Fixing All of the Strong Sub Weapons

[Algae]

So I've heard some ideas for loosening the kit system in future Splatoon games, either via mix-or-matching from a few choices, or letting you use any combination from the whole lists of sub/special weapons (at least in Private Battles). Problem with the latter: not only will some subs always fit a higher number of main weapons than others will, but some are straight-up more powerful at meeting certain expectations, nearly outclassing many others outright. For example, who wouldn't find Burst Bomb stronger than anything else for most weapons in the games' current condition? And Splat Bomb would almost break Tetra Dualies and .52 Gal, but that's not much of a topic for this post.

I'll list the sub weapons many people find overtuned, and my own ideas for 'em. Lemme know what y'all think of such.

Burst Bomb
Apart from the traits of a lethal bomb, Burst Bomb nearly has it all. Need paint to move? It works (less so if you have a swift Stringer to burst-fire with). Need damage comboes or a range extension? It works at mid-range (less so if your main weapon has worse zone control than Octobrush's). Need to halt someone's movement? It works (with less displacement than Splat Bomb, but an Explosher does the job better, frame data aside). Other than that, it's only Hydra that I hear is too startup-oriented to use Burst Bomb often (making better use of non-fighting subs). I like Burst Bomb's importance to Carbon Roller, but I feel like its sheer combo utility would diminish the uniqueness of some other weapons, mainly Brellas.

As for nerfing this thing, a small reduction to the painting radius (perhaps with the 35-damage/explosion sweetspot, like they were both reduced a bit at Splat 3's release?) would be cool, since seeing its sheer size on a wall is awkward (you can jump above the bottom of a wall anyway). For the first and last ability I mentioned, though, a reduction in Burst Bomb's range (probably to the upper end of Slosher range) is the more important action to take, partly since the bomb doesn't look like it'd have the inertia to fly the same distance as Splat Bomb.

Splat Bomb
I would slightly reduce this thing's lethal radius. Seems simple, but as for another matter, this weapon can roll on the ground and its 1-second fuse time starts when it touches the ground. Thus, its time staying near one point in space before it explodes can easily be reduced, so a small buffer of time after throwing the bomb before the fuse time can advance would be useful, specifically. Something unique to this weapon and its derivates is that its fuse time pauses if it falls off a ledge. The latter nerf I mentioned will actually mitigate this, too.

Fizzy Bomb
Ah, yes, a smaller Curling Bomb trail combined with bomb hitboxes that can linger at a contested area. Fizzy Bomb is quite versatile, similarly to Torpedo, yet its trail always has the two subs' long range, even uncharged. This combined with the slight notches formed in less-charged trails makes this seem like a more difficult Curling Bomb that virtually outclasses it if the skill floor is met. My remedy of choice for this is for the bomb's range to depend on the number of charges: the nerfed Burst Bomb's for none, Splat Bomb's for one, and Torpedo's as usual for two.

Suction Bomb
This sub is admittedly similar to Splat Bomb in its ability to displace opponents with a single explosion. While it's ability to stick to walls is sometimes used for sneak attacks, its more prominent niche over Splat Bomb is "bomb on side of Tower pole, stream of gunfire on other side, boom, tower reclaimed". To make this thing weaker overall, I would slightly increase both its 2-second fuse time and its lethal radius. First, its slowness would be somewhat mitigated by its explosion increasing the displacement size more (it already has more than Splat Bomb but ya get the point). Second, any enemy near the bomb would have a tad more time to act before the area becomes inaccessible. The bomb will also paint more of an area, another small help to weapons with questionable paint.

Splash Wall
Shoutout to OnePotWonder for making some clear ideas on making this sub healthier for the game. It's too difficult for those without lethal bombs to break, so its max HP shall go from 800 to 500, but its base duration will take some more time. The other suggestion is to not have its throwing distance to suddenly take space so far up like it does for the .52 Gal. The only weapon where Splash Wall's throwing distance interests me at all is the Glooga Dualies, which can move right behind a thrown Wall with one dodge roll (thus also being protected at the front from bombs, whereas "showering" at the center makes one vulnerable to bombs). I would definitely reduce the throwing distance, at LEAST to make dodge-rolling after walking backwards put a Glooga user right behind the wall's center. Lastly, there's no reason not to have a throwing distance indicator like for other sub weapons, and maybe let you throw it at your feet if it makes the sub's use more interesting (it can be bounced off a vertical surface onto the tower already, though).

