MAP REWORKS

[Terret]

Heya! About the project I’m doing for kit and balance overhaul, we’re editing maps too! We basically finished Undertow but any other stages you want reworked, give ideas for it! :)

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

We basically finished Undertow

You thought.
(sorry, i couldn't resist)

Since most of the people reading this thread probably haven't seen the rework yet, we added an inkrail, a bounce pad, and two blocks, so that you can get over the glass both directions. Here are all four of them, from two perspectives, so I don't have to figure out how to describe the locations.


I do like the changes in theory (although I do have an idea for another flank that I'll probably get to later) but there are a couple unintended movement options that I don't think are beneficial.

The first and more obviously bad one is that it's possible to paint the top of this block and jump to on top of the wall. It was hard at first, but once I realized it was better to jump from the middle of the block instead of the very corner, it only took 10 minutes for me to get around 80% consistent.


And since there appears to be an image limit I'll go ahead and put the other unintended thing, and then I'll talk about why I don't like them and how they could be fixed in the next post.

It's possible to jump from the ground here and swim directly up the side of the block without climbing on the little uninkable thing they added, because the edge sticks out a little bit. You have to be directly up against the wall for it to work but with a little practice it's not hard to do without slowing down.

 

[Terret]

You thought.
(sorry, i couldn't resist)

All good lmao

Since most of the people reading this thread probably haven't seen the rework yet, we added an inkrail, a bounce pad, and two blocks, so that you can get over the glass both directions. Here are all four of them, from two perspectives, so I don't have to figure out how to describe the locations.
View attachment 11248View attachment 11249

I do like the changes in theory (although I do have an idea for another flank that I'll probably get to later) but there are a couple unintended movement options that I don't think are beneficial.

The first and more obviously bad one is that it's possible to paint the top of this block and jump to on top of the wall. It was hard at first, but once I realized it was better to jump from the middle of the block instead of the very corner, it only took 10 minutes for me to get around 80% consistent.
View attachment 11251

This one can definitely be considered a potential problem. I do think there should be some testing to see if it’s broken, which it definitely would if you could right side peek. Because it’s left side peek though, I’m not 100% sure how problematic this could result to be.

And since there appears to be an image limit I'll go ahead and put the other unintended thing, and then I'll talk about why I don't like them and how they could be fixed in the next post.

It's possible to jump from the ground here and swim directly up the side of the block without climbing on the little uninkable thing they added, because the edge sticks out a little bit. You have to be directly up against the wall for it to work but with a little practice it's not hard to do without slowing down.
View attachment 11254

This while strong, I think is fine. There should be a semblance of restriction on some potential routes but this one imo isn’t really problematic. Again, testing would have to be done to see how strong this could be, but this feels more like an optimization than an issue

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

It's possible to jump from the ground here and swim directly up the side of the block without climbing on the little uninkable thing they added, because the edge sticks out a little bit. You have to be directly up against the wall for it to work but with a little practice it's not hard to do without slowing down.
View attachment 11254

Although this does make it easier to traverse, the only actual effect this would have is making the flank (red line) less risky, since that's the only thing that would actually be made faster. Here's what I mean.

It's already a very fast flank due to the bounce pad, so making it less risky is not a good change, and fixing it wouldn't make it slower for anyone else.

As for how it would be fixed, it's pretty simple; just move the block to the right slightly so that it doesn't hang over the edge. (and move the block in the back as well, so they still line up)

The first and more obviously bad one is that it's possible to paint the top of this block and jump to on top of the wall. It was hard at first, but once I realized it was better to jump from the middle of the block instead of the very corner, it only took 10 minutes for me to get around 80% consistent.
View attachment 11251

I didn't say this before, but this is only possible in clam blitz and zones, because the other modes don't have the glass area at all. I don't remember if it's there on turf but we kind of forgot to do anything to turf anyway.

This route makes the flank even faster than it already is, and also much, much less risky. There is no going around anymore; you don't have to get behind the backline at all. You can just run at its face, because one of its best pieces of cover is now a ledge that it's on the wrong side of.

Not to mention that if the top of the wall is accessible, the backline itself could use it, and that makes it able to see pretty much all of mid, which is completely broken. Plus, it could easily splat anyone trying to use the bounce pad, so there would be essentially no flank at all.

The most consistent way to do it has you landing at the very right side of the wall, but I've landed as far out as here.


This one is more complicated to fix though, because there are several ways we could do it. Here's another diagram so I can talk about locations.


