Fixing Weak Sub Weapons

[OnePotWonder]

There are five sub weapons in Splatoon that are often considered weaker than other options, usually outclassed by at least one other sub on every main weapon to exist in the game. These five are, in descending order of power, Point Sensor, Ink Mine, Sprinkler, Toxic Mist, and Angle Shooter. The low power levels of these subs handicap a lot of really fun kits, like vanilla Splattershot Pro, Slosher Deco, Light Tetra Dualies, and Splatana Stamper Nouveau. These subs need buffs to compete with even heavily nerfed bombs. Here's my take on what those buffs should be:

Point Sensor

Ink cost reduced from 45% to 40%​

Point Sensor is already a decent sub weapon in Splatoon 3's current meta due to the prevalence of powerful, aggressive weapons on the shorter side of range. Said weapons are greatly hindered by direct location, which Point Sensor has in spades. A small ink cost decrease would do a lot to make the sub more reasonable in contrast to options like bombs, especially the similarly priced Burst Bomb.

Ink Mine

Close explosion damage increased from 45 to 60​

Ink cost reduced from 60% to 55%​

Detonation time increased by 0.5 of a second​

Ink Mine is the next closest sub to being viable over other options on the right weapons. The primary utility of the mines, other than as a warning for enemies entering a certain area of the map, is as a pre-set combo sub able to deal 35 damage as consistently as a Torpedo. The problem with Ink Mine is that it doesn't have enough strengths to offset its extreme range weakness. Ink Mines cannot be used to poke enemies, as part of the core identity of the sub. The ability to deal the same maximum damage as Torpedo and Burst Bomb would drastically improve its combo potential on most of the weapons that currently have the sub.

Buffing Ink Mines' damage to over 50 does come with the small "issue" of two overlapping mines being lethal if they both deal their direct damage. Increasing the mines' detonation time helps to counteract this without nullifying it, but is also a significant nerf in its own right. As such, extra compensation would be added in the form of an ink cost decrease.
Credit to @youre_a_squib_now for inspiring this counterbalance.

Sprinkler

Rotation speed in high power reduced from 33 to 24 degrees per frame​

Hitting an enemy or object directly with a Sprinkler deals 45 damage​

The sub will bounce off of enemies or objects hit and act normally upon landing​

Medium power duration increased from 15 to 18 seconds​

Displays an HUD pop-up similar to Ink Mine's when broken​

Inks the ground beneath the user's feet when thrown​

I like giving Sprinkler fun changes that give it more utility, since most other buffs only make it better at painting. The first change seems a bit arbitrary at first, but it actually buffs the consistency of the sub's paint in high power mode by doubling the number of directions in which it fires, leaving no gaps between droplets. Being able to hit an enemy with a Sprinkler is not only hilarious but also gives the sub a lot more utility on weapons like .96 Gal and S-BLAST '92 as a weird combo tool. This change also makes it so objects like Splash Walls, Big Bubblers, and the Rainmaker barrier no longer delete thrown Sprinklers.

The rest is all quality of life, improving Sprinklers' utility as distractions or long-term painters. The only meaningful QoL buff is the sub painting the user's feet, since it no longer has to be thrown directly downward to function as an escape tool for weapons like Dynamo Roller.

Toxic Mist

Slow decreased to a constant 15% speed reduction​

Ink drain replaced with ink recovery denial​

Deals 0.33 damage per frame (20 DPS)​

In order for a sub weapon to be good, it must paint, deal damage, or do something else really well like locate opponents or improve a player's movement. Toxic Mist does none of these things. I am making it do one of these things. With the ability to deal damage at a rate of 20 DPS, any enemies that enter the mist or get trapped by it become a lot more vulnerable to many weapons, especially those that have Toxic Mist in their kits. Despite the fact that it would have significantly less of an impact on the movement of enemies, this buffed Toxic Mist would block off space way better with the threat of its damage. Even if it doesn't, it will actually weaken enemies in a meaningful way.

Angle Shooter

Direct damage increased from 40 to 45​

Trail damage increased from 0 to 20​

Damage dealt to objects tripled​

Last, but certainly not least, Angle Shooter. If you haven't seen my latest post in General Discussion, this sub was very clearly originally designed and balanced around its trail dealing damage to enemies. As such, that buff alone massively improves the sub on most of the main weapons it's on, giving them the slightest amount of damage they need to splat with one fewer shot. The direct damage buff is there 90% because its current 40 damage is a huge pet peeve of mine (no other sub or special deals 40 damage why can't it just be 45?) but it would also be nice for Bloblobber against Sub Resistance Up users, and Big Swig Roller Express. The object damage buff is my own idea, largely spawned from "why can't this thing one-shot a Sprinkler? Why can't this thing two-shot a Sprinkler???" Being able to snipe objects at a distance with this sub would be immensely satisfying.