 

[SAMICOM]

So I've heard some ideas for loosening the kit system in future Splatoon games, either via mix-or-matching from a few choices, or letting you use any combination from the whole lists of sub/special weapons (at least in Private Battles). Problem with the latter: not only will some subs always fit a higher number of main weapons than others will, but some are straight-up more powerful at meeting certain expectations, nearly outclassing many others outright. For example, who wouldn't find Burst Bomb stronger than anything else for most weapons in the games' current condition? And Splat Bomb would almost break Tetra Dualies and .52 Gal, but that's not much of a topic for this post.

I'll list the sub weapons many people find overtuned, and my own ideas for 'em. Lemme know what y'all think of such.

Burst Bomb
Apart from the traits of a lethal bomb, Burst Bomb nearly has it all. Need paint to move? It works (less so if you have a swift Stringer to burst-fire with). Need damage comboes or a range extension? It works at mid-range (less so if your main weapon has worse zone control than Octobrush's). Need to halt someone's movement? It works (with less displacement than Splat Bomb, but an Explosher does the job better, frame data aside). Other than that, it's only Hydra that I hear is too startup-oriented to use Burst Bomb often (making better use of non-fighting subs). I like Burst Bomb's importance to Carbon Roller, but I feel like its sheer combo utility would diminish the uniqueness of some other weapons, mainly Brellas.

As for nerfing this thing, a small reduction to the painting radius (perhaps with the 35-damage/explosion sweetspot, like they were both reduced a bit at Splat 3's release?) would be cool, since seeing its sheer size on a wall is awkward (you can jump above the bottom of a wall anyway). For the first and last ability I mentioned, though, a reduction in Burst Bomb's range (probably to the upper end of Slosher range) is the more important action to take, partly since the bomb doesn't look like it'd have the inertia to fly the same distance as Splat Bomb.

Splat Bomb
I would slightly reduce this thing's lethal radius. Seems simple, but as for another matter, this weapon can roll on the ground and its 1-second fuse time starts when it touches the ground. Thus, its time staying near one point in space before it explodes can easily be reduced, so a small buffer of time after throwing the bomb before the fuse time can advance would be useful, specifically. Something unique to this weapon and its derivates is that its fuse time pauses if it falls off a ledge. The latter nerf I mentioned will actually mitigate this, too.

Fizzy Bomb
Ah, yes, a smaller Curling Bomb trail combined with bomb hitboxes that can linger at a contested area. Fizzy Bomb is quite versatile, similarly to Torpedo, yet its trail always has the two subs' long range, even uncharged. This combined with the slight notches formed in less-charged trails makes this seem like a more difficult Curling Bomb that virtually outclasses it if the skill floor is met. My remedy of choice for this is for the bomb's range to depend on the number of charges: the nerfed Burst Bomb's for none, Splat Bomb's for one, and Torpedo's as usual for two.

Suction Bomb
This sub is admittedly similar to Splat Bomb in its ability to displace opponents with a single explosion. While it's ability to stick to walls is sometimes used for sneak attacks, its more prominent niche over Splat Bomb is "bomb on side of Tower pole, stream of gunfire on other side, boom, tower reclaimed". To make this thing weaker overall, I would slightly increase both its 2-second fuse time and its lethal radius. First, its slowness would be somewhat mitigated by its explosion increasing the displacement size more (it already has more than Splat Bomb but ya get the point). Second, any enemy near the bomb would have a tad more time to act before the area becomes inaccessible. The bomb will also paint more of an area, another small help to weapons with questionable paint.

Splash Wall
Shoutout to OnePotWonder for making some clear ideas on making this sub healthier for the game. It's too difficult for those without lethal bombs to break, so its max HP shall go from 800 to 500, but its base duration will take some more time. The other suggestion is to not have its throwing distance to suddenly take space so far up like it does for the .52 Gal. The only weapon where Splash Wall's throwing distance interests me at all is the Glooga Dualies, which can move right behind a thrown Wall with one dodge roll (thus also being protected at the front from bombs, whereas "showering" at the center makes one vulnerable to bombs). I would definitely reduce the throwing distance, at LEAST to make dodge-rolling after walking backwards put a Glooga user right behind the wall's center. Lastly, there's no reason not to have a throwing distance indicator like for other sub weapons, and maybe let you throw it at your feet if it makes the sub's use more interesting (it can be bounced off a vertical surface onto the tower already, though).

