Is "Damage Up" Becoming Pointless?

[Isan]

Prior to Update 2.2.0, Damage Up could do the following things (If I left something out or something's wrong please let me know so I can update it):

• Counter the multiplier set up by the "Defense Up" skill
• Decrease the charge time needed for a charger to splat an inkling.
• Increase the splash damage (and decreases needed minimum INDIRECT shots) of certain main and sub weapons (i.e. blasters, burst bombs)

However, the "Damage Up" skill does not decrease the minimum amount of DIRECT bullets or shots needed to splat an enemy.
EDIT: It can reduce the minimum amount of direct shots by some faster firing weapons, such as the Splattershot and some of the Squelcher series.
Similarly, the "Defense Up" skill does not increase the minimum needed direct shots either.
EDIT: The above edit also applies here, requiring more minimum shots from some weapons.

However, the effect seems rather minimal to me, as opposed to the more obvious effects of skills such as the "Speed Up" and "Ink Saver" skills.
Now, as of 2.2.0, the blaster weapon group has been nerfed so that even with three main slots with the "Damage Up" skill, a single indirect (splash damage) shot from a blaster cannot kill an enemy in one shot.

I'm not arguing the justifiability of the nerf; I actually agree with it, even as an S rank Luna Blaster main. I do feel, however, that these recent changes- coupled with any more future nerf updates along with the previous nerfs- are causing the "Damage Up" and (to a lesser extent) "Defense Up" skills to become less and less useful outside of general combat and more situational (using a charger, defending from burst bombs, etc.) Is there another use for them that I am missing, or is it possible that these skills should be limited to people using "Damage Up" for weapons such as chargers and burst bombs (good for the E-Liter, I guess), or to counter the aforementioned by way of "Defense Up?"

 

[Ber]

if the oponent has some previous damage from a sub weapon, one of your team members or even stepping on your ink, damage up can mean fewer shots for the splat, with two Damage Ups and the standing on ink damage I've gotten lots of seemingly one hit splats with the Rapid Blaster for example, it's pretty situational but it is one more thing Damage Up can help you do.

 

[Scones]

I'm pretty sure can increase the number of direct hits some weapons like the Splattershot and Gals needed to splat. Might effect the Splashomatic as well but I forget all of the ones it can help with. Even so, some amount of could be the difference between 2 near miss blaster shots and 3. Same goes for the new rollers. I think I saw the edges doing ~50 damage in a video. If that is true could help you against roller misses as well.
Basically the old notion that counters will still be in play.

For a more specific example, might be great on the standard Splattershot once the patch hits. It seems like bomb rush can throw bombs faster now and burst bombs are really scary with this skill.

 

[Isan]

if the oponent has some previous damage from a sub weapon, one of your team members or even stepping on your ink, damage up can mean fewer shots for the splat, with two Damage Ups and the standing on ink damage I've gotten lots of seemingly one hit splats with the Rapid Blaster for example, it's pretty situational but it is one more thing Damage Up can help you do.

Well yeah it's good with the blaster class, but 2.2.0 gets rid of that possibility. With the rapid blaster, direct or indirect, it will now always require a minimum of two hits, regardless of upgrades. The patch prevents the initial shot from going above 99.9 damage (as seen here: http://kotaku.com/nintendo-is-nerfing-a-bunch-of-splatoon-weapons-1736887494) meaning no splat. So with blaster bonuses out of the picture, doesn't it become much more situational than it already was?

I'm pretty sure can increase the number of direct hits some weapons like the Splattershot and Gals needed to splat. Might effect the Splashomatic as well but I forget all of the ones it can help with. Even so, some amount of could be the difference between 2 near miss blaster shots and 3. Same goes for the new rollers. I think I saw the edges doing ~50 damage in a video. If that is true could help you against roller misses as well.
Basically the old notion that counters will still be in play.

For a more specific example, might be great on the standard Splattershot once the patch hits. It seems like bomb rush can throw bombs faster now and burst bombs are really scary with this skill.

I don't think "Defense Up" increases any weapons' needed minimum shot count. I don't have any definite proof, but I've never seen it in practice.

 

[MasterYoshidino]

Weapons with Burst Bombs aren't affected when it comes to how accurate one has to be to splat with the subs. This is really obvious with the basic Splattershot which relies on it a lot for zoning and splatting. More damage up = easier to splat and also counters defense up stackers that attempt to turn 3 hit splat to 4.