Feel free to share your own ideas below if you have different ones.
Thanks for reading, and have a wonderful day!

 

[Forma]

I'm just going to copypaste what I started to type up in the other thread since it's relevant to the point here.

The first of these two cases is Angle Shooter, the weakest sub weapon in the game. According to this post made by the Splatoon NA Twitter account before the release of Splatoon 3, it says specifically, "If they touch the line, they take damage..."

But neither the equivalent Splatoon JP tweet, nor its parent tweet, make that claim. The video used doesn't really suggest that either - it shows the bouncing mechanic, and the rebound hit mechanic that's still in the final game, but neither time does it show an enemy walking through the trail.
Since the parameter exists, it might have been tested at some point, but as to whether or not it's a good idea? I'm extremely torn on that. On one hand, the trail doing damage would increase the pressure it can put out by making the decision to walk through more difficult than simply getting marked and would make it a more reliable combo tool for certain weapons. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the intention of the sub is to reward precision and calculation, and making the trail do damage takes away from that. The speed at which the trail comes out contributes to that - what's easier, hitting a direct on a weakened foe or cutting them off just a frame or two later with an indirect shot? If the trail has to do damage, 20 is about the highest I would go - anything more is liable to become overwhelming given that the trail comes out nearly instantaneously with a greater reach than anything else in the game, and 20 means that most of them are still better off aiming for that direct to secure a kill anyway.

Natural Object Shredder though? Yes, absolutely! I'm so glad someone else is on the same page because it feels like a no-brainer. Most weapons are sacrificing much more ink than they would normally use to destroy objects by throwing an Angle Shooter, so why not let it have the niche of destroying things from a distance/in a shorter amount of time in exchange for more ink use?
Again, though, I think the range means it should be either toned back or not affect certain objects entirely for balancing reasons. Sprinklers, Beakons, Splash Walls? By all means, I think those should get the typical effect, but it wouldn't be very fun to get an armored special weapon chewed up by an Angle Shooter user way off in the distance dealing triple Object Shredder damage.
While writing this, another idea came to me - what if Object Shredder damage on Angle Shooter was proportional to distance traveled? The longer it goes, the less damage it does. It still keeps x1 OS at a distance, but maybe it could do 3x (or higher?) at point blank.

Another interesting idea I saw floating around while doing legwork for this thread is the idea of the Angle Shooter piercing opponents like Charger shots. I don't think the dart should do damage to a player behind it in this way, and admittedly it doesn't quite make logical sense for it to do this, but it would give it more utility as a marking tool were the trail to pass through the player it hits without rebounding - potentially catching other players without being too overwhelming.

---
Other comments while I'm here:
- Point Sensor cost sounds agreeable, I don't see why not
- Ink Mine damage is a little iffier because of the ability to place multiple in very close to the same spot. I think they (rightfully) want to avoid Ink Mines being a one-shot
- For Sprinkler, why the rotation speed nerf? I don't think it should be dealing damage on a direct hit, much less the same as the buffed Angle Shooter, so if that's the "downside" I'd just axe that altogether. Disregard this, I'm illiterate apparently. I get the idea behind the rotation speed change now but am still not convinced about the damage. Bouncing off of things and popping a notification when destroyed seem like much-needed QOL, though.
- I'd have to gather my thoughts on the Toxic Mist change and this is already a pretty long post as it is, so I'll probably do that another time.

One last suggestion:
Why not let Beakon users act as a living Beakon? That is, apply the benefits of Sub Power Up when jumping directly to the Beakon user as well as the individual Beakons. It's always a tad frustrating seeing teammates jump directly to me when jumping to one of my Beakons could have had them back in the fray much quicker. If mobility is the concern, perhaps half SPU effects would be a good compromise? Bare minimum, if you're right next to your Beakon, the game shouldn't punish you for such a minor cursor slip.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

- For Sprinkler, why the rotation speed nerf?

Here's the original thread where the rotation speed was discussed. It should have a decent explanation.
After looking over it again though, I actually think that 24 degrees per frame is significantly worse than 33, according to the Desmos graph I made. But I also notice that said graph, when set to 33 degrees per frame, doesn't seem to match up with what actually happens in the game. I'll look into this again and post what I find in that thread, to avoid clogging up this one.

