]

Everything but Turf War has the ability to and should be played competitively.

Wrong

 

[Captain Norris]

Wrong

Ok fine. there is some competitive play on it. but, out of all of them, TW is more luck based. There is not a single, complete focus. All the other modes have what they need to be competitive. The Focus. Take over this area. Keep hold of a tower. Get that "flag" to the zone. Turf War? Spread Ink everywhere, hoping that the opponents are spreading as much.
Turf War also leaves many weapons that are nearly not viable compared to the other modes.

But as I said: The community must make the final decisions. If the meta calls for Turf War solely? Fine, we will play turf War. But once the decision has been made, we cannot risk the community splitting.

On a sidenote, please explain why one is "wrong" next time. :)

 

[AnchorTea]

Ok fine. there is some competitive play on it. but, out of all of them, TW is more luck based. There is not a single, complete focus. All the other modes have what they need to be competitive. The Focus. Take over this area. Keep hold of a tower. Get that "flag" to the zone. Turf War? Spread Ink everywhere, hoping that the opponents are spreading as much.
Turf War also leaves many weapons that are nearly not viable compared to the other modes.

But as I said: The community must make the final decisions. If the meta calls for Turf War solely? Fine, we will play turf War. But once the decision has been made, we cannot risk the community splitting.

On a sidenote, please explain why one is "wrong" next time. :)

The point of this thread is that ALL of the Game Modes should be used btw.

 

[EpicB13]

@AnchorTea
I don't care if the community decides on turf war being the standard mode in tournaments. I'm just saying we need ONE definitive mode. If we use every mode in tournaments the community will become segregated. If we have one mode, everyone will join together and have the opportunity to attend the same tournaments as one another. Imagine some one wanted to enter a tournament using all 4 modes (TW, Zones, TC, and RM). If their main weapon can only be put to good use in one mode, they might have to main up to 4 DIFFERENT WEAPONS. That's nuts. Why not allow competitive players to focus on one mode and one main weapon?