 

[SquiliamTentacles]

Well yeah it's good with the blaster class, but 2.2.0 gets rid of that possibility. With the rapid blaster, direct or indirect, it will now always require a minimum of two hits, regardless of upgrades. The patch prevents the initial shot from going above 99.9 damage (as seen here: http://kotaku.com/nintendo-is-nerfing-a-bunch-of-splatoon-weapons-1736887494) meaning no splat. So with blaster bonuses out of the picture, doesn't it become much more situational than it already was?

The rapid blaster already always required two shots, so it is not a big deal for it. Still great in turning 3HKO's into 2HKO's, 4HKO's into 3HKO's, and one shotting enemies who stepped in ink. Really good for the Deco as it also increases the power of burst bombs.

For the rest, a bit of damage up can make all the edges do at least enough damage to two shot, but it will not be nearly as good as it was. Still, works well with Rollers, Chargers, Burst Bombs, etc, so I don't think it will be useless soon.

 

[LMG]

I don't think "Defense Up" increases any weapons' needed minimum shot count. I don't have any definite proof, but I've never seen it in practice.

It can, but it varies from weapon to weapon. Some weapons have noticeable effects (like the .52 Gal, which requires an extra shot when facing just one main Defense Up), while others have neglible effects (like the Dual Squelcher, which requires an extra shot when facing at least three main Defense Ups) and then there's others that literally are unaffected (like the Jet Squelcher, which always requires 4 shots to splat). Since most weapons that have a noticeable effect fire relatively fast, it's hard to see it in an actual match when there's 8 Inklings shooting all over the place

 

[Smoothshake317]

Well yeah it's good with the blaster class, but 2.2.0 gets rid of that possibility. With the rapid blaster, direct or indirect, it will now always require a minimum of two hits, regardless of upgrades. The patch prevents the initial shot from going above 99.9 damage (as seen here: http://kotaku.com/nintendo-is-nerfing-a-bunch-of-splatoon-weapons-1736887494) meaning no splat. So with blaster bonuses out of the picture, doesn't it become much more situational than it already was?

Squid, you have much to learn. Defense up can affect the number of splats needed to kill and opponent. You want solid proof? Go to the testing area and pick up a splattershot, go the the room with the large balloons and shoot the balloons with pluses on them. Shoot the ones with one plus, then two pluses until they explode. Now make this observation again with .52 Gal. Now reflect on how important the raw damage is to these weapons and how the update will (by my calculations) make the splattershot suffer the same fate as .52 Gal. Now take the blaster and make sure you hit these targets with only the outer rim of your explosion. Now reflect on how a 3-shot indirect kill can seriously hamper the potential of a blaster. Do not come back to this thread until you understand the lesson that I am trying to help you understand.

People tend to be visual learners. This is why I want you to do this.

Oh, and if you were a blaster main like me, you would understand why we really don't care about the nerf.

 

[Isan]

Squid, you have much to learn. Defense up can affect the number of splats needed to kill and opponent. You want solid proof? Go to the testing area and pick up a splattershot, go the the room with the large balloons and shoot the balloons with pluses on them. Shoot the ones with one plus, then two pluses until they explode. Now make this observation again with .52 Gal. Now reflect on how important the raw damage is to these weapons and how the update will (by my calculations) make the splattershot suffer the same fate as .52 Gal. Now take the blaster and make sure you hit these targets with only the outer rim of your explosion. Now reflect on how a 3-shot indirect kill can seriously hamper the potential of a blaster. Do not come back to this thread until you understand the lesson that I am trying to help you understand.

People tend to be visual learners. This is why I want you to do this.

Well I appreciate the sentiment, but the whole reason I started this thread was to get advice from people that know more about the "Damage Up" and "Defense Up" skills than I do. I also already know the blaster's splash damage is less than fantastic against oppenents with "Defense Up" main skills, thank you. Thanks to you and some others, I now know that it can affect the direct shot count of a few other weapons as well. However, I don't think leaving a thread I started for the sole purpose of gaining the knowledge I lacked is that great of an idea.

Oh, and if you were a blaster main like me, you would understand why we really don't care about the nerf.

Well, contrary to your assumption, I don't. Sorry about that. I've never used "Damage Up," as I prefer skills such as "Tenacity" and "Quick Respawn," along with the "Ink Saver," "Special Duration" & "Recharge" skills. So please, by all means, as I had suggested in the main post, Clue me in.

