Neutrals/Counterpicks/Bans For map selection in tournaments thread

[Hitzel]

yo hitzel is there a specific place that talks about the halo-style tournaments in depth? I'd like to learn more about but tbh i'm too lazy and busy to find a credible website to learn how they work

I just checked MLG's website and unfortunately the guidelines for setting up brackets are no longer there, but I can break it down for you (and there's a Splatoon tournament that I can give as an example).

So in Smash, map and game mode combinations are chosen by players during that match. In Halo, the gametypes to be played are pre-determined by the Tournament Organizers. Players can't choose or ban anything, they have to play what is in rotation.

Take a look at the rules being used for Messfest. Every round of the tournament, 5 games are listed in order. This means that Round 1 of the tournament, Game 1 is Walleye Zones, Game 2 is Urchin Tower, etc. In Round 2, the combos are different, in Round 3 they are also different, etc. These can (and should) be changed up every tournament.

With this kind of setup, players have to be good at EVERYTHING and they cannot simply ban what they don't want to play. It also avoids ban shenanigans like what we saw in IoS Winners.

The only problem with Halo is that it limited the map + gametype combo pool to only 11 because they didn't want the pool to be bigger than the possible number of games in their grand finals. That isn't something that should be done with Splatoon IMO.

So yeah, the more I see how Smash-style tournaments play out in Splatoon, the more I think that a modified Halo-style is better.

 

[GameGalaxy64]

I first want to say that the more time goes on, the more I think that Halo-style map rotations is a better way to do tournaments than Smash-style picks & bans. You just have to make sure the rotations change every tournament and don't stagnate.

Second, if we have to do Smash-style tournaments, the Neutral stages should probably be different for every tournament, maybe even every round.

But, if we HAVE to settle on one good map list, I almost agree with you. The problem is Walleye Warehouse. I know that it's a favorite of Squid Squads and it's not a bad map, but it is a very bottlenecked map with slippery slope and little variety. That just doesn't make for a good game 1.

Take Warehouse away and I more or less agree with your starters. Flounder Heights is looking awesome so far, but it's new so I'll hold off on an opinion.

As for bans, ban nothing. Period. Arowana and Towers carry heavy negative connotations and "soak up" bans that would otherwise be used as strategic bans, so we'll see what happens over time, but then again Halo-style rotations that change every round of every tournament solve that problem (and every other problem, really).

*Edit*

Something to try is a "Stress Test" tournament that forces the use of "problem" maps to see how they handle under pressure, similar to how Pokemon works, before forming opinions. Again though, well-managed Halo-style tournaments don't face this problem.

Inb4 Arowana only tournament.

 

[GameGalaxy64]

Let's say we do adopt a Halo style system. What are the top five most balanced maps for each mode, or at least the most fun to watch and play on?

 

[Poyo]

Let's say we do adopt a Halo style system. What are the top five most balanced maps for each mode, or at least the most fun to watch and play on?

Can you explain how the Halo-style tournament map selection works?

In my opinion, the most balanced maps (for Tower Control and Splat Zones, that is) are Camp Triggerfish, Blackbelly Skatepark, Kelp Dome, Walleye Warehouse, and Urchin Underpass (in no particular order).

 

[Hitzel]

Can you explain how the Halo-style tournament map selection works?

In my opinion, the most balanced maps (for Tower Control and Splat Zones, that is) are Camp Triggerfish, Blackbelly Skatepark, Kelp Dome, Walleye Warehouse, and Urchin Underpass (in no particular order).

See my above post.

In Halo-style settings, there is no reason to pick an arbitrary number of "neutral" stages, but if we're talking about what the best stuff is for a tournament, IMO there are a small few map + gametype combos that we may need to keep an eye on. Over time certain tournaments may opt to make sure no more than one is used in a single round, that they appear with less frequency in rotations, or that they simply aren't used at all.

Splat Zones Problem Maps:
Arowana Mall
Walleye Warehouse
Urchin Underpass
+ others??

These maps are generally bad for Splat Zones because they are very bottlenecked, with very few momentum shifts. More or less, one team gets an early lead and camps until a knockout or timeout, unless the other team pulls something miraculous and does the same thing. It's called slippery slope, and it's generally not the best thing to use for tournaments. Maybe some day we'll have to keep an eye on some other maps, because Splat Zones is a very, very camp-friendly gametype, or maybe the meta will shift and become less campy, but that remains to be seen.

