Clam blitz map pools

[joe???]

I've seen a decent amount of people complain about how the faster respawns and special saver of cooler make it very hard to push on clam blitz, especially on maps where the baskets are far away. As a result people resort to kraken jumps and stuff. Despite this, I often see Crableg clams in tournaments, a map where the baskets are like 300000 kilometers away.

Why don't we see more mako clams in tournaments?? The baskets being so close helps nullify a lot of the problems people have with clams right now, and the map geometry is mako, which on zones is loved by like everyone. In my opinion it might be the best (or at least top 3) clams map in the game.

 

[kyubone]

welllllll...

sure, i enjoy mako clams; my weapon pool tends to work well on it and the layout is pretty fun. the issue with mako clams is that the map is SO small and the baskets are SO close together that a single good push can often snowball into winning the game outright. that doesn't really resolve the issue, either, and i have a feeling that's a big reason why it's not seeing a lot of play.

 

[arias]

and the map geometry is mako, which on zones is loved by like everyone.

its loved by everyone on zones *because* its zones

mako is one of them better zones maps because its small, comfortable to attack and sort of defend on.
but that makes it....not so good on clams

crableg isnt actually as big as youre making it to be, it has good amounts of open space and cover to play around to create meaningful pushes

while in makomart... the baskets are too close to eachother. map control is easy to obtain with a decent push, and keeping the basket open is not hard either if you can just hold the enemies long enough and quickly go back for more clams. its super cramped, meaning making a push requires almost no effort since you can just run for it, which doesnt work on bigger maps as much because your opponents actually have space to defend

thats why one is more popular than the other (doesnt save it from kraken cheese unfortunately)

 

[joe???]

welllllll...

sure, i enjoy mako clams; my weapon pool tends to work well on it and the layout is pretty fun. the issue with mako clams is that the map is SO small and the baskets are SO close together that a single good push can often snowball into winning the game outright. that doesn't really resolve the issue, either, and i have a feeling that's a big reason why it's not seeing a lot of play.

Its way less snowbally due to cooler though. And if both teams have sustained pushes down into the 20-30 points remaining range the result is a very dynamic game.

Mako keeps something I loved about clams in Splatoon 2 intact, which is counter-pushing. A team scoring maybe a power clam and like 3 or 4 small ones but losing all their players should give you a chance to set up for a sustained push of your own if you are able to transition fast enough. Counter-pushing is much, much harder in this game due to cooler, allowing you to all die for a mediocre push and then set up back at your basket before the other team gets a real chance. As a result we get really stagnant clams games in a mode that used to be really dynamic and fun.

In general on the spectrum from snowbally to stagnant cooler has moved every map towards the more stagnant end, which in my opinion has made some maps that were already on the more stagnant end of viable into kraken cheese snoozefests and turned maps you might be able to complain about being snowbally into viable stages.

 

[joe???]

its loved by everyone on zones *because* its zones

mako is one of them better zones maps because its small, comfortable to attack and sort of defend on.
but that makes it....not so good on clams

crableg isnt actually as big as youre making it to be, it has good amounts of open space and cover to play around to create meaningful pushes

while in makomart... the baskets are too close to eachother. map control is easy to obtain with a decent push, and keeping the basket open is not hard either if you can just hold the enemies long enough and quickly go back for more clams. its super cramped, meaning making a push requires almost no effort since you can just run for it, which doesnt work on bigger maps as much because your opponents actually have space to defend

thats why one is more popular than the other (doesnt save it from kraken cheese unfortunately)

Maintaining a push easily is not a bad thing, and it's still possible to defend especially if your team has cooler.

People running in and scoring is annoying but then you can kill them and respond with one of the sustained pushes which are so easy on Mako, just like you said. Plus, the whole problem with clams is that it's too hard to push right now, hence people resorting to kraken.

 

[arias]

Maintaining a push easily is not a bad thing, and it's still possible to defend especially if your team has cooler.

its just that it requires too little effort which is why the map is seen as snowbally
its not easy in a healthy way

i play ntri so personally i love mako clams since my weapon can take advantage of this, but some other weapons have a much harder time especially on defense

so i kinda get what you mean, but again the fact that its so easy to push can be an issue

 

[joe???]

