How Defense Up & Damage Up (Seem to) Work

[DaBoss]

This thread will cover what we know about Defense Up and Damage Up so far. Some of this stuff was posted in this thread, but I think there should be a thread dedicated for this. Going to be starting off with Defense Up.

First, it is important to know that the Firing Range has dummies with Defense Up icons. This is how we can determine how much of an effect Defense Up will have.

The numbers I'm gonna be using for Defense Up calculations are from these two videos. 1 2

The only numbers I will use are for the Splat Roller and Kraken cause all of their damage numbers are shown in both videos. You can use the other weapons' numbers to confirm some of the percentages that will be shown here if you like.

Here is a chart. +# denotes the number of Defense Up icons the dummy has.

Splat Roller
| Defense Up | Damage | % Change (+0) |
|     +0     |  140.0 |   - 0.00%     |
|     +1     |  132.9 |   - 5.07%     |
|     +2     |  127.1 |   - 9.21%     |
|     +3     |  122.5 |   -12.50%     |

Kraken
| Defense Up | Damage | % Change (+0) |
|     +0     |  160.0 |   - 0.00%     |
|     +1     |  151.9 |   - 5.06%     |
|     +2     |  145.2 |   - 9.25%     |
|     +3     |  140.0 |   -12.50%     |

It should be noted that the damage numbers are actually rounded in-game, so it would be difficult to get an accurate percentage in how much it decreases, particularly for +2 Defense Up. I think the +2 Defense Up is closer to a 9.25% damage decrease.

So I think these are the approximate percentages:
+1 Defense Up gives about a 5.07% damage decrease.
+2 Defense Up gives about a 9.24% damage decrease.
+3 Defense Up gives about a 12.5% damage decrease.

And most importantly, I think the Defense Up icons are the equivalent of 1-3 Defense Up as main abilities. So the effect of how much damage they reduce when used as a sub-ability is not known without someone testing it out extensively or data-mining.

Now let's talk about Damage Up.

This video the player going into the Firing Range with a +1 Damage Up ability (it was his main ability on the Clothing gear slot).

He used the Splat Roller and the Kelp Splat Charger (same stats as the normal Splat Charger). Some GIFs:

We know the base damage of those two weapons:
Splat Roller does 140 damage with no Damage Up against an enemy with no Defense Up.
Splat Charger (fully charged) does 160 damage with no Damage Up against an enemy with no Defense Up.

So we can calculate how much of a damage increase Damage Up gives, these are the two numbers I got using both of two weapons' numbers.
Splat Roller: 9.0714%
Splat Charger: 9.0625%

So it can be concluded that +1 Damage Up (as a main ability) increases the damage by about 9.067%. And here comes the interesting part.

It seems the damage reduction for Defense Up scales differently for damage taken with a Damage Up boost. Here's another chart that follows the same format as the previous charts. The numbers with a question mark beside them are numbers I got from using cross multiplication, but I'm pretty sure they are close to the actual number, especially the +1 for the Splat Charger. I included the Splat Roller's damage chart from the above charts so it is easier to compare.

Splat Charger [+1 Damage Up]
| Defense Up | Damage | % Change (+0) |
|     +0     |  174.5 |    - 0.00%    |
|     +1     |  160.0?|    - 8.31%    |
|     +2     |  152.3 |    -12.72%    |
|     +3     | ?????? |               |

Splat Roller [+1 Damage Up]
| Defense Up | Damage | % Change (+0) |
|     +0     | 152.7  |    - 0.00%    |
|     +1     | 140.0  |    - 8.32%    |
|     +2     | 133.3? |    -12.70%    |
|     +3     | ?????? |               |

Splat Roller [No Damage Up]
| Defense Up | Damage | % Change (+0) |
|     +0     |  140.0 |   - 0.00%     |
|     +1     |  132.9 |   - 5.07%     |
|     +2     |  127.1 |   - 9.21%     |
|     +3     |  122.5 |   -12.50%     |

So for +1 Damage Up, I think these are the approximate damage reduction percentages:
+1 Defense Up gives about a 8.32% damage decrease.
+2 Defense Up gives about a 12.72% damage decrease.

It's interesting how +1 Defense Up seems to negate the effect of +1 Damage Up (if both of them are main abilities). Both the Splat Charger and Splat Roller do their base damage when equipped with +1 Damage Up against a +1 Defense Up dummy. I imagine the same thing would occur if both Damage Up and Defense Up had more than 1 equipped or are sub-abilities as long as there is an equal amount of both.

And that's about it, I think.

EDIT: There's more now. :p From this post.