 

[OnePotWonder]

- For Sprinkler, why the rotation speed nerf? I don't think it should be dealing damage on a direct hit, much less the same as the buffed Angle Shooter, so if that's the "downside" I'd just axe that altogether.

I like giving Sprinkler fun changes that give it more utility, since most other buffs only make it better at painting. The first change seems a bit arbitrary at first, but it actually buffs the consistency of the sub's paint in high power mode by doubling the number of directions in which it fires, leaving no gaps between droplets.

 

[Forma]

Aye, my bad. Amended.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Cheaper point sensor is fine, but maybe not necessary. As you said, it's the closest in power to the other subs, and I wouldn't want to risk making it too ink efficient. It probably wouldn't be a problem though, since all it does is locate, and so it might as well do it even better.

The problem with Ink Mine is that it doesn't have enough strengths to offset its extreme range weakness. Ink Mines cannot be used to poke enemies, as part of the core identity of the sub.

I fully agree. This is the thing that needs fixed.

The ability to deal the same maximum damage as Torpedo and Burst Bomb would drastically improve its combo potential on most of the weapons that currently have the sub.

I don't think this on its own is a good thing. It explodes quickly enough that it's very hard to react to, and giving it such strong combo potential could make it very difficult to survive after hitting one. But without a damage increase, it's hard to see it accomplishing anything at all. I think a slightly longer detonation time could help balance this out. Right now it kind of feels like it just hits me and there's not much I can do about it once it's triggered, but this should make it force the opponent to back up, or deal more damage if they don't, which feels like more fair counterplay than what it currently has while also being more useful for the user.

Sprinkler

Rotation speed in high power reduced from 33 to 24 degrees per frame​

Hitting an enemy or object directly with a Sprinkler deals 45 damage​

The sub will bounce off of enemies or objects hit and act normally upon landing​

Medium power duration increased from 15 to 18 seconds​

Displays an HUD pop-up similar to Ink Mine's when broken​

If I'm going to talk about changing the rotation speed, I might as well do it properly. Post hopefully coming in that thread soon.

I don't like the sprinkler bonk. As funny as it may be, it's basically just a worse, more expensive dart. If it synergized with sprinkler's current uses I might think differently of it, but throwing a sprinkler directly at someone has no other use. It's just going to get shot down before it can do anything. I do like it not vanishing upon contact with stuff though.

The duration increase and destruction notification aren't problematic, but I don't see the point. Sprinkler's mid- and low-power phases are almost completely pointless anyway; the turf is already painted over at that point (with the exception of the gaps left by the high-power mode). No one is going to ink under the sprinkler again without destroying it first. Similarly, you don't need a notification to see if it's broken or not because it's right in front of you. If you can't see whether someone is shooting the sprinkler, you probably don't care anyway, because either it's an old sprinkler that already painted what it's going to or you're not close enough anymore to actually make use of the paint. I'd say this is on the same level as beakons' location; slightly useful in a few circumstances, but not enough to make a noticeable difference.

Toxic Mist

Slow decreased to a constant 15% speed reduction​

Ink drain replaced with ink recovery denial​

Deals 0.33 damage per frame (20 DPS)​

In order for a sub weapon to be good, it must paint, deal damage, or locate opponents really well. Toxic Mist does none of these things. I am making it do one of these things.

It feels like you added "locate opponents really well" just to include point sensor, but there's no reason for specifically locating opponents to be worth qualifying a sub as good if other things don't. I'd change it to "paint, deal damage, or do something else extremely well". As an example, curling bomb. Yes, it paints and does damage, but it does extremely little of both. The damage is easily avoidable, and the paint isn't nearly enough to help with area control. The charged mode usually takes too long to be useful for either. It primarily does one thing, and that one thing is movement. It lays down just enough ink for it to be easy to swim through, and it moves at the same speed you swim so that it can't be painted over before you can use it. It does movement, and it does it better than anything else in the game. That's what makes it good. If toxic mist was the best in the game at what it does, by enough to be worth not having what it doesn't do, then it would be good.

I realized today what mist does differently than bombs. Bombs require you to move immediately, cutting off an option for as long as you're in combat. Outside of combat, it can be easily painted over and forgotten about, although if used well it can still interrupt what you were planning to do. Toxic mist can't be gotten rid of; you have to wait it out. Ideally, it should be the opposite of bombs, not stopping you from fighting in the moment, but keeping you from remaining in or moving through an area for a period of time. I think the devs were onto something with the current design of mist, it just isn't balanced properly. I think all three of your changes go against this vision for the sub. They aren't terrible though, they just don't bring it closer to being how I described above.