Perhaps the disconnect here is that clam blitz gets harder to push the better players become at not dying. But in my experience, against the teams I face regularly, a clams map being easy to push on is a plus.

 

[zyf_]

I generally agree about baskets needing to be accessible but mako clams is a bit too much for me
it feels like turf war, where if you mess up in the last 30 seconds you just lose cuz it's kinda lottery

also in the same way that cooler might "save" mako, crableg actually isn't that hard to push on relative to other maps, you just need tools to push through the top right grate area

you guys weren't doing it against us and thats why it felt so chill, if you'd vac'd top right at any point we probably would've had to give you the push

barnacle clams can die in a hole tho that map is awful bc on crableg if they stack the topside you have a flank route, on barnacle all you get is a dumb garbage chokepoint and a death pit

 

[zyf_]

generally i'd say i'm more interested in maps where there's a meaningful alternate route AND an obvious front route that is actually strong
i'm fine with the baskets being further back but only if there's actual choices to be made

 

[liligravybread]

I think Mako clams actually works as a kind of 'fun' pick or 'variety option' for a map pool.
I think the very small objective line sets it apart and there are big parts of the map which may be used less frequently compared to Mako tower control or zones (or even rainmaker), but one of the problems I encounter making a map pool is the limited options I have for good tower control and rainmaker maps. Mako is great for zones, pretty much a staple, and tower control there is certainly one of the better ones and probably considered a staple along with Hagglefish and Inkblot.
Now that I have Mako covered for zones and tower, I've kind of reached the limit I can use mako mart for in a map pool (I don't want to include one map across more than two modes because giving more weight to/favoring/having a map appear more often in a map list creates a less even tournament, a less even test of skill for all teams).
To include Mako clams you're basically just looking at making sure you don't include Mako zones in the tournament. There's a little more choice with what zones maps you might see in a pool but it would be a bit less usual to exclude Mako zones.

 

[SnowySprig]

I've seen a decent amount of people complain about how the faster respawns and special saver of cooler make it very hard to push on clam blitz, especially on maps where the baskets are far away. As a result people resort to kraken jumps and stuff. Despite this, I often see Crableg clams in tournaments, a map where the baskets are like 300000 kilometers away.

Why don't we see more mako clams in tournaments?? The baskets being so close helps nullify a lot of the problems people have with clams right now, and the map geometry is mako, which on zones is loved by like everyone. In my opinion it might be the best (or at least top 3) clams map in the game.

i think its not run as much cus mako is such a generally solid map across all modes, and its often ran for sz and tc instead of cb. and i think thats usually because its easier to come across decent cb maps compared to tc, but sz also has plenty imo. ive definitely seen tc/cb mako ran in the past, but not often, and i think it should be ran more

 

[joe???]

I think Mako clams actually works as a kind of 'fun' pick or 'variety option' for a map pool.
I think the very small objective line sets it apart and there are big parts of the map which may be used less frequently compared to Mako tower control or zones (or even rainmaker), but one of the problems I encounter making a map pool is the limited options I have for good tower control and rainmaker maps. Mako is great for zones, pretty much a staple, and tower control there is certainly one of the better ones and probably considered a staple along with Hagglefish and Inkblot.
Now that I have Mako covered for zones and tower, I've kind of reached the limit I can use mako mart for in a map pool (I don't want to include one map across more than two modes because giving more weight to/favoring/having a map appear more often in a map list creates a less even tournament, a less even test of skill for all teams).
To include Mako clams you're basically just looking at making sure you don't include Mako zones in the tournament. There's a little more choice with what zones maps you might see in a pool but it would be a bit less usual to exclude Mako zones.

I would put mako in for 3 modes. It is hard to be picky with the general lack of good maps in this game. And I don't really get the argument that putting mako in a lot favoring certain teams over others as being a bad thing for testing players skills, we make map lists in the first place to favor certain playstyles that we value as a scene.

Many of the maps we don't put in maplists are the ones most favorable to suppressive long range stuff such as eliter and crab, like eeltail, bluefin or mincemeat. The fact that eliter teams are disfavored by our maplists doesn't mean that our tournaments are less a test of skill, just more a test of the skills we value, so it should be fine to include a map a lot if we think it favors the kinds of skills we value like clever use of map geometry, intelligent team play and going for risky but rewarding plays.