The most obvious fix would be to add a 1x1 or 1x2 uninkable in the red box. This would work, but the blocks are much thicker than the wall (unless there's a smaller size of block that I don't know about) and it would look pretty out of place. I think a better solution would be to make the green box uninkable. This doesn't make the blocks more difficult to traverse (you would already pretty much only use the right side) but it would make the jump impossible because you can't swim. It would also look a lot nicer. If we wanted to make the flank a little easier to punish, we could also replace the green and blue boxes with a 1x2 uninkable. The flank is already very fast, so giving it higher risk is a good thing. This would make it more vulnerable to being splatted to people coming from the inkrail, for example, since the flanker would have to squid roll or surge off of the block to get up. I think this is perfectly fair since again, it's really fast, but I can see why replacing just the green box could potentially be better.

 

[Terret]

Although this does make it easier to traverse, the only actual effect this would have is making the flank (red line) less risky, since that's the only thing that would actually be made faster. Here's what I mean.
View attachment 11255View attachment 11256
It's already a very fast flank due to the bounce pad, so making it less risky is not a good change, and fixing it wouldn't make it slower for anyone else.

As for how it would be fixed, it's pretty simple; just move the block to the right slightly so that it doesn't hang over the edge. (and move the block in the back as well, so they still line up)


I didn't say this before, but this is only possible in clam blitz and zones, because the other modes don't have the glass area at all. I don't remember if it's there on turf but we kind of forgot to do anything to turf anyway.

This route makes the flank even faster than it already is, and also much, much less risky. There is no going around anymore; you don't have to get behind the backline at all. You can just run at its face, because one of its best pieces of cover is now a ledge that it's on the wrong side of.

Not to mention that if the top of the wall is accessible, the backline itself could use it, and that makes it able to see pretty much all of mid, which is completely broken. Plus, it could easily splat anyone trying to use the bounce pad, so there would be essentially no flank at all.

The most consistent way to do it has you landing at the very right side of the wall, but I've landed as far out as here.
View attachment 11257

This one is more complicated to fix though, because there are several ways we could do it. Here's another diagram so I can talk about locations.
View attachment 11262

The most obvious fix would be to add a 1x1 or 1x2 uninkable in the red box. This would work, but the blocks are much thicker than the wall (unless there's a smaller size of block that I don't know about) and it would look pretty out of place. I think a better solution would be to make the green box uninkable. This doesn't make the blocks more difficult to traverse (you would already pretty much only use the right side) but it would make the jump impossible because you can't swim. It would also look a lot nicer. If we wanted to make the flank a little easier to punish, we could also replace the green and blue boxes with a 1x2 uninkable. The flank is already very fast, so giving it higher risk is a good thing. This would make it more vulnerable to being splatted to people coming from the inkrail, for example, since the flanker would have to squid roll or surge off of the block to get up. I think this is perfectly fair since again, it's really fast, but I can see why replacing just the green box could potentially be better.

Actually, a good way to solve both of these problems is by making that route a squid surge spot. That way, entering it is a bit more predictable so a backline could see it coming. And because this route is two way and likely will have two people running into each other, I’m actually okay with the way the other block is. Such a retreat while strong is far from free because while going back to the bounce pad you are still dropping pretty far down, which slows the route down a LOT

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Actually, a good way to solve both of these problems is by making that route a squid surge spot. That way, entering it is a bit more predictable so a backline could see it coming.

Which spot specifically do you mean?

And because this route is two way and likely will have two people running into each other, I’m actually okay with the way the other block is. Such a retreat while strong is far from free because while going back to the bounce pad you are still dropping pretty far down, which slows the route down a LOT

Yes, but once you're on the other side of the wall you're a lot safer, even if you do have to drop down to the uninkable ledge. I think keeping it as a higher risk/reward route makes more sense, because we can't really reduce the reward, so we should increase the risk to match.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Here's another diagram so I can talk about locations.
View attachment 11262

The most obvious fix would be to add a 1x1 or 1x2 uninkable in the red box. This would work, but the blocks are much thicker than the wall (unless there's a smaller size of block that I don't know about) and it would look pretty out of place. I think a better solution would be to make the green box uninkable. This doesn't make the blocks more difficult to traverse (you would already pretty much only use the right side) but it would make the jump impossible because you can't swim. It would also look a lot nicer. If we wanted to make the flank a little easier to punish, we could also replace the green and blue boxes with a 1x2 uninkable. The flank is already very fast, so giving it higher risk is a good thing. This would make it more vulnerable to being splatted to people coming from the inkrail, for example, since the flanker would have to squid roll or surge off of the block to get up. I think this is perfectly fair since again, it's really fast, but I can see why replacing just the green box could potentially be better.