The goal is to make it so that you can be in the mist, but you can't stay in it. That's kind of vague but hopefully it'll make sense after reading what changes I did think of. Adding damage in a way makes it more like bombs, encouraging you to leave as soon as possible to avoid being comboed. I don't really like it, but maybe a smaller amount of damage could work, so that aside from very specific combos it wouldn't be as relevant until after some time.
The constant speed and ink recovery prevention I just flatly disagree with. If toxic mist is thrown at you, it shouldn't keep you from fighting whatever fight you're in. If anything, I would change it so that the ink drain and movement reduction start at zero and increase from there if you start inside the mist. If you enter it after it's already thrown, it can start at whatever amount it does now. The point is that it doesn't require immediate action at all, but rather passively makes it very disadvantageous to stay there. It's hard to gauge exactly how quickly the penalty should increase and what the limit should be, though. Especially since you don't run into it that often in Open.

Also, my previous biggest problem with it was that preventing movement is very annoying. But if it starts at zero, then any movement restriction is your choice to not leave the mist. It's like splat bomb; its main purpose isn't to get splats, it's to move you because it could get splats. In the same way, mist should keep you out because it would be disadvantageous to fight if you were inside it.

Oh, and you shouldn't be able to squid roll through it. I feel like that's obvious.

Sprinklers, Beakons, Splash Walls? By all means, I think those should get the typical effect, but it wouldn't be very fun to get an armored special weapon chewed up by an Angle Shooter user way off in the distance dealing triple Object Shredder damage.

Not going to bother talking about dart atm since Forma did a pretty good job of that and I have other threads I'd rather work on responding to. But I would like to point out that these three subs are pretty much the only relevant non-specials that are objects, aside from the rainmaker shield. Using a sprinkler only for it to be deleted by a dart from a distance would feel terrible, and beakons are usually behind cover in ways that would be hard to ricochet to. Splash wall needs more counterplay in general but I'd rather it just be nerfed directly instead of buffing one thing against it.
The range makes so many other potential buffs not work. If it wasn't so extreme, these things wouldn't be as much of an issue. But it's somewhat necessary for hitting people behind cover. Maybe it should get less range but it gets extended every time it bounces? with diminishing returns so it can't just bounce infinitely in a narrow corridor.

 

[OnePotWonder]

I don't think this on its own is a good thing. It explodes quickly enough that it's very hard to react to, and giving it such strong combo potential could make it very difficult to survive after hitting one. But without a damage increase, it's hard to see it accomplishing anything at all. I think a slightly longer detonation time could help balance this out. Right now it kind of feels like it just hits me and there's not much I can do about it once it's triggered, but this should make it force the opponent to back up, or deal more damage if they don't, which feels like more fair counterplay than what it currently has while also being more useful for the user.

It feels like you added "locate opponents really well" just to include point sensor, but there's no reason for specifically locating opponents to be worth qualifying a sub as good if other things don't. I'd change it to "paint, deal damage, or do something else extremely well". As an example, curling bomb. Yes, it paints and does damage, but it does extremely little of both. The damage is easily avoidable, and the paint isn't nearly enough to help with area control. The charged mode usually takes too long to be useful for either. It primarily does one thing, and that one thing is movement. It lays down just enough ink for it to be easy to swim through, and it moves at the same speed you swim so that it can't be painted over before you can use it. It does movement, and it does it better than anything else in the game. That's what makes it good. If toxic mist was the best in the game at what it does, by enough to be worth not having what it doesn't do, then it would be good.

Valid points. I'll make some changes regarding this.

I don't like the sprinkler bonk. As funny as it may be, it's basically just a worse, more expensive dart. If it synergized with sprinkler's current uses I might think differently of it, but throwing a sprinkler directly at someone has no other use. It's just going to get shot down before it can do anything. I do like it not vanishing upon contact with stuff though.

The duration increase and destruction notification aren't problematic, but I don't see the point. Sprinkler's mid- and low-power phases are almost completely pointless anyway; the turf is already painted over at that point (with the exception of the gaps left by the high-power mode). No one is going to ink under the sprinkler again without destroying it first. Similarly, you don't need a notification to see if it's broken or not because it's right in front of you. If you can't see whether someone is shooting the sprinkler, you probably don't care anyway, because either it's an old sprinkler that already painted what it's going to or you're not close enough anymore to actually make use of the paint. I'd say this is on the same level as beakons' location; slightly useful in a few circumstances, but not enough to make a noticeable difference.

