Ranked mode too punishing?

SneakyShark

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Does anyone think ranked mode is too punishing? Like suppose you gain ten points by winning a match and lose ten points when you lose the next match, you basically lost a match worth of progress. Shouldn't it be that when you lose a match you only lose half the points that you would have got if you won the match? That way you still have a chance to gain back points plus a little more even if you won a match only to lose the next. What do you guys think?
 

InkyBlinky

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Ranked mode is a bit punishing, especially for a heavily team-based game. If you get a team full of people who have never played ranked before, but you're pretty good, clearly you'll suffer a loss. What I can't wrap my head around, though, is how the system doles out points. Are there criteria? Why do I lose eight points in one round, and twelve in another? When I win, why aren't I always gaining ten points? This is coming from my newby account in B+ at the moment, but it's true of other ranks.

All in all, I don't necessarily mind how ranked is set up right now. It is definitely punishing, but not quite unforgiving. It is meant to separate the fiercely competitive meta from the competitive, and semicompetitive. I like that; in order to play with great players, you too, must become great. That and a bit of luck will help you on your way to the top, and if you suffer a long losing streak for any reason, it only shows where improvements can be made. And in playing the maps over and over, you learn them inside and out.

Trying to get to S+99 with randoms is tough, though, haha.
 

SneakyShark

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Yeah with the points that you gain/lose was just an example. I think when you are teamed up with lower rank players you lose more points and gain less points. When teamed up with higher rank you gain more/lose less points. Also I think when you are closer to a new rank you gain less points. I got to S rank recently and I tried to stay in it but dropped out. Now I am in A+ Rank which I have been a "healthy" area 50/60 pts for a while but now I'm close to A rank which I don't wanna be in :/
 

Zolda

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Ranked mode is a bit punishing, especially for a heavily team-based game. If you get a team full of people who have never played ranked before, but you're pretty good, clearly you'll suffer a loss. What I can't wrap my head around, though, is how the system doles out points. Are there criteria? Why do I lose eight points in one round, and twelve in another? When I win, why aren't I always gaining ten points? This is coming from my newby account in B+ at the moment, but it's true of other ranks.
The point distribution is partially determined by the average ranks of each team. So for example, since you're B+, let's say you were placed on a team with all B+ players and fought a team of all A players and lost. You would lose fewer points in this match since the A team was obviously favored to win since they're two ranks above. On the other hand, if you won that match, you'd get more points than normal since you beat a team that is ranked above you, and they would in turn lose more points than usual since they lost to a lower ranked team.

So basically it takes into account the overall rank distribution of each team. It punishes you less if you lose to a higher rank team and rewards you more for beating them, and punishes you more if you lose to a lower rank team and rewards you less for beating them.
 

Spiderface

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I think it's good that you win as many points as you lose. It makes ranking up a real achievement.

It is frustrating when you get put on a team that just doesn't work, you play really well but the rest of your team doesn't and you lose. And it's embarrassing when you play really badly, the rest of the team plays amazingly and you win. Maybe I'd support a concession of about 2 points in that case. But it doesn't happen often.

It does piss me off when teams are mismatched though. I was stuck in A- for about a month and I kept getting S players in my lobby. That was not cool. I don't mind having players one or even two ranks above me, but I think an A- vs an S is just unfair.
 

Airi

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The way Splatoon's ranking system works is ridiculous and it needs to be fixed. The system is hardly fair to players with the current way it works. In all honesty, Splatoon's ranking system seems more focused on punishing players for a loss rather than rewarding them for a win.

When I'm doing Ranked, I'm often losing more points than I gain back. On average, I'll earn 8 to 10 points. Sometimes, if I'm unlucky and get put in a B+ lobby, I will only gain 5 points for a win. However, when I lose, I always seem to lose 10 to 15 points per match. It's extremely rare that the game will take away just 8 points from me. Last night was the height of frustration for me. I was close to ranking up to A again when I was put into B+ lobbies. I only received 5 points per match. Thankfully, I helped my team win both matches needed to rank up. The frustration comes from knowing I probably would have lost 12 points when I knew I was only going to gain 5. That's an incredible difference right there.

I'm not even going to touch how unfair the system is when it comes to disconnections. They only account for DCs before the match. If a teammate disconnects after the start, you still lose the same amount of points and that's hardly fair when you're outnumbered.