For rm and tc, the jump isn't an issue, so I actually think it would be good to put an inkable 1x1 block in the purple square, since the higher bounce pad in those modes would let you land directly on said block. This would make the flank faster, and I think it being faster is a good thing because the objective generally goes to the left in those modes, so the flank is more out of the way. So having it be faster is good.

 

[DzNutsKong]

Mincemeat has always seemed to need such simple changes to become much better. Made me sad that Nintendo's rework didn't really address the problem at all.

To keep it simple, the block circled in red should be removed or maybe replaced with a smaller block both teams can go around so there's still cover there and the walls circled in yellow should be paintable. Now you can actually move on the map! Wow!

I imagine with this the left route would be a lot easier to push through. You'd mostly just need to take that platform between the two grate bridges away from the enemies. If you managed to get a guy back there then that'd seriously mess with the enemy team since you'd either need to put a frontline on that platform or you'd need any backlines you have on snipe to watch to their far right on top of just looking at mid regularly. Pushing right would probably be harder since that's where their backline is most likely to see you and you won't reasonably be able to reach it at all without specials, but if you manage to get there then it won't be too difficult to get behind the enemy team entirely.

I dunno, seems like a fun bunch of changes to me.

 

[Terret]

Which spot specifically do you mean?


Yes, but once you're on the other side of the wall you're a lot safer, even if you do have to drop down to the uninkable ledge. I think keeping it as a higher risk/reward route makes more sense, because we can't really reduce the reward, so we should increase the risk to match.

The picture that you showed. There being a green and blue square that you were thinking to be uninkable. Makes the route just a bit more predictable for the backline since they’re clearly shown before it as they have to surge up. And that slowdown would add risk to the route and fix the problem with reaching the wall

 

[Madman46i]

Mincemeat has always seemed to need such simple changes to become much better. Made me sad that Nintendo's rework didn't really address the problem at all.

View attachment 11264

To keep it simple, the block circled in red should be removed or maybe replaced with a smaller block both teams can go around so there's still cover there and the walls circled in yellow should be paintable. Now you can actually move on the map! Wow!

I imagine with this the left route would be a lot easier to push through. You'd mostly just need to take that platform between the two grate bridges away from the enemies. If you managed to get a guy back there then that'd seriously mess with the enemy team since you'd either need to put a frontline on that platform or you'd need any backlines you have on snipe to watch to their far right on top of just looking at mid regularly. Pushing right would probably be harder since that's where their backline is most likely to see you and you won't reasonably be able to reach it at all without specials, but if you manage to get there then it won't be too difficult to get behind the enemy team entirely.

I dunno, seems like a fun bunch of changes to me.

I feel like mincemeat does have a problem of getting on the enemy plat, but another problem that wasnt addressed is cover in mid, While they did add a pole in the rework, a charger on snipe can deny enemys from both stacks, right side, and mid all on its own, and while adding a route left could help it still wouldnt fully fix the problem. I think they should make the floor on snipe uninkable, all some blocks on stack and mid, and that would keep right punishable from snipe, but allow other routes to see use. Also I do not think fully removing the block circled in red would be the most effective, rather than keeping the ramp they added in the rework and turning it into a grate, so you can still stand on it and use it as height and move space on stack, but still allow another path. This grate would also add a jump where you paint the wall on the stack (or ramp) and squid roll off the get up quicker but be vunerable because of being on the grates. Also the grating bridge going into spawn could probably use a paintable block just to help pushing from there as a viable option if moving into the enemy base. Also prob extend the spawn region a bit right so that defenders have more space to work with and can access the right side from height.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Mincemeat has always seemed to need such simple changes to become much better. Made me sad that Nintendo's rework didn't really address the problem at all.

View attachment 11264

To keep it simple, the block circled in red should be removed or maybe replaced with a smaller block both teams can go around so there's still cover there and the walls circled in yellow should be paintable. Now you can actually move on the map! Wow!

I imagine with this the left route would be a lot easier to push through. You'd mostly just need to take that platform between the two grate bridges away from the enemies. If you managed to get a guy back there then that'd seriously mess with the enemy team since you'd either need to put a frontline on that platform or you'd need any backlines you have on snipe to watch to their far right on top of just looking at mid regularly. Pushing right would probably be harder since that's where their backline is most likely to see you and you won't reasonably be able to reach it at all without specials, but if you manage to get there then it won't be too difficult to get behind the enemy team entirely.

I dunno, seems like a fun bunch of changes to me.

