I'm sorry, I didn't clarify. As far as gametypes, I don't mean modes, I mean the map + mode combination. If we don't like RM Rig, let's keep an eye on it for the future. If we don't like Blackbelly RM, let's keep an eye on it. etc.
Neutrals/Counterpicks/Bans For map selection in tournaments thread
- Thread starter Mr.HawK
- Start date
Typhlosion09
Pro Squid
Okay my opinion, don't hate.
Eliter is good, but not OP.
Moray is a stage that isn't so nice towards competitive play, but there are worse and no maps should be banned. At all.
Eliter on moray is pretty much what flc said. Can't push, help team, etc. Yes at first it's good on that one sniper spot, but fall behind or get ahead and the eliter is stuck in a bad situation. Again basically a 3v4. Even on SZ where the objective doesn't move and is in a good spot for the eliter, it isn't an OP weapon in the slightest. No weapons are. No map/mode combo is. Nothing should be banned.
Eliter is good, but not OP.
Moray is a stage that isn't so nice towards competitive play, but there are worse and no maps should be banned. At all.
Eliter on moray is pretty much what flc said. Can't push, help team, etc. Yes at first it's good on that one sniper spot, but fall behind or get ahead and the eliter is stuck in a bad situation. Again basically a 3v4. Even on SZ where the objective doesn't move and is in a good spot for the eliter, it isn't an OP weapon in the slightest. No weapons are. No map/mode combo is. Nothing should be banned.
I would miss rainmaker
Agosta44
Inkling Fleet Admiral
The problem with Rainmaker is that if you ban 1 map because of stalling you would have to ban almost all maps for the same reason.
Agosta44
Inkling Fleet Admiral
You get into convoluted rule sets you get people that try to manipulate them and complain about losing. You shouldn't have to create your own rules to make something work. Stalling is a viable and fair strategy. That does not mean it's enjoyable to play though, which is why modes are banned to begin with.
Modes aren't banned because they aren't fun to play...
And we can have the debate about whether stalling is fair at a different time, I was just saying that if we were going to ban maps because of stalling it would be a better course of action to ban the act of stalling instead.
And I don't think that it would be too convoluted of a rule. "A team may not keep the rainmaker in one place for longer than [period of time] without making a genuine attempt to move it forward" or even just "teams are not allowed to stall. Interpretation of this rule is up to the TO's discretion"
And we can have the debate about whether stalling is fair at a different time, I was just saying that if we were going to ban maps because of stalling it would be a better course of action to ban the act of stalling instead.
And I don't think that it would be too convoluted of a rule. "A team may not keep the rainmaker in one place for longer than [period of time] without making a genuine attempt to move it forward" or even just "teams are not allowed to stall. Interpretation of this rule is up to the TO's discretion"
Agosta44
Inkling Fleet Admiral
Rainmaker requires you to move forward and back and try to juke the opposite team, which can easily be viewed by anyone as stalling, especially by people who have something to gain from pulling a penalty on the opposing team. Half of moving forward with the rainmaker is based stalling and opening up a path to move forward.
I said enjoyable, not fun. Enjoyable means many different things for both players and spectators.
I said enjoyable, not fun. Enjoyable means many different things for both players and spectators.
GameGalaxy64
Inkling Cadet
Has stalling proven to be a big problem in competitive play, not just hypothetically?
Poyo
Senior Squid
So far, not yet. Because there's no really good way to stall in Splatoon given the selection of relatively balanced weapons and mostly balanced maps, especially in the 4v4 format where stalling will just get your team killed.
Of course, uncoordinated teams might have a problem with the team trapping them in their base in maps like Urchin Underpass, but that's their own fault; they're uncoordinated.
Flying_Tortoise
Sushi Chef
I think stalling is only viable in the last minute anyways. Usually stalling requires hiding in a pathway that is hard for the opposing team to get to, but that spot usually is very close to their own base. This risks getting taken out and and an opportunity to lose the match. Plus the match is 5 min long, both teams had several chances to give it their best shot. If you cant handle gettin stalled the last minute, you shouldnt have allowed the opposition to be at a position to take it anyway
Edit: of course saltspray was that exception
Edit: of course saltspray was that exception
Captain Norris
Inkling Commander
Stalling can work if an opponent takes you out, which causes the rainmaker to drop. If at that time, such as on saltsrpay, your team is in the big area, all they need to do is make sure the opponents do not reach the big area. Simple enough. You don't necessarily have to hold the rainmaker to stall.
Agosta44
Inkling Fleet Admiral
There's plenty of other maps with smaller and more effective stall points than saltspray.
Flying_Tortoise
Sushi Chef
ahhhhh now that makes sense. Question, if you explode with the RM because timer ran out. Does the RM go back to the middle? If not then yes you could leave it there. Knowing this however, an organized squad would check the surrounding area to make sure they aren't about to get baited and taken out to further the stalling. A team could prepare an echo for this
Agosta44
Inkling Fleet Admiral
You can just jump off with it. If you're not past the trigger mark it won't reset to mid.
Citrus
Inkling Cadet
RM pretty much is just stalling, you're not just going to rush into the goal at every time you grab the damn thing
Hitzel
Inkling Commander
You literally can not stall in Rainmaker until the last minute because the rainmaker will explode and respawn in your favor if you just leave the camping rainmaker alive.
You can only loae to mid-match rainmaker stalling if you kill the rainmaker.
You can only loae to mid-match rainmaker stalling if you kill the rainmaker.
Agosta44
Inkling Fleet Admiral
If you push to 2x in majority of maps you can stall the rest of the game.
Citrus
Inkling Cadet
And besides the whole stalling thing, RM is still **** tier because really you just cheese it and that's it
WydrA
Inkling Commander
Stalling was banned in SSBB under pretty much exactly the definition Aweshucks gave. You know it when you see it.
Also, contrary to popular belief, it's essentially the real reason walkoff stages are banned in smash. t means people can just stand at the edge of the stage and wait for you to approach, shield grab, and throw you to your death.
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_out_the_clock pay special attention to the basketball section.
So yeah, trying to stop people from stalling is far from unheard of. It may be a "genuine" way of inning, but it's crappy, boring, uninteresting one that is generally not respected and actively rooted out if possible.
Also, once again, esports means we have to think about spectators as well as players. Stalling is beyond boring to watch and will turn spectators away. That's not to say it won't turn players away as well by the way. It will.
It may not be a problem yet, but it's one of the few things I would support preemptive action against. It's better to just not even let people start entertaining the idea than have to have some big debate later down the road with people who only care about winning their matches... in my opinion.
Also, contrary to popular belief, it's essentially the real reason walkoff stages are banned in smash. t means people can just stand at the edge of the stage and wait for you to approach, shield grab, and throw you to your death.
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_out_the_clock pay special attention to the basketball section.
So yeah, trying to stop people from stalling is far from unheard of. It may be a "genuine" way of inning, but it's crappy, boring, uninteresting one that is generally not respected and actively rooted out if possible.
Also, once again, esports means we have to think about spectators as well as players. Stalling is beyond boring to watch and will turn spectators away. That's not to say it won't turn players away as well by the way. It will.
It may not be a problem yet, but it's one of the few things I would support preemptive action against. It's better to just not even let people start entertaining the idea than have to have some big debate later down the road with people who only care about winning their matches... in my opinion.