Nintendo needs to consider changes to the system. They need to make the points a bit more fair or they need to work on keeping the ranks separated a lot more. I wouldn't say that the system is too punishing. It's just that the system is largely very unfair to players.
 

Spiderface

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I'm not even going to touch how unfair the system is when it comes to disconnections. They only account for DCs before the match. If a teammate disconnects after the start, you still lose the same amount of points and that's hardly fair when you're outnumbered.
OHHHH yeah, I said that I think the ranking system is fine but forgot about disconnects. They are SO unfair. It's bad enough having t play the game one squid down, let alone know you're going to be brutally punished for it in points.
 

Flareth

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I can attest to a case where, despite being on a supposedly "unfavored" team (all Bs vs. some Bs and a B+, I think it was), I still lost 12 points.

I can also attest to a case where both teams had a variety of ranks (like, an A & A- with a few Bs, something like that, I don't fully recall). Evidently the system couldn't figure out which team was to be favored, and so I only lost 5 points.

I for one hate the fact that they expect people to perform a certain way. Though it's mostly just a lot of salt over how my higher-ranked teammates can suck so much. It's why I think the rank-mixing shouldn't be allowed.
 

Ryuji

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Play in S+ matches then you have to right to complain about ranked being too punishing. You only get +4 for winning, and +3 after S+40, and even less after S+80. But if you lose, you get -6 or -7 depending on the rank of the other players. That basically means you have to win two matches to make up for one loss.
 

jsilva

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I can attest to a case where, despite being on a supposedly "unfavored" team (all Bs vs. some Bs and a B+, I think it was), I still lost 12 points.

I can also attest to a case where both teams had a variety of ranks (like, an A & A- with a few Bs, something like that, I don't fully recall). Evidently the system couldn't figure out which team was to be favored, and so I only lost 5 points.

I for one hate the fact that they expect people to perform a certain way. Though it's mostly just a lot of salt over how my higher-ranked teammates can suck so much. It's why I think the rank-mixing shouldn't be allowed.
I've seen point awards/losses not reflect the rank difference between teams many times. And I played a game once where there was a disconnection on my team before the game started and we still won, but didn't get any extra points. And I've also lost both 1 and 8 points being down a team member.

Rank difference does affect point awards/losses, but obviously there are other factors used. It's my feeling that matching and points are based on an agenda rather than a completely random situation.

I like that it's not easy to go up in ranked. I enjoy a challenge when it's fair, although my personal feeling is that ranked is more often not completely fair (in either direction). That's where I see it as punishing.
 

BlackZero

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I think players have more to do with Ranked than the point system. Playing randoms is a crapshoot. Maybe you'll get a good team, maybe you'll get a bunch of morons. I don't think people would get so upset about losing points if they could get consistently good matches. Losing points after a ****ty match just makes it that much worse.
 

Pareto

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A ranked format that favors going up the ranks would mimic something like Mario Kart's VR ranking system, where consistent effort (and not so much winning) could net a higher rank. What's different between Mario Kart and Splatoon however, is the fact that Splatoon is heavily team based, which means that your team's performance heavily matters, and therefore requires every player to be around the same skill level (ignoring the fact that matchmaking can be pretty lousy at times). If you had a ranking system that favored effort over skill, then you would just be mixing more unskilled players in higher ranks and that no doubt, will give everyone a better reason to complain that they're getting "useless teammates" all of the time.

It is important to note that your rank is a measure of the approximate skill bracket that you should be playing and improving on and not just a letter that you're judging yourself on. Each rank has some degree of varying difficulty and the system's way of decreasing points as you get closer to the next rank is meant to be a soft measure of being a bit more sure your wins aren't dependent on sheer probability. If you are truly a competent player who deserves to be in the next rank, you will make it there eventually. If not, then you're either in the right rank to improve in or maybe you're not in the right bracket at all. The lines between each rank are already unclear in terms of skill as it is, so by no means, should they become any worse just to cater to those who look more at their rank as a personal achievement, as opposed to a skill bracket that will give them (somewhat) evenly-matched opponents.
 

DekuKitty

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I do have to agree ranked seems to favor punishing your losses instead of rewarding your wins. I can see exactly why its frustrating, but its a bit too frusturating st times. I have a few stress disorders, so I can't even play ranked too often due to how tense and stressful it is. I may be a wimp for mainly playing turf, but I have no choice!
 