I also want to throw out there that some people seem to think that Port Mackerel is a bad map for Splat Zones because it's a generally low-scoring game and that Spash Walls are "too good". I just want to say that it being low-scoring is not a problem, and that there is ALWAYS something important to be doing on Port SZ. As for Splash Walls being "too good," no. Just no. Almost everything in this game is equally overpowered. Everything is bullshit and you can make everything work. There is already a ton of emergent tech to deal with Splash Walls specifically, as we've seen in Ink or Sink, and basic teamwork has always dealt with them. Even if Splash Walls were a problem in this game, Port would not suddenly be the only problem.

Tower Control Problem Maps:
???

Honestly, Tower Control is probably the most healthy gametype we have as far as how many maps play it well. I personally dislike Moray Towers TC but I have no logical reason to point a finger at it. Tower control generally forces map movement and prevents certain pacing problems from occurring that certain maps may otherwise have.

Rainmaker Problem Maps:
Blackbelly Skatepark???
Saltspray Rig

Let me preface this by saying it's way to early to form opinions on Rainmaker, but these two maps in particular have very, very tiny distances between capture points that let a team that has been dominating all match to suddenly lose at the first slip up. Is that a bad thing? I honestly don't know yet, but it's worth acknowledging the potential problem.

So yeah, in general, slippery slope is a problem in Splat Zones, and we don't know if there are any problem maps in Rainmaker yet.

As for the "Best" maps, Kelp Dome, Blackbelly Skatepark, and Port Mackerel are looking to be the go-to maps of this game, and Dolphin Heights seems to have the potential to join them. They all offer multiple angles of approach and a variety of strategies, they don't bottleneck or get very one-dimensional, and they support all gametypes well (aside from maybe Blackbelly RM).

I know that some people would want me to mention Saltspray here, but I honestly think that the only gametype it actually plays well is Tower Control. Splat Zones is in danger of bottlenecking at any moment, and Rainmaker has the most problems out of any Rainmaker map so far. TC is very interesting though.

So yeah, this is a big wall of text to point fingers at what is actually a small percentage of the game's gametype + map combos, to worry a little bit about Splat Zones, and to say that Skatepark, Dome, Port, and Flounder Heights are well-designed maps.

 

[Aweshucks]

I stand by my opinion that port mackerel is one of the worst splat zones maps.
In fact, I think the only map that has done multiple zones well is black belly. (Though I haven't played flounder yet, and it doesn't look too terrible).

I've also never had a problem with walleye SZ, and still think it's one of the best maps for the mode

 

[Poyo]

I stand by my opinion that port mackerel is one of the worst splat zones maps.
In fact, I think the only map that has done multiple zones well is black belly. (Though I haven't played flounder yet, and it doesn't look too terrible).

I've also never had a problem with walleye SZ, and still think it's one of the best maps for the mode

I played Flounder Heights a bit yesterday, and it's a bit of a strange map. Chargers are mostly useless, and it's probably the best map for the poor blasters, but it's really where rollers shine because of the relatively constricted and winding paths.

 

[Avatar K]

Splat Zones Problem Maps:
Arowana Mall
Walleye Warehouse
Urchin Underpass
+ others??

These maps are generally bad for Splat Zones because they are very bottlenecked, with very few momentum shifts. More or less, one team gets an early lead and camps until a knockout or timeout, unless the other team pulls something miraculous and does the same thing. It's called slippery slope, and it's generally not the best thing to use for tournaments. Maybe some day we'll have to keep an eye on some other maps, because Splat Zones is a very, very camp-friendly gametype, or maybe the meta will shift and become less campy, but that remains to be seen.

In Urchin Underpass is not that easy to bottleneck the enemy team and in Walleye Warehouse you can only bottleneck the enemy team so much without pushing them back near their base. Arowana Mall is very easy to bottleneck in, However.

There is already a ton of emergent tech to deal with Splash Walls specifically, as we've seen in Ink or Sink, and basic teamwork has always dealt with them. Even if Splash Walls were a problem in this game, Port would not suddenly be the only problem.