This part is about how +1 Damage Up & +1 Sub-Damage Up (Sub-Damage Up meaning a Damage Up as a sub-ability) affects damage output. Numbers were gotten from here: http://www.twitch.tv/alwaysnintendo/v/5442972?t=22m20s

I only made a gif of the Splatroller (sorry):

Here are the non-defense boosted numbers for the 3 weapons I'm gonna use for this:
Splatterscope 178.4
Splat Roller 156.1
Splatter Shot Pro 140.4

Now to compare that to the base damage of each of those weapons:
Splatterscope 160.0
Splat Roller 140.0
Splatter Shot Pro 125.9?

The question mark indicates that I got the number through math and not by seeing the number. The following makes it seem like it would be close to the actual Splattershot Pro base damage number.
Percentage difference between the base damage and the +1 Damage Up & +1 Sub-Damage Up:
Splatterscope 11.5%
Splat Roller 11.5%
Splattershot Pro 11.5%

The Splattershot Pro percentage isn't a viable data point, but the other two are and it is a percentage with just one actual decimal place, no rounding involved.

So to summarize, it seems having +1 Damage Up & +1 Sub-Damage Up will increase your damage output by 11.5% over having no boosts.

Now to see its effect on Defense Up boosts. Here's a chart of the numbers obtained.

Splattershot Pro [+1 Damage Up & +1 Sub-Damage Up]
| Defense Up | Damage | % Change (+0) |
|  +0  |  140.4 |  - 0.00%  |
|  +1  |  129.0 |  - 8.12%  |
|  +2  |  122.4 |  -12.82%  |
|  +3  |  118.3 |  -15.74%  |

Splatterscope[+1 Damage Up & +1 Sub-Damage Up]
| Defense Up | Damage | % Change (+0) |
|  +0  |  178.4 |  - 0.00%  |
|  +1  |  163.8 |  - 8.18%  |
|  +2  |  155.5 |  -12.84%  |
|  +3  |  150.3?|  -15.75%  |

Splat Roller [+1 Damage Up & +1 Sub-Damage Up]
| Defense Up | Damage | % Change (+0) |
|  +0  |  156.1 |  - 0.00%  |
|  +1  |  143.3 |  - 8.20%  |
|  +2  |  136.0 |  -12.88%  |
|  +3  |  131.5?|  -15.76%  |

Some notes:
- Every dummy possible Defense dummy was hit with the Splattershot Pro, so every number is available for that weapon
- +3 Defense number was gotten through cross multiplication for both the Splat Roller and Splatterscope
- Splatterscope has the same base damage value as the Splat Charger (160)
- Splattershot Pro base damage is approximately 125.9 which I got by doing (140.4/1.115)

I find it interesting how the +1 Defense Up percentage difference for this is greater than the ones found in the +1 Damage Up chart, but the +2 Defense Up percentage difference for this is lower than the one found in +1 Damage Up chart. I thought it would just have been all around lower than the +1 Damage Up chart. It seems that if there is a greater amount of Defense Up there is compared to Damage Up, then the greater the damage reduction will be.

 

[° Moteki]

nice. wish to see how it'd scale as a sub ability than a main.

 

[Figy]

Cool, nice to this stuff before the game comes out.

 

[DaBoss]

nice. wish to see how it'd scale as a sub ability than a main.

You're kind of in luck, cause this stream archive has a ton of Firing Range numbers and the person is using +1 Damage Up and a +1 Sub-Damage Up: http://www.twitch.tv/alwaysnintendo/v/5442972?t=22m20s

I've got these numbers down, just need to use them to calculate stuff and then I'll update the OP.

+1 Damage Up +1 Sub Damage Up

Splatterscope
Base     160
Buffed     178.4
+1 def     163.8
+2 def     155.5

Roller
Base     140
Buffed     156.1
+1 def     143.3
+2 def     136


Splattershot Pro
Base     ????
Buffed     140.4
+1 def     129
+2 def     122.4
+3 def     118.3

 

[° Moteki]

You're kind of in luck, cause this stream archive has a ton of Firing Range numbers and the person is using +1 Damage Up and a +1 Sub-Damage Up: http://www.twitch.tv/alwaysnintendo/v/5442972?t=22m20s

I've got these numbers down, just need to use them to calculate stuff and then I'll update the OP.