Mincemeat is definitely one of the maps that needs reworking the most, I agree with you there.

Removing/shrinking the block you circled in red isn't really doable unfortunately, but something we could do is add an uninkable block below it so you can jump up onto it like stairs. I'll edit in a picture later if I can. This would also mean that it would be possible to back up if you drop off of that box, making it easier to traverse/fight both directions while keeping it slightly slower than the middle which has less cover.

Adding a block or two to be able to get over the walls you circled in yellow would be good, but I don't know how those would work simply because I don't remember the new layout of those areas. I do think you should be able to get over those walls, but it's hard to tell what other impacts that would have.

 

[DzNutsKong]

I feel like mincemeat does have a problem of getting on the enemy plat, but another problem that wasnt addressed is cover in mid, While they did add a pole in the rework, a charger on snipe can deny enemys from both stacks, right side, and mid all on its own, and while adding a route left could help it still wouldnt fully fix the problem. I think they should make the floor on snipe uninkable, all some blocks on stack and mid, and that would keep right punishable from snipe, but allow other routes to see use.

The issue definitely isn't cover in mid, since in all ranked modes there's the pole in the center + usually a block to the left + your stack on the right. Maybe if you're attacking but in that case you'd at least be able to push up against the wall by their plat if you were to somehow get there too.

The two spots you can kinda argue are the stacks and spawn but fixing those wouldn't really do much to make the map feel better to play on. Spawn could possibly use it but putting them on the stacks wouldn't suddenly make it a good place for frontline weapons to stand. The problem is that you can't move because there's no way to actually approach without something with more range staring you down, especially a charger sitting on that perch, and adding routes forces weapons like that to actually look in different directions and allow their teammates time to get in on the other side of the map.

Making the floor uninkable could be nice though. The threat of a bomb being thrown up there would be noticeable. Can't really comment much on spawn because you never get to play it because you spend every game on Mincemeat at a standstill in mid.

Mincemeat is definitely one of the maps that needs reworking the most, I agree with you there.

Removing/shrinking the block you circled in red isn't really doable unfortunately, but something we could do is add an uninkable block below it so you can jump up onto it like stairs. I'll edit in a picture later if I can. This would also mean that it would be possible to back up if you drop off of that box, making it easier to traverse/fight both directions while keeping it slightly slower than the middle which has less cover.

Adding a block or two to be able to get over the walls you circled in yellow would be good, but I don't know how those would work simply because I don't remember the new layout of those areas. I do think you should be able to get over those walls, but it's hard to tell what other impacts that would have.

That'd be perfectly fine too. Main idea was that the left side becomes a half decent attacking route since if you were to get up or through where that block is, you'd be fairly hidden from the rest of the map. The one exception would be the stack directly next to it but I think that's okay + some weapons still would be able to threaten that stack before getting there without too much difficulty. Also if I'm not mistaken the screenshot I grabbed IS the reworked Mincemeat on Splat Zones specifically but to be honest the differences are so small that I couldn't tell you for certain LOL

 

[Madman46i]

The issue definitely isn't cover in mid, since in all ranked modes there's the pole in the center + usually a block to the left + your stack on the right. Maybe if you're attacking but in that case you'd at least be able to push up against the wall by their plat if you were to somehow get there too.

The point is to allow a route to move through mid on the attacking side, specifically bottom mid. Top mid is better at defending but I think should also have the weakness of having less cover. Just having the extra viable route of mid would be nice, and I think it would be balanced due to how when someone pushes through mid, they get under the plat but would still need to rotate left or right to get ON the plat. The chargers on snipe could still cover top mid from snipe, but being able to approach below from 3 different angles provides a good weakness.

 

[Madman46i]

The point is to allow a route to move through mid on the attacking side, specifically bottom mid. Top mid is better at defending but I think should also have the weakness of having less cover. Just having the extra viable route of mid would be nice, and I think it would be balanced due to how when someone pushes through mid, they get under the plat but would still need to rotate left or right to get ON the plat. The chargers on snipe could still cover top mid from snipe, but being able to approach below from 3 different angles provides a good weakness.

Forgot to add that the I think the pole in mid is not enough cover, it provides no way of getting on the offensive without being open to a charger shot for WAY too long and at too many angles. Getting a block or two between the pole and the plat would be ideal imo, We could also make those 2 blocks be able to be used as a jump to stack or plat it you jump from smaller block, to bigger block first. If you don't understand what I mean by that is a shorter block and a taller block close to eachother, where you can jump on the short block, to the tall block, and from the tall block to stack or plat (