Award

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Rank difference does affect point awards/losses, but obviously there are other factors used. It's my feeling that matching and points are based on an agenda rather than a completely random situation.
Reading this thread reminded me of one important fact I hadn't considered in the other thread. The Splatoon player base/WiiU install base. I believe that's where the agenda is really coming from. The system is trying to create the image of being fair and competitive. But its real agenda is not being fair and competitive, it's load balancing the limited player base across all lobby types so it remains functionally populated. And that is the only agenda that matters to the system to keep the game running. If it's creating unfair pairings, I'm guessing it's intentionally trying to move people down in ranks, not for competitive purposes, but for lobby population distribution purposes. Meaning our ranks really aren't our ranks reflecting our real skill but a server assignment based on distribution need, given to us via rigged matches by handing us easy wins or easy losses to move us to the lobby the system needs us to be in. A clever disguise and fun "competition" to mask the fact that this is Splatoon, not COD or Halo, and there aren't (or at least previously weren't) enough players to go around to give them real skill brackets.

We CAN defy the odds. You can also defy the stacked house odds at the blackjack table. You can sink the basketball into the ever so slightly oval hoop a the carnival too. it's just that it won't happen often. Come to think of it, that's probably the situation in a nutshell. Too many modes, not enough players (or at least not before Christmas. The rollout of ranked and modes really revolved around distributing the player base as well now that I think about it.

I forgot about the mixing of different ranks in a lobby and how that indicates there are not sufficient players in any one rank to actually make a bracket. If there were enough C+'s for example they wouldn't need to mix B- and B players in a C lobby, or S players in an A- lobby. There's just not enough players in a given rank bracket at any time to make a real rank bracket. It can't be fixed without selling more copies if so. That makes me sad. It means the real problem with ranked is that it's actually an illusion to begin with. :( Though it also gives me hope that now that there's more players they may issue a fix they were intending all along once the player base is higher.

I think players have more to do with Ranked than the point system. Playing randoms is a crapshoot. Maybe you'll get a good team, maybe you'll get a bunch of morons. I don't think people would get so upset about losing points if they could get consistently good matches. Losing points after a ****ty match just makes it that much worse.
Well if the point system worked properly, you wouldn't be getting bad teams and bad matches. Everyone would be close in skill within a bracket.

A ranked format that favors going up the ranks would mimic something like Mario Kart's VR ranking system, where consistent effort (and not so much winning) could net a higher rank. What's different between Mario Kart and Splatoon however, is the fact that Splatoon is heavily team based, which means that your team's performance heavily matters, and therefore requires every player to be around the same skill level (ignoring the fact that matchmaking can be pretty lousy at times). If you had a ranking system that favored effort over skill, then you would just be mixing more unskilled players in higher ranks and that no doubt, will give everyone a better reason to complain that they're getting "useless teammates" all of the time.

It is important to note that your rank is a measure of the approximate skill bracket that you should be playing and improving on and not just a letter that you're judging yourself on. Each rank has some degree of varying difficulty and the system's way of decreasing points as you get closer to the next rank is meant to be a soft measure of being a bit more sure your wins aren't dependent on sheer probability. If you are truly a competent player who deserves to be in the next rank, you will make it there eventually. If not, then you're either in the right rank to improve in or maybe you're not in the right bracket at all. The lines between each rank are already unclear in terms of skill as it is, so by no means, should they become any worse just to cater to those who look more at their rank as a personal achievement, as opposed to a skill bracket that will give them (somewhat) evenly-matched opponents.
I think the trouble is your second paragraph describes the way it SHOULD work. The complaints are from people that have figured out that's not how it actually works with the current system. If it really worked that way there would be little to complain about. The first paragraph highlights exactly why people are complaining. Specifically, it's a team game where your team's performance matters, but many of us get paired in very unevenly matched battles with very unmatched skill levels, as though ranks aren't skill brackets at all, but are, indeed, just a letter of achievement. Many ranked battles are every bit as unbalanced as Turf War, which seems to defy the very point of ranked.

I don't disagree with you on an effort based rather than skill based system at all though. it's just that what we have now is more effort/RNG based than skill based. Rolling on random teams to get you carried has already contaminated higher ranks, and the good players that they then force down in ranks based on team losses contaminates the lower and mid ranks so you use luck to grind until you're paired on a good enough team to advance.