+1 Damage Up +1 Sub Damage Up

Splatterscope
Base     160
Buffed     178.4
+1 def     163.8
+2 def     155.5

Roller
Base     140
Buffed     156.1
+1 def     143.3
+2 def     136


Splattershot Pro
Base     ????
Buffed     140.4
+1 def     129
+2 def     122.4
+3 def     118.3p.code]

I thank you kindly DaBoos

 

[Flammie]

So in general, you'd need +8 defence to actually survive a Splat Charger shot? (if possible)
All that delicious defence up stuff doesn't seem so tasty anymore. (although possible against other splattershot type weapons)
I need to revise any possible gear setup again.

 

[DaBoss]

This post is about how +1 Damage Up & +1 Sub-Damage Up (Sub-Damage Up meaning a Damage Up as a sub-ability) affects damage output. Numbers were gotten from here: http://www.twitch.tv/alwaysnintendo/v/5442972?t=22m20s

I only made a gif of the Splatroller (sorry):

Here are the non-defense boosted numbers for the 3 weapons I'm gonna use for this:
Splatterscope 178.4
Splat Roller 156.1
Splatter Shot Pro 140.4

Now to compare that to the base damage of each of those weapons:
Splatterscope 160.0
Splat Roller 140.0
Splatter Shot Pro 125.9?

The question mark indicates that I got the number through math and not by seeing the number. The following makes it seem like it would be close to the actual Splattershot Pro base damage number.
Percentage difference between the base damage and the +1 Damage Up & +1 Sub-Damage Up:
Splatterscope 11.5%
Splat Roller 11.5%
Splattershot Pro 11.5%

The Splattershot Pro percentage isn't a viable data point, but the other two are and it is a percentage with just one actual decimal place, no rounding involved.

So to summarize, it seems having +1 Damage Up & +1 Sub-Damage Up will increase your damage output by 11.5% over having no boosts.

Now to see its effect on Defense Up boosts. Here's a chart of the numbers obtained.

Splattershot Pro [+1 Damage Up & +1 Sub-Damage Up]
| Defense Up | Damage | % Change (+0) |
|     +0     |  140.4 |    - 0.00%    |
|     +1     |  129.0 |    - 8.12%    |
|     +2     |  122.4 |    -12.82%    |
|     +3     |  118.3 |    -15.74%    |

Splatterscope[+1 Damage Up & +1 Sub-Damage Up]
| Defense Up | Damage | % Change (+0) |
|     +0     |  178.4 |    - 0.00%    |
|     +1     |  163.8 |    - 8.18%    |
|     +2     |  155.5 |    -12.84%    |
|     +3     |  150.3?|    -15.75%    |

Splat Roller [+1 Damage Up & +1 Sub-Damage Up]
| Defense Up | Damage | % Change (+0) |
|     +0     |  156.1 |    - 0.00%    |
|     +1     |  143.3 |    - 8.20%    |
|     +2     |  136.0 |    -12.88%    |
|     +3     |  131.5?|    -15.76%    |

Some notes:
- Every dummy possible Defense dummy was hit with the Splattershot Pro, so every number is available for that weapon
- +3 Defense number was gotten through cross multiplication for both the Splat Roller and Splatterscope
- Splatterscope has the same base damage value as the Splat Charger (160)
- Splattershot Pro base damage is approximately 125.9 which I got by doing (140.4/1.115)

I find it interesting how the +1 Defense Up percentage difference for this is greater than the ones found in the +1 Damage Up chart, but the +2 Defense Up percentage difference for this is lower than the one found in +1 Damage Up chart. I thought it would just have been all around lower than the +1 Damage Up chart. It seems that if there is a greater amount of Defense Up there is compared to Damage Up, then the greater the damage reduction will be.

Will add this to the OP as well.

 

[Unknownkid]

Hey Daboss, I need you to test something. Apparently, the Damage Up have a Damage Up cap on weapons. For example, Jet Squidish can only go up to 33 damage. Initially thought you cannot stack abilities but when I went back to my SplatterShot and SplatterShot Jr. they were much stronger than base damage.

I have 2 Main Damage Up and 1 Secondary Damage Up. I wondering if this is a glitch for my Jet gun or this just for balance reasons.

 

[Inari]

Hey Daboss, I need you to test something. Apparently, the Damage Up have a Damage Up cap on weapons. For example, Jet Squidish can only go up to 33 damage. Initially thought you cannot stack abilities but when I went back to my SplatterShot and SplatterShot Jr. they were much stronger than base damage.

I have 2 Main Damage Up and 1 Secondary Damage Up. I wondering if this is a glitch for my Jet gun or this just for balance reasons.

I tested this today. It does appear weapons have damage caps. The Splattershot Jr. caps out at 33.3 dmg, meaning you always need at least 4 shots to kill with it on a clean target. I also tested with the Aerospray MG, which caps out at 24.9 damage, requiring 5 shots to kill on a clean target.

