How do rulesets work for competitive shooters?

[JBtheHunter]

People seem to want to derive the rules for Splatoon from Smash, but wouldn't it make more sense to use rules more similar to other shooters? And what are those rules exactly?

 

[Kayeka]

I honestly don't know.

Would love to see tournaments being decided round-robin style, though.

 

[Pusha]

Shooters generally work the same way actually, with a double elimination bracket. Pools are often used for larger tournaments.

 

[Trieste Sp]

I'm actually new to the genre so I honestly don't know.

 

[TheRapture]

People seem to want to derive the rules for Splatoon from Smash, but wouldn't it make more sense to use rules more similar to other shooters? And what are those rules exactly?

It varies from shooter to shooter, of course. Just like for any other genre. But let's be clear that Smash and Splatoon really have very little in common, so it wouldn't make sense to pull anything from Smash.

For other shooters, here's how it works: tournaments establish a number of "gametypes" that can be played during a match. A gametype is a combination of a multiplayer mode and a map. So, for example, Turf War on Saltspray Rig would be considered one gametype.

Then, the organizers essentially plan out which gametypes are played for which game and during which round. So, for example, a gametype list may look a little like this example:

Round 2 (Winners Bracket)
Game 1: Turf War/Saltspray Rig
Game 2: Tower Control/Urchin Underpass
Game 3: Splat Zones/Walleye Warehouse

In this example, two teams are playing a best of 3. These are the gametypes for each game. There's no counterpicking or stage striking like in Smash - everything is laid out beforehand.

Everything else is pretty simple - certain amount of players, they pick their sets, they play their matches using the gametype's win conditions.

 

[Kayeka]

It varies from shooter to shooter, of course. Just like for any other genre. But let's be clear that Smash and Splatoon really have very little in common, so it wouldn't make sense to pull anything from Smash.

For other shooters, here's how it works: tournaments establish a number of "gametypes" that can be played during a match. A gametype is a combination of a multiplayer mode and a map. So, for example, Turf War on Saltspray Rig would be considered one gametype.

Then, the organizers essentially plan out which gametypes are played for which game and during which round. So, for example, a gametype list may look a little like this example:

Round 2 (Winners Bracket)
Game 1: Turf War/Saltspray Rig
Game 2: Tower Control/Urchin Underpass
Game 3: Splat Zones/Walleye Warehouse

In this example, two teams are playing a best of 3. These are the gametypes for each game. There's no counterpicking or stage striking like in Smash - everything is laid out beforehand.

Everything else is pretty simple - certain amount of players, they pick their sets, they play their matches using the gametype's win conditions.

Well, that makes an awful lot of sense. We should definitely take a good look at this. I especially like the way you'd be using different gameplay modes in the same tournament.

 

[TheRapture]

Well, that makes an awful lot of sense. We should definitely take a good look at this. I especially like the way you'd be using different gameplay modes in the same tournament.

Right. The difference is that pretty much all shooters have really customizable private lobbies that allow for different gametypes and modifying the rules for those gametypes. We're not sure how it'll pan out for Splatoon, and we still have to wait three months for private games.

 

[Agosta44]

You would be better off deriving from the MK scene than Smash or shooters since most matches will be one-offs outside of leagues.

Challenge team and ask for what game mode/s you want to play
No stage striking
Play set (FT5, BO5, BO7, etc)

Quick and easy. Tournament rules would differ slightly depending on what structure is chosen.

 

[TheRapture]

You would be better off deriving from the MK scene than Smash or shooters since most matches will be one-offs outside of leagues.

Challenge team and ask for what game mode/s you want to play
No stage striking
Play set (FT5, BO5, BO7, etc)

Quick and easy. Tournament rules would differ slightly depending on what structure is chosen.

This would be for just general competition, but obviously not for an actual tournament. Implementing what other shooting games do for their events would suffice.

 

[Kayeka]

You would be better off deriving from the MK scene than Smash or shooters since most matches will be one-offs outside of leagues.

Challenge team and ask for what game mode/s you want to play
No stage striking
Play set (FT5, BO5, BO7, etc)

Quick and easy. Tournament rules would differ slightly depending on what structure is chosen.

That's more of a league setup than a tournament, innit? Would be fun to operate from the forum, but you want the occasional tournament in as well.

EDIT:aaaaand that's what I get for not paying attention to messages posted while I was typing.

 

[Agosta44]

This would be for just general competition, but obviously not for an actual tournament. Implementing what other shooting games do for their events would suffice.

Of course, but I was responding to the question of rulesets for competitive shooters, not for tournaments. Setting the baseline for rules would be more important than focusing on larger scaled tournaments or leagues.

We still do not yet know how competitively viable the other game modes are yet so we can't just copy-paste what other shooters do. For example Splat Zones look extremely fast and hectic as compared to some other KOTH modes in other games. It may not be that good of a mode to play. We won't know until it's released. I can guarantee that this game will be more active online than offline so we can't just assume that MLG game rotation will work or be wanted.

 

[TheRapture]

Of course, but I was responding to the question of rulesets for competitive shooters, not for tournaments. Setting the baseline for rules would be more important than focusing on larger scaled tournaments or leagues.

We still do not yet know how competitively viable the other game modes are yet so we can't just copy-paste what other shooters do. For example Splat Zones look extremely fast and hectic as compared to some other KOTH modes in other games. It may not be that good of a mode to play. We won't know until it's released. I can guarantee that this game will be more active online than offline so we can't just assume that MLG game rotation will work or be wanted.

Yeah but just discussed a process of getting a match together. That's not a ruleset. A ruleset transcends the events. The ruleset would involve what gametypes are to be played, what's allowed and what isn't, what a set should consist of, etc. That has nothing to do with whether or not its an actual tournament, just a scrim, an online league, or whatever.