I will say that when you do get paired with a team similar to your own skill ranked is amazing fun. The problem is that happens one out of every 15 pairings.

I do have to agree ranked seems to favor punishing your losses instead of rewarding your wins. I can see exactly why its frustrating, but its a bit too frusturating st times. I have a few stress disorders, so I can't even play ranked too often due to how tense and stressful it is. I may be a wimp for mainly playing turf, but I have no choice!
You're not a wimp, TW is honestly just more fun right now. You might get stomped due to a badly mismatched matched team, just like in ranked, but they don't punish you for it, you just go onto another round with a new team. That shouldn't be able to happen in ranked by definition, but it does.
 

Flareth

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Eh, I get stomped in Turf Wars as well. The only reason I stopped playing Ranked so often was because I thought Turf Wars would have fewer tryhards to dominate me and more noobs/newbs that I could use as target practice.

As of late, however, I've noticed that Turf Wars are getting steadily more... what's the word, intense? So it does me no good either way.

I'm coming to accept the fact that sometimes I'm going to be screwed somehow, and all the good-gitting in the world won't mean a thing if I get paired up with even worse players than myself. In Turf Wars as much as Ranked Battles.
 

Holidaze

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Eh, I get stomped in Turf Wars as well. The only reason I stopped playing Ranked so often was because I thought Turf Wars would have fewer tryhards to dominate me and more noobs/newbs that I could use as target practice.

As of late, however, I've noticed that Turf Wars are getting steadily more... what's the word, intense? So it does me no good either way.

I'm coming to accept the fact that sometimes I'm going to be screwed somehow, and all the good-gitting in the world won't mean a thing if I get paired up with even worse players than myself. In Turf Wars as much as Ranked Battles.
To my knowledge, the only people who "try hard" are those trying new weapons. However, this means you can only improve your game play, you can't magically lose skills from going hella negative. So, I like to think of getting outclassed as trying to beat level 50 amiibos in smash, is it possible? yeh, is there anything I can do to get better? obv.

There is no reason why you can't get better, to the point where you're able to lead a team to victory. It just takes patience, and some god damn tenacity. (Wearing a head item with Tenacity doesn't count.)
 

BlackZero

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Well if the point system worked properly, you wouldn't be getting bad teams and bad matches. Everyone would be close in skill within a bracket.
I've already posted how the matchmaking works in another thread, but here's a tl;dr. "Skill" is measured by kill count, death count, and coverage points. You're matched based on how your stats in these three areas measure up to others. If you have high kills, you're going to get matched with other high-kill players and so on. So, you're getting matched with players who are just as "skilled" as you in these respective areas. If you don't like the matches you get, figure out what you want more of in your matches and focus on increasing that stat.

Rank points are probably the rough equivalent to the K factor in the Elon system: a multiple derived from your skill and the skill of your opponents that determines how much you go up or down in your respective "tier." It doesn't determine how good your opponents are, rather how fast you climb the ranks.
 

Kayura05

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It can be punishing but I find that more comes from how the game decides to take points away. If you have more high ranking members on then you lose more points, this can prove frustrating since rank isn't always a hard indicator of skill. Despite that I rarely find myself too concerned as I just weigh the risks of whether or not a loss of points is worth it. When I make any sort of gain I usually cut my losses, the system works just enough to make ranking up a effort.
 

Award

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I've already posted how the matchmaking works in another thread, but here's a tl;dr. "Skill" is measured by kill count, death count, and coverage points. You're matched based on how your stats in these three areas measure up to others. If you have high kills, you're going to get matched with other high-kill players and so on. So, you're getting matched with players who are just as "skilled" as you in these respective areas. If you don't like the matches you get, figure out what you want more of in your matches and focus on increasing that stat.

Rank points are probably the rough equivalent to the K factor in the Elon system: a multiple derived from your skill and the skill of your opponents that determines how much you go up or down in your respective "tier." It doesn't determine how good your opponents are, rather how fast you climb the ranks.