 

[DaBoss]

Hey Daboss, I need you to test something. Apparently, the Damage Up have a Damage Up cap on weapons. For example, Jet Squidish can only go up to 33 damage. Initially thought you cannot stack abilities but when I went back to my SplatterShot and SplatterShot Jr. they were much stronger than base damage.

I have 2 Main Damage Up and 1 Secondary Damage Up. I wondering if this is a glitch for my Jet gun or this just for balance reasons.

I doubt it is a glitch. I think they have caps on stacking abilities depending on what you use.

Like the Bubbler may have a Special Duration Up cap that makes it ineffective to go beyond 1 Special Duration Up, while the Echolocator will probably be able to get the benefits of multiple Special Duration Up with a much more lenient cap.

I don't have a recording device, which would make it easier to test it out, but I'll do some tests for this stuff when I stop playing multiplayer lol. Almost at lvl 20, so I'll end up doing it tomorrow most likely.

EDIT: Well there you have it. Now I want to know about stacking for all kinds of abilities, at least ones we can test it out on.

 

[<π.]

You guys are doing amazing work I can't wait to see what else come out of these.

 

[Death]

I crossed over several gear to see if stacking is an issue, well it's not. At least for damage that is. I've gotten the same results with them. Manage to test 3 offense and 4 offenses and got different results. Whether or not there is a cap beyond that remains to be unseen.

 

[fortytwo]

I tested some stuff and my conclusion is that Damage Up will NEVER result in you needing fewer shots to kill a target (assuming no Defensive Up on the target). To ensure that weapons seem to have a damage cap. Good examples for that are the Aerospray or the Splattshot Jr. (was already mentioned in this thread just tested it myself)

Data for Aerospray:

Attack Up Damage
0 24.5
1 Sub 24.9
2 Sub 24.9
.
.
.
2 Main, 3 Sub 24.9

I tested all the steps in between, the Aerospray will never deal more than 24.9 damage per shot (thats 99.6 Damage after 4 shots)
Splattershot Jr. shows no increase in damage after 2 Main and 2 secondary Ups reaching the max of 33.3 (which results in 99.9 damage after 3 shots but not 100)
Def and Dmg Ups seem to negate each other, so having Dmg Up is only important if the target has Def Up. (Def Up can result in needing more shots to kill a target, so you will need Dmg Up to negate that)

Relation between Sub and Main Up:
Splat Roller (Base damage is 140)
1 Sub Dmg Up --> 144
2 Sub Dmg Up --> 147.9
3 Sub Dmg Up --> 151.5
1 Main Dmg Up --> 152,7

I dont think 2 small Up on the same Gear stack (but i couldnt test that yet. Everything else stacks for sure, having 1 Main and 1 Sub Dmg up on the same piece of clothing works) so we can't test if having 4 Sub Up will result in more damage than 1 Main Up. Since the % bonus seems to go down with every Up i would guess that 4 Sub Up would actually be exactly 1 Main Up.

 

[Unknownkid]

having Dmg Up is only important if the target has Def Up.

Yep! Pretty much this. This is what I figure out. With that being said... Regular Splattershot benefits the most with Dmg Up. 1 Main and 1 Sub makes it shoots do 40.2 plus Bombs do 69. That makes it a 2 shot kill if you hit them with the bomb first.

 

[Szion]

veryhelpful...thank you. I will now stop buying damage up gear to make aerospray more kill friendly x_x

 

[FirestormNeos]

What can we conclude from this? are ATK+/DEF+ worth?

 

[Unknownkid]

What can we conclude from this? are ATK+/DEF+ worth?

ATT+ only use is to counter DEF+ and benefits very few guns (Default Splattershot and .56 for example). Apparently, there is a Damage Up Cap so it will never take you less shoots to kill someone no matter how many Attack Ups you stack. For example, Base Splattershot take 3 hits to kill. Max Att+ will still take 3 shots to kill even though your overall damage is higher.

DEF+ is only useful if you get max defense (3 main DEF UP) as this will make every weapon need an additional shot to kill (except for Jet one I believe). Having one Attack Up make this strategy useless.

So do they have worth? Depends on the metagame. If you fight a lot of .56 users, you can stack Defense Up so that it will take them 3 hits to kill you instead of 2. However, if they have 1 attack up - your setup is useless.

Edit: Overall, I believe Defense has more use since it effect all guns. But since I am Default SplatterShot main. I am better with Attack Up than Defense.