What anti splash wall strategies were discovered in the Ink or Sink tournament?

 

[Zero Emission]

In Urchin Underpass is not that easy to bottleneck the enemy team and in Walleye Warehouse you can only bottleneck the enemy team so much without pushing them back near their base. Arowana Mall is very easy to bottleneck in, However.


What anti splash wall strategies were discovered in the Ink or Sink tournament?

There's none, you just play around it like you would against something like Inkzooka. The closest counterplay would be to catch them with Bombs should they extend their hitboxes beyond the shield.

 

[flc]

regarding moray: moray isn't an elitre map. people who don't main it probably don't realise just how **** it actually is for elitres.

sure, you can stand on the first storey and snipe people all day (until you get into the inevitable peek-around-the-pole-and-jumpshot-for-the-other-sniper's-head battle against the elitre on the other team), but then your gets on the tower or picks up the rainmaker and suddenly you are completely useless. elitre does nothing on the push, and is in fact so bad at it that the game becomes 3v4. as for zones: sure, you can cap the enemy zone from the fire escape, but you have very few angles to stop the other team from just capping it straight back, and capping the zone from there means you aren't getting shots on people.

in my opinion, there should not be a neutral/counterpick distinction. all maps that are not banned should be open for picks at all stages. this is not smash where every stage is awful and it's only the ones that suck the least that get through. this is a fps.

the only map that is even worth talking about when it comes to bans (outside of rainmaker, which has its own problems) is saltspray zones. saltspray is the most defensively-biased map in zones given that the pushing team has three options for getting in and all of them are covered by a single elitre position plus a little fire support from some non-tentatek weapons. but even then, the game is still so volatile that there is no reason to ban it this early on.

EDIT: arowana mall isn't a bad zones map anymore, stop memeing
EDIT2: kelp dome is almost as defensively biased as saltspray, just that you run jet squelchers instead of chargers because chargers ****ing suck there

 

[Agosta44]

Salt Spray is more defensively bias than Walleye?

 

[Aweshucks]

Yeah dude. This thread is the first I'm hearing of anybody thinking walleye isn't a great splat zones map.

 

[Agosta44]

Walleye is the new Urchin 1.0 now that they made that a good map. You can easily choke and stop all access points on that map and 100-0.

 

[Avatar K]

Walleye is the new Urchin 1.0 now that they made that a good map. You can easily choke and stop all access points on that map and 100-0.

One team can only effectively do that if they push into enemy territory, blocking the exits to the side paths. Pushing that deep typically means your team is already good enough to win and is difficult due elevations that cannot be swum (sorry if that is the wrong tense) up and the ramps that cannot be inked.

 

[Aweshucks]

Man, we have totally different opinions, Agosta. I liked urchin better before the change and have always considered walleye one if the best maps.

Choke points are really not a problem. Not only are they not bad for competitive play (they're one of the most basic map features and are a staple of almost any map, and not just in splatoon), but there are plenty of options in walleye. There are 3 or 4 ways to get to mid (depending if you count the left flank as one or two). Teams have to push pretty far into your area to effectively stop you from doing something. And if you can't stop your oponents from pushing almost to your spawn, you probably weren't going to win anyway.

Oh, and the defender should have the advantage

 

[GameGalaxy64]

in my opinion, there should not be a neutral/counterpick distinction. all maps that are not banned should be open for picks at all stages. this is not smash where every stage is awful and it's only the ones that suck the least that get through. this is a fps.

This one got me. It was hilarious! :D

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

The only map I'd be down to ban, is morray.

lol @ morray not being an e liter map

 

[flc]

lol @ morray not being an e liter map

"I know better than someone who has mained elitre for a month"

 

[GameGalaxy64]

Why do people want to ban Moray?

 

[1o2]

@Moray not a good E-liter map. flc is right in the regard that E-liter can litearlly do nothing when your team is pushing, unless you are the one riding the tower, which is inconvenient to set up anyway. However E-liter provides a very strong defense game on Moray Towers, so in that respect it is a very good E-liter map. Essentially it's a trade off weapon, where you can guarantee your defense is near impenetrable, but if your team is pushing you will constantly be at the 3v4 disadvantage as flc mentioned.