So I tried out the recommended weapons on the dummies that have "Defense Up" equipped, and noticed the effect; It still seemed rather minimal. I realize even one bullet can make the difference in many situations, but does that effect outweigh all the other possible skills? As I see it now, it should depend on the weapon you choose to use at that time. I think for some weapons, "Ink Saver Main" or a form of the two possible "Speed Up" skills would fit better. I still think "Damage Up" is rather lackluster on blaster weapons, even with the effect on its splash damage.

 

[GreenSpiny]

So I tried out the recommended weapons on the dummies that have "Defense Up" equipped, and noticed the effect; It still seemed rather minimal. I realize even one bullet can make the difference in many situations, but does that effect outweigh all the other possible skills? As I see it now, it should depend on the weapon you choose to use at that time. I think for some weapons, "Ink Saver Main" or a form of the two possible "Speed Up" skills would fit better. I still think "Damage Up" is rather lackluster on blaster weapons, even with the effect on its splash damage.

You're correct, the usefulness depends on the weapon. I doubt the .96 gal needs any. Conversely, I find some damage up useful on the Heavy Splatling, even if it still takes four hits to splat. I need to guarantee four hits will do it, and maybe even three with prior damage. All depends on the situation, but surviving by the skin of your teeth thanks to abilities does happen (just hard to measure).

Another test I would suggest to go into training with rollers (esp. dynamo). Try splatting the dummies from different distances. Any time you see 100 - 105 damage, defense ups would have given the enemy a few seconds to react. Mess around with burst bombs and damage up too.

 

[dapperlace]

As someone who uses a .52 Gal deco, I have to say just one defense up can really mess me up. I once had a few matches in a row where I ended up against another .52 Gal deco, the only reason we took each-other out instead of me getting taken out was because I either got my first shot in early, or because my opponent had bad aim.

I feel like both skills have always been dependent on situation, but they still have their uses.

 

[Smoothshake317]

So I tried out the recommended weapons on the dummies that have "Defense Up" equipped, and noticed the effect; It still seemed rather minimal. I realize even one bullet can make the difference in many situations, but does that effect outweigh all the other possible skills? As I see it now, it should depend on the weapon you choose to use at that time. I think for some weapons, "Ink Saver Main" or a form of the two possible "Speed Up" skills would fit better. I still think "Damage Up" is rather lackluster on blaster weapons, even with the effect on its splash damage.

The reason that blaster mains highly recommend damage up is because it helps to ensure that you get your kill in the desired 2 hit indirect kills. It is the same reason for the blasters as is for all of the other weapons: Kill Assurance. The last thing a blaster user wants to do is have their second shot not kill their target because of either defense up or them running in squid (which can heal at a quick rate). This is because of their lack luster fire rate and shot speed, with the first being only 1 shot every 50/60 frames a second (for the normal blaster) and a shot speed that is less than half that of a shooter bullet. From months of personal experience with the weapons, Ink Saver Main and Damage Up are the only skills you really need for blasters.

 

[PK21]

Don't really know where else to post this, but I saw an Inkbrush with 3 Damage Up mains and almost all of their subs were Damage Up. I main the Inkbrush and can't think of a single reason why anyone would do that...
Also I feel like Damage Up is pointless because almost nobody uses Defense Up. Even though it helps chargers and the like, why would anybody even CONSIDER using it on an Inkbrush?
/rant

 

[Blue24]

Squelchers, Splattershot Pro, and a few others, benefit from damage up by allowig them to kill more effectivily at the end of thier range where the ink falls. Most weapons that have burst bombs can benefit from damage up. so its still good.