Yeah, I quite like this

 

[isaac4]

Fizzy Bomb
Ah, yes, a smaller Curling Bomb trail combined with bomb hitboxes that can linger at a contested area. Fizzy Bomb is quite versatile, similarly to Torpedo, yet its trail always has the two subs' long range, even uncharged. This combined with the slight notches formed in less-charged trails makes this seem like a more difficult Curling Bomb that virtually outclasses it if the skill floor is met. My remedy of choice for this is for the bomb's range to depend on the number of charges: the nerfed Burst Bomb's for none, Splat Bomb's for one, and Torpedo's as usual for two.

While I don't agree with everything listed in this thread, I do think this specific change for Fizzy makes so much sense that I'm surprised it never ended up actually happening.
Making the player have to commit to fully charging Fizzy to get the maximum amount of range would make it easier for Curling Bomb to compete with it as a mobility tool and the shorter trail would also slightly nerf the paint output.

 

[OnePotWonder]

I have a much simpler version of these same takes. All bombs should have their explosion radii nerfed. Again. With extra emphasis on the radii of lethal bombs. Lethal bombs should really have to be within arm's reach to be able to splat someone; giving them a medium damage radius where they deal 70 damage could be another solution. In any case, all bombs should definitely paint less.

Curling Bomb should be reworked into a combo sub; exploding on contact with an enemy player to deal 70 direct damage. That finally gives it an excuse to be on weapons like L-3 and REEF-LUX.

As for Fizzy Bomb, I think it should only deal 45 direct damage and 30 indirect damage, and have its ink cost be dependent on what level of charge it has; 55% for no charge, 60% for partial charge, and 65% for full charge.

A realistic change for Splash Wall would be a durability reduction down to 600 HP. I do still think that it having no range is a good change, but it does leave the Glooga Dualies in a not great spot. I think they would definitely need the damage to combo one shot of their standard fire with one shot of their turret mode fire.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

A realistic change for Splash Wall would be a durability reduction down to 600 HP. I do still think that it having no range is a good change, but it does leave the Glooga Dualies in a not great spot. I think they would definitely need the damage to combo one shot of their standard fire with one shot of their turret mode fire.

Having no range might be a nerf for .52 gal, but it would absolutely be a buff for zf charger. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to be right on top of it and about to shoot, only for it to use the wall, back up 2 steps, and hit you with the shot it charged as you were going around the wall. One of the major weaknesses of wall is that it has to already be up when you are getting attacked, because of that throw distance. It means the spot you throw the wall from isn't the spot that is safe, and that's a big deal.

Also, it would make it so much safer from other long range weapons because it could much more quickly and easily deploy the wall right on the edge of where it's sniping from, especially in places that would otherwise be difficult or impossible to place the wall on. Including but not limited to the tower control tower.

And even though this would (probably) still make .52 gal worse, I don't like it for that either because it makes it near impossible to use it to push up aggressively. Yes, that's what's annoying about .52 gal, but without it the sub doesn't do much for it. The part that's annoying is how it can repeatedly place walls to ratchet itself further and further in while being protected the whole time.

So think a better change would be to increase the ink consumption. 60% is quite small, especially since that can easily get even smaller with sub saver and/or LDE. It's no wonder .52 gals can chain walls so easily. 70% would be a lot, especially for more ink-hungry weapons like explo, but that's why those abilities exist. Most wall weapons can stand to lose a bit of gear freedom.

A lot of weapons have a very hard time doing a reasonable amount of damage to wall, so I see where you're coming from with the 600 health, but that leaves it very vulnerable to bombs. Setting up a wall, having two bombs immediately thrown at it, and not having a wall anymore is not fun. It's already like that to some extent, but this would make it so much worse. So all bombs will do drastically less damage to wall. By maybe 60% or so. If anything, splash wall should be a counter to bombs, not the other way around, but I don't want to give it too many strengths, so I won't lower it more than that. Now that that's there, 600 health actually seems somewhat reasonable. I would do 700 though, because of the ink consumption nerf (and because it makes the numbers match).