Ultimately, buffing Sprinkler in a meaningful way without overtuning its paint while also keeping its identity intact is a really difficult task. How do you buff a sub that's meant to paint and only paint, and can sometimes rarely be used for shielding? The best idea I've heard is giving it 200 HP and a new model with a taller hitbox. And that has its own problems, such as not being viable as a change in Splatoon 3. I suppose they could make throwing the sub paint the user's feet, like Torpedo. That wouldn't be as insignificant as the other QoL changes I gave it.

I realized today what mist does differently than bombs. Bombs require you to move immediately, cutting off an option for as long as you're in combat. Outside of combat, it can be easily painted over and forgotten about, although if used well it can still interrupt what you were planning to do. Toxic mist can't be gotten rid of; you have to wait it out. Ideally, it should be the opposite of bombs, not stopping you from fighting in the moment, but keeping you from remaining in or moving through an area for a period of time. I think the devs were onto something with the current design of mist, it just isn't balanced properly. I think all three of your changes go against this vision for the sub. They aren't terrible though, they just don't bring it closer to being how I described above.

The goal is to make it so that you can be in the mist, but you can't stay in it. That's kind of vague but hopefully it'll make sense after reading what changes I did think of. Adding damage in a way makes it more like bombs, encouraging you to leave as soon as possible to avoid being comboed. I don't really like it, but maybe a smaller amount of damage could work, so that aside from very specific combos it wouldn't be as relevant until after some time.
The constant speed and ink recovery prevention I just flatly disagree with. If toxic mist is thrown at you, it shouldn't keep you from fighting whatever fight you're in. If anything, I would change it so that the ink drain and movement reduction start at zero and increase from there if you start inside the mist. If you enter it after it's already thrown, it can start at whatever amount it does now. The point is that it doesn't require immediate action at all, but rather passively makes it very disadvantageous to stay there. It's hard to gauge exactly how quickly the penalty should increase and what the limit should be, though. Especially since you don't run into it that often in Open.

Also, my previous biggest problem with it was that preventing movement is very annoying. But if it starts at zero, then any movement restriction is your choice to not leave the mist. It's like splat bomb; its main purpose isn't to get splats, it's to move you because it could get splats. In the same way, mist should keep you out because it would be disadvantageous to fight if you were inside it.

Oh, and you shouldn't be able to squid roll through it. I feel like that's obvious.

I kind of understand what you're saying, but at the same time, not really. Your ideas seem to contradict one another. On the one hand you say that Mist should be the opposite of bombs; walling out space for longer at the cost of being less threatening, which is basically the way the sub works now. But then you say that it should force players to leave the cloud quickly or have face a penalty, exactly the same as bombs but without the threat of damage. I'm not exactly sure what to make of your feedback other than that you don't really like the idea of Mist doing damage and slowing at a flat rate.

I'd like to come to a compromise, but I really can't see Mist doing its current job well without being a nuisance. It needs to do something other than slow and drain ink to be a good sub weapon, and it can't have scaling slow and ink drain if it does something else. The only potential alternative would be capping its maximum effects at something like a 33.3% slow and 10% ink drain per second, and having the effects start at the maximum when an enemy enters the cloud, rather than being caught in it when it appears. Somewhat akin to what you were thinking.

Not going to bother talking about dart atm since Forma did a pretty good job of that and I have other threads I'd rather work on responding to. But I would like to point out that these three subs are pretty much the only relevant non-specials that are objects, aside from the rainmaker shield. Using a sprinkler only for it to be deleted by a dart from a distance would feel terrible, and beakons are usually behind cover in ways that would be hard to ricochet to. Splash wall needs more counterplay in general but I'd rather it just be nerfed directly instead of buffing one thing against it.
The range makes so many other potential buffs not work. If it wasn't so extreme, these things wouldn't be as much of an issue. But it's somewhat necessary for hitting people behind cover. Maybe it should get less range but it gets extended every time it bounces? with diminishing returns so it can't just bounce infinitely in a narrow corridor.

I would argue it's the Sprinkler user's fault if the Sprinkler they place gets immediately sniped by an Angle Shooter. Though double damage might be fairer since IIRC Burst Bombs can't one-shot Sprinklers either.