Don't really know where else to post this, but I saw an Inkbrush with 3 Damage Up mains and almost all of their subs were Damage Up. I main the Inkbrush and can't think of a single reason why anyone would do that...
Also I feel like Damage Up is pointless because almost nobody uses Defense Up. Even though it helps chargers and the like, why would anybody even CONSIDER using it on an Inkbrush?
/rant

Do you not have japanese players in your lobby. I have seen them run multiples of it. And Damage up is not pointless and is not dependent on people runnng def up. This is shown in above posts and mine. As for your brush, def up does affect it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nYExium9qeELagu3mF6AjoU4g/edit#gid=1798957197

 

[PK21]

Do you not have japanese players in your lobby. I have seen them run multiples of it. And Damage up is not pointless and is not dependent on people runnng def up. This is shown in above posts and mine. As for your brush, def up does affect it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nYExium9qeELagu3mF6AjoU4g/edit#gid=1798957197

I just said I know it helps Chargers, Blasters, Rollers, etc.
Also Defense Up affects the Inkbrush if the opponent has 3 Defense Ups. And like I said, nobody uses Defense Up because they're too busy stuffing themself full of Damage Up when they could have other things that would help a lot more (COUGH INK SAVER OR INK RECOVERY OR SWIM SPEED COUGH).
So it basically is pointless on an Inkbrush unless more people start shoving Defense Up onto all of their ability slots.

 

[Isan]

The reason that blaster mains highly recommend damage up is because it helps to ensure that you get your kill in the desired 2 hit indirect kills. It is the same reason for the blasters as is for all of the other weapons: Kill Assurance. The last thing a blaster user wants to do is have their second shot not kill their target because of either defense up or them running in squid (which can heal at a quick rate). This is because of their lack luster fire rate and shot speed, with the first being only 1 shot every 50/60 frames a second (for the normal blaster) and a shot speed that is less than half that of a shooter bullet. From months of personal experience with the weapons, Ink Saver Main and Damage Up are the only skills you really need for blasters.

Well then I'm not too far from the norm, since I use Ink Saver. I tried using Damage Up with the Luna last night, but Tower Control Bluefin Depot kicked my *** and sent me back down to A+. I've always sucked at Bluefin though, so I'll try it again another day. (I don't think I'll ever replace my beanie with Tenacity and three Quick Respawns though, it seems to work great no matter what weapon I use).

 

[1o2]

Don't really know where else to post this, but I saw an Inkbrush with 3 Damage Up mains and almost all of their subs were Damage Up. I main the Inkbrush and can't think of a single reason why anyone would do that...
Also I feel like Damage Up is pointless because almost nobody uses Defense Up. Even though it helps chargers and the like, why would anybody even CONSIDER using it on an Inkbrush?
/rant

Inkbrush is RNG BOIS. Damage up helps lessen the effect of RNG when swinging (slashes have varying damages depending on what ink hits you), or at least this is the case for the Octobrush.

Damage up overall still is viable on Blasters, as hits can still go up to 70 damage, or 80 damage, allowing for your team mates only having to land one bullet to get the kill. Plus as others have said, it could make the 3hko to a 2hko. Anyone using burst bombs still greatly benefits from damage up as well. Jet Squelcher benefits from one damage up, as I think it makes their bullets do 33.3, allowing for you to get a 3hko if they have at least .01 worth of damage. Splattershot Pro benefits a little bit, but you shouldn't really be trying to kill enemies at the your maximum range anyway.

 

[PK21]

Damage up helps lessen the effect of RNG when swinging (slashes have varying damages depending on what ink hits you), or at least this is the case for the Octobrush.

or at least this is the case for the Octobrush.

the Octobrush.

That's great to know, but I wasn't talking about the Octobrush.

 

[1o2]

That's great to know, but I wasn't talking about the Octobrush.

I'm aware, but I was assuming that the player had probably thought the inkbrush with damage up works the same as it does for the octobrush. I have no clue if the damage up applies the same.

 

[iiGGYxD]

The reason that blaster mains highly recommend damage up is because it helps to ensure that you get your kill in the desired 2 hit indirect kills. It is the same reason for the blasters as is for all of the other weapons: Kill Assurance. The last thing a blaster user wants to do is have their second shot not kill their target because of either defense up or them running in squid (which can heal at a quick rate). This is because of their lack luster fire rate and shot speed, with the first being only 1 shot every 50/60 frames a second (for the normal blaster) and a shot speed that is less than half that of a shooter bullet. From months of personal experience with the weapons, Ink Saver Main and Damage Up are the only skills you really need for blasters.

I'd actually recommend you invest in swim speed or respawn over ink saver main. Im curious actually as to why you would even have this on a blaster build when their shots take up hardly any ink. This is coming from a Luna blaster main btw.

As far as damage up goes, it is usable now still but not as necessary as it was pre-patch. I like this as it opens up more ability sets for blasters. I've made the switch over to maxing out respawn and swim speed and I am still hitting 2hko and 1hko just fine.