Booyah Battle 2 Results!

[Kbot]

regarding rainmaker:

it has to be played. we can't just say "nope we aren't playing this ****" because unlike turf (which is categorically not competitive), rm has reasonable win conditions that may simply be being played to incorrectly.

4 more years! 4 more years!

All seriousness though, I do agree with what flc is saying. RM needs to be tested before we say no.

 

[Blue24]

regarding rainmaker:

it has to be played. we can't just say "nope we aren't playing this ****" because unlike turf (which is categorically not competitive), rm has reasonable win conditions that may simply be being played to incorrectly.

take for example blackbelly: the standard rollout for all teams on all maps in all modes is, more or less, "rush mid". not much strategy involved, no real retreat calls being made, no real responses to situations, just go in and shoot until one side drops then the game ends. that lack of strategy could easily be the reason why rm is a coinflip right now; a more passive approach with focused aggression and responsive retreats could make rm a lot more reasonable (especially given the spawn advantage on blackbelly). I'm not disagreeing that rm is a mess right now, but I think we need to rule out the possibility that we are the reason it's a mess before we discuss banning it--and even when that discussion does become valid, it needs to be based on the maps and modes together, not the mode itself.

That's fine but I think I played it 3-4 out of 6 games, in the games I lost. It wasn't fun having that much to me

 

[flc]

That's fine but I think I played it 3-4 out of 6 games, in the games I lost. It wasn't fun having that much to me

well yeah, I mean I'm not going to say it wasn't overplayed, just that we can't throw the whole mode out because people don't know what they're doing on it yet

 

[BestTeaMaker]

In terms of Rainmaker, we're going to officially ban Saltspray/Hammerhead Bridge Rainmakers. The former because of its really easy way to cheese the match and the latter because of an oob exploit (which will be allowed back into rotation if it gets patched out).

 

[Agosta44]

In terms of Rainmaker, we're going to officially ban Saltspray/Hammerhead Bridge Rainmakers. The former because of its really easy way to cheese the match and the latter because of an oob exploit (which will be allowed back into rotation if it gets patched out).

If you're going to ban Salt Spray for cheesing and Hammerhead for OoB you have to ban almost every single rainmaker map. Rainmaker is based on abusing a lead as much as possible. If you need a write up on stalling/cheesing points for maps I'll do a write up and send it to you on the discord. Just because they did it on 1 map doesn't mean you can't do the same **** on every single one.

 

[jamesrcade]

In terms of Rainmaker, we're going to officially ban Saltspray/Hammerhead Bridge Rainmakers. The former because of its really easy way to cheese the match and the latter because of an oob exploit (which will be allowed back into rotation if it gets patched out).

If you're going down this road you might want to add Kelp Dome to the list.

I'd rather see no bans though, I think it was flc who suggested maybe for these problem maps you make it that a KO is needed to secure a win - if it isn't move on to the next game.

 

[Kbot]

If you're going to ban Salt Spray for cheesing and Hammerhead for OoB you have to ban almost every single rainmaker map. Rainmaker is based on abusing a lead as much as possible. If you need a write up on stalling/cheesing points for maps I'll do a write up and send it to you on the discord. Just because they did it on 1 map doesn't mean you can't do the same **** on every single one.

Here we go with the every map argument by Agosta

It's just that Saltspray has the easiest features AND is the most well-known about place in order to stall. It's not hard to do. Just put the rainmaker on the crane and protect the north. You win. It's not a very kind way to win, but it is something that we have to deal with.

But again, don't leave out any gametypes. Maybe just make RM a little bit less.

 

[SlimyQuagsire]

In terms of Rainmaker, we're going to officially ban Saltspray/Hammerhead Bridge Rainmakers. The former because of its really easy way to cheese the match and the latter because of an oob exploit (which will be allowed back into rotation if it gets patched out).

Why not just ban the out of bounds exploit? If it's used, issue a loss/DQ.

 

[Sol64]

Here we go with the every map argument by Agosta

It's just that Saltspray has the easiest features AND is the most well-known about place in order to stall. It's not hard to do. Just put the rainmaker on the crane and protect the north. You win. It's not a very kind way to win, but it is something that we have to deal with.
But again, don't leave out any gametypes. Maybe just make RM a little bit less.