Right now, there's no reason to assume Splat Zones wouldn't work. A faster KOTH is likely better gameplay-wise and from a spectator's point of view, especially considering you can't really lock down the hill like you can in other games.

The rotation was just an added example of how it could work in tournaments. It was really more to emphasis the gametypes.

 

[Agosta44]

Yeah but just discussed a process of getting a match together. That's not a ruleset. A ruleset transcends the events. The ruleset would involve what gametypes are to be played, what's allowed and what isn't, what a set should consist of, etc. That has nothing to do with whether or not its an actual tournament, just a scrim, an online league, or whatever.

Right now, there's no reason to assume Splat Zones wouldn't work. A faster KOTH is likely better gameplay-wise and from a spectator's point of view, especially considering you can't really lock down the hill like you can in other games.

The rotation was just an added example of how it could work in tournaments. It was really more to emphasis the gametypes.

We're not at a stage where it's possible to create more rules than what's already imposed by the game. I know quite a bit about rulesets. Myself and another person wrote the standard ruleset as well as league ruleset for MK8 which can be found below:

Spoiler

http://mkboards.com/forums/threads/mku-ruleset-updated-january-26-2015.6600/

We're not at a stage where we can say x weapon is too powerful or x stage is glitched in y way etc, and I personally see no reason for stage striking. Depending on how the room is set up, let it be lottery like Mario Kart or host picks stage, stages will either be by random choice or loser picks. Like I mentioned earlier, it's still too early as we don't have the game, and have 3 months until we can even start structured team play.

 

[TheRapture]

We're not at a stage where it's possible to create more rules than what's already imposed by the game. I know quite a bit about rulesets. Myself and another person wrote the standard ruleset as well as league ruleset for MK8 which can be found below:

Spoiler

http://mkboards.com/forums/threads/mku-ruleset-updated-january-26-2015.6600/

We're not at a stage where we can say x weapon is too powerful or x stage is glitched in y way etc, and I personally see no reason for stage striking. Depending on how the room is set up, let it be lottery like Mario Kart or host picks stage, stages will either be by random choice or loser picks. Like I mentioned earlier, it's still too early as we don't have the game, and have 3 months until we can even start structured team play.

Nobody is discussing bans right now (game likely won't have any). Likely, things will just be played out of the box, especially since you may not even be able to customize much in private matches.

But I don't see much point in modeling things after Mario Kart just because everyone plays Mario Kart.

 

[Agosta44]

Nobody is discussing bans right now (game likely won't have any). Likely, things will just be played out of the box, especially since you may not even be able to customize much in private matches.

But I don't see much point in modeling things after Mario Kart just because everyone plays Mario Kart.

I don't see much point in modelling after Smash or FPS' either, which is why I had posted in this thread.

 

[TheRapture]

I don't see much point in modelling after Smash or FPS' either, which is why I had posted in this thread.

But why not? Why model after games from completely different genres?

 

[Agosta44]

But why not? Why model after games from completely different genres?

First, I'm not sure what you're saying in your post as I said I don't see a point in modelling after those games, and your posts sounds like you're agreeing with me. I'll assume it's a typo and continue with my post.

This is what I had listed as a model from the competitive MK scene:

Challenge team and ask for what game mode/s you want to play
No stage striking
Play set (FT5, BO5, BO7, etc)

It's short, sweet, and to the point. There's no limits in stage choice, and doesn't force you to play every mode by default. Online play will be dominant for this game as opposed to real life competition (majority of smash scene is 1vs1 and requires only 1 setup, COD and other FPS' are funded and sponsored), so the competitive scene will have to be structured to support that.

 

[TheRapture]

It's short, sweet, and to the point. There's no limits in stage choice, and doesn't force you to play every mode by default. Online play will be dominant for this game as opposed to real life competition (majority of smash scene is 1vs1 and requires only 1 setup, COD and other FPS' are funded and sponsored), so the competitive scene will have to be structured to support that.

I'm not really understanding where you're going with this. No one is forced to play every mode by default. And again, online play of offline play has little to do with this. It's irrelevant. And not every FPS is "funded and sponsored." I mean, if we're going to be specific, Splatoon is a third-person shooter like Gears of War, which isn't funded or sponsored at all.

I think we're mixing up some definitions here. It just seems you're discussing how you'd get a friendly match together with other people. That has little to do with a competitive ruleset. Players will use whatever Splatoon offers or assume the competitive ruleset used in tournaments.

 

[Draayder]

First, I'm not sure what you're saying in your post as I said I don't see a point in modelling after those games, and your posts sounds like you're agreeing with me. I'll assume it's a typo and continue with my post.

This is what I had listed as a model from the competitive MK scene:



It's short, sweet, and to the point. There's no limits in stage choice, and doesn't force you to play every mode by default. Online play will be dominant for this game as opposed to real life competition (majority of smash scene is 1vs1 and requires only 1 setup, COD and other FPS' are funded and sponsored), so the competitive scene will have to be structured to support that.

I believe they're saying they don't understand why you'd model Splatoon's competitive scene off of MK's when MK is a completely different genre than Splatoon (racing game vs third person shooter). Competitive shooters would be a closer comparison since it's only a jump from first to third person rather than going completely across genre lines.

 

[TheRapture]

I believe they're saying they don't understand why you'd model Splatoon's competitive scene off of MK's when MK is a completely different genre than Splatoon (racing game vs third person shooter). Competitive shooters would be a closer comparison since it's only a jump from first to third person rather than going completely across genre lines.

That's what I'm getting at. I'm not sure why Mario Kart is in the discussion at all right now.