Do you have a link to the longer winded discussion of how matchmaking works and/or how you determined it? There's a few people that have been debating about it and trying to figure out how it works (and what seems to be broken about it) that would probably like to be cued into it (off the top of my head, @97Stephen , @Zombie Aladdin , @Holidaze , @jsilva , ) That sounds like what we were thinking. But does it apply to only who you get matched WITH or also against? The vastly mismatched teams still don't seem to be related to just that. If it's that deliberate, then it's also deliberately matching teams it knows are very good with teams it knows are not. Or highly aggressive teams against teams that are less aggressive, not randomly but by design. Which effectively rigs the match as theorized above.

And how does TW mix with ranked with that system? And weapon mix (eliters certainly won't have comparable stats to tentateks for example.)

Edit: Found it.
http://squidboards.com/threads/things-ive-learned-from-my-alt-account.20316/#post-141693
 
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BlackZero

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Do you have a link to the longer winded discussion of how matchmaking works and/or how you determined it? There's a few people that have been debating about it and trying to figure out how it works (and what seems to be broken about it) that would probably like to be cued into it (off the top of my head, @97Stephen , @Zombie Aladdin , @Holidaze , @jsilva , ) That sounds like what we were thinking.
Sauce and sauce of sauce

The first is a translated summary of the second.

As for how matchmaking in general works, here is an overview of how Microsoft's TrueSkill algorithm works. Warning: it is very long and Math heavy. Still, it's an interesting read if you really want to get an idea of how matchmaking works.

Here's a layman's summary. The game calculates your skill based on certain variables (k/d, w/l, shot accuracy, how many times you defuse the bomb vs let someone else do it, etc). It then looks at whether you win or lose consistently, or whether you bounce between wins and losses to establish a standard deviation (how uncertain the game is that you will win regardless of your skill level). It then assigns you both a skill variable (mu) and uncertainty variable (sigma).

The game then calculates a "skill chain" (beta). It takes every member in the lobby and arranges them from best to worst based on their mu. It then calculates how many points it must add to your mu to give you an 80% probability of beating the least skilled player (who has the lowest mu). Low beta values means a more evenly matched game based on player ability because the game has to add less points to gain the 80% probability. A high beta means luck is a bigger factor because the game had to add more points to reach 80%.

The game also calculates "partial play:" the amount of time a player was active during a match. This gives the game an idea of whether someone played for the entire match or just stood there.

It then takes all of this information, plugs them into complex formulas, performs several marginal calculations to get other values to plug into these formulas, and eventually assigns a team performance value to the players grouped together. The game then subtracts these two values to determine the probability of one team beating the other. With that established, it then determines how much a player's rank should increase based on whether the win was expected, slightly unexpected, or very unexpected (an upset win). This is the "K factor" from chess: it determines how much a win or lose impacts a player's rank. An upset will result in a higher K factor, thus a greater change in your rank.

Side Note: I suspect this is why S rank is so punishing. The algorithm may consider any loss by S rank to be unexpected or an upset, thus a heavier loss in points.

Anyway, this K factor also updates a player's mu. An upset win will cause a higher jump or drop in your mu value. These changes become less dramatic the more matches a person plays. Someone just starting out who destroys the competition will have an almost vertical spike in their mu. Assuming Splatoon uses an algorithm like TrueSkill, this can explain why so many experienced players who start alts get grouped with competitive players. Early in the game, this can cause dramatic shifts in the caliber of players you face. Many talked about starting new accounts and only getting to play a few games before getting thrown in with very competitive players. This is probably because the kill or coverage variables in your mu cause it to jump to a specific range where the game considers you S tier in those areas even though you just started playing. Ranked limits the speed you can make this jump with the points system to prevent people from jumping straight to S rank from the get-go, but TW probably doesn't have this "safeguard."

What does all of this mean for Splatoon? In looking at the cited source, it means that your mu is weighted such that kills, deaths, and coverage points result in more drastic changes than other factors (like wins and losses). The game probably flags certain value ranges as "high kill," "high death," and "high coverage." If you're borderline, you may bounce between those value ranges and randomly get matched up with two very different types of players.

This is all hypothetical of course I don't know if Splatoon uses a derivative of the TrueSkill algorithm or uses the more primitive "dueling heuristic" Elon method where it considers two teams as one player vs another and compares their bell curves. With that said, this does fit with my own observations. When I get a good kill streak going, I find myself playing more aggressive teams. When I play passively, I find there are more players who are also passive. Ymmv though.
 
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