Honestly, I consider this legal. Think about it, this mode is effectively capture the flag. Once you've captured the flag, you would do anything to prevent the loss of a lead, even if that means abusing the map to place the rainmaker on a part of the stage to secure victory. It just takes very good co-ordination to retrieve it back and if you can't do that then it's your fault. Every team has the same privilege to use this strategy (though the HHB map is effectively using OoB collisions and that's much worse).

Why not just ban the out of bounds exploit? If it's used, issue a loss/DQ.

This reminds me of the super grumble volcano glitch where you finish in 30 seconds. Saltspray is one thing because it's within the boarders of the map but HHB is another kettle of fish because it deprives the whole objective for the players.

 

[Hitzel]

The Rainmaker shenanigans in the Grand Finals Saltspray game I saw was 100% Choke Squad's fault for killing the Rainmaker. There was like 2 minutes left on the clock and they killed the Rainmaker on the crane? I'm sorry Choke Squad but I'm disappointed in such a bad play in a Grand Finals set. There was way more than enough time on the clock to start painting the map and force the Rainmaker to stop stalling before its timer ran out.

 

[MissingNumbers]

If you're going down this road you might want to add Kelp Dome to the list.

Actually it's not much of an out of bounds exploit. It's possible to reach the upper spawn platform by jumping off the pedestal, then the kelp pot. They have to be inked and you sort of need some coordination to get it back, but it's not impossible.

 

[Kbot]

Why not just ban the out of bounds exploit? If it's used, issue a loss/DQ.

That's impossible to keep track of as a TO. I mean, not every team streams, and you can't just go by they said that in order to get a team DQ'd. Photo evidence or something would be the way to go.

Honestly, I consider this legal. Think about it, this mode is effectively capture the flag. Once you've captured the flag, you would do anything to prevent the loss of a lead, even if that means abusing the map to place the rainmaker on a part of the stage to secure victory. It just takes very good co-ordination to retrieve it back and if you can't do that then it's your fault. Every team has the same privilege to use this strategy (though the HHB map is effectively using OoB collisions and that's much worse).

I'm not saying that it should be banned. I don't think any stage should be banned. But, I'm just saying that if we were to ban stages, Saltspray should be one of the first if not the first to think about.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

The ban on Saltspray Rainmaker is because of the combination of crane shenanigans and the fact that there's only 1 choke point to enter the northern area. It can become very easy for a team to maintain control of that point and prevent the opponent from entering at all, especially a team as strong as Squid Box. Even then, there are still seconds wasted in order to wait for the crane to move to an appropriate position in which players can jump onto it.

Kelp Dome's issue is mitigated by the fact that it's deep inside the enemy's spawn point, which is supposed to be hard for you to enter anyways. That kind of cheesing can still be allowed, where once you have the lead, you take the rainmaker into your base and camp hard. But at least your opponents are granted several different ways to try and enter your base.

Basically, Saltspray potentially gives a team 2 "base camps" with hard choke points, which can be hard for the any opposing team to deal with.

Concerning OOB exploits, it is impossible to enforce player action rules. For HHB, the reason that we didn't ban it was because Danny simply didn't know it could happen in that fashion. For that same reason we can't enforce people not getting onto the crane.

We're not banning the maps out right. Saltspray and HHB will still be in rotations for Zones and Tower. Also, we're changing up the algorithm to ensure RM's don't happen as often. It should be noted that RM, SZ, and TC appeared in similar numbers, just that their distribution was off.

 

[Agosta44]

Here we go with the every map argument by Agosta

It's just that Saltspray has the easiest features AND is the most well-known about place in order to stall. It's not hard to do. Just put the rainmaker on the crane and protect the north. You win. It's not a very kind way to win, but it is something that we have to deal with.

But again, don't leave out any gametypes. Maybe just make RM a little bit less.

Here we go with KTKres being passive aggressive with no real arguments. The only reason Salt Spray is being banned is because of the initial kneejerk reaction to RM release and it being done in a finals set. You can stall on basically EVERY MAP. You can go under the stage on Bluefin. You can go out of bounds on Walleye. Are these banned? NOPE because it wasn't done in the tournament. There are more dangerous choke points in Arowana and Mackerel than Salt Spray. Are we going to have to go through this every tournament with banning maps because someone cheesed?

You ban one you ban them all. You cannot pick and choose, especially if the only reason is because it was done in the tournament.

 

[Kbot]

Here we go with KTKres being passive aggressive with no real arguments. The only reason Salt Spray is being banned is because of the initial kneejerk reaction to RM release and it being done in a finals set. You can stall on basically EVERY MAP. You can go under the stage on Bluefin. You can go out of bounds on Walleye. Are these banned? NOPE because it wasn't done in the tournament. There are more dangerous choke points in Arowana and Mackerel than Salt Spray. Are we going to have to go through this every tournament with banning maps because someone cheesed?

You ban one you ban them all. You cannot pick and choose, especially if the only reason is because it was done in the tournament.

Can you stall on every map? Yes. Is it easy to? That's debatable. That's where we all come in. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

 

[Agosta44]

Can you stall on every map? Yes. Is it easy to? That's debatable. That's where we all come in. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

It's not hard to break a stall on Salt Spray because there is no easy respawn point. It's in the far back of the map. You wipe them the stall is broken. Choke Squads inability to wipe TSB is their fault and theirs alone. It is easier to stall on points that forces your opponent to travel deep into/through the enemy base to retrieve the rainmaker.

 

[Hitzel]

It's not hard to break a stall on Salt Spray because there is no easy respawn point. It's in the far back of the map. You wipe them the stall is broken. Choke Squads inability to wipe TSB is their fault and theirs alone. It is easier to stall on points that forces your opponent to travel deep into/through the enemy base to retrieve the rainmaker.

Choke Squad also made it ten times harder on themselves by killing the Rainmaker.

The Rainmaker shenanigans in the Grand Finals Saltspray game I saw was 100% Choke Squad's fault for killing the Rainmaker. There was like 2 minutes left on the clock and they killed the Rainmaker on the crane? I'm sorry Choke Squad but I'm disappointed in such a bad play in a Grand Finals set. There was way more than enough time on the clock to start painting the map and force the Rainmaker to stop stalling before its timer ran out. That's how Squid Squad handles mid and early game Rainmaker stalling and it works.

@BestTeaMaker

 

[jamesrcade]

Kelp Dome's issue is mitigated by the fact that it's deep inside the enemy's spawn point, which is supposed to be hard for you to enter anyways. That kind of cheesing can still be allowed, where once you have the lead, you take the rainmaker into your base and camp hard. But at least your opponents are granted several different ways to try and enter your base.

Just so we're on the same page I'm talking about this:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm27020065

where the only option is to paint the enemy goal + planter, and then try and jump from the planter onto the enemy spawn platform while the enemies can shoot at your from their spawn area with invincibility.

Though like Saltspray I've only encountered these in solo mode where team mates don't really understand what's going on, and kill the rainmaker before it can reset to the middle.

 

[Kbot]

It's not hard to break a stall on Salt Spray because there is no easy respawn point. It's in the far back of the map. You wipe them the stall is broken. Choke Squads inability to wipe TSB is their fault and theirs alone. It is easier to stall on points that forces your opponent to travel deep into/through the enemy base to retrieve the rainmaker.

Then you just proved to me that we shouldn't ban any of them, especially if the other choke points are perfectly the same as Salt's. And even on the other maps, won't the rainmaker be put in the center if you die in further back from where the opposing team has reached?


Why are we arguing on a topic that doesn't even matter? The point is that RM shouldn't be banned and Choke stinks at wiping TSB. Okay. Mistakes were made. Moving on.


We can try it without these two maps if that's what you want to do, BestTeaMaker. We'll try it.

 

[Agosta44]

Then you just proved to me that we shouldn't ban any of them, especially if the other choke points are perfectly the same as Salt's. And even on the other maps, won't the rainmaker be put in the center if you die in further back from where the opposing team has reached?


Why are we arguing on a topic that doesn't even matter? The point is that RM shouldn't be banned and Choke stinks at wiping TSB. Okay. Mistakes were made. Moving on.


We can try it without these two maps if that's what you want to do, BestTeaMaker. We'll try it.

The point is that bans are being made off kneejerk reactions, especially on the point of cheesing when you can do it better on a large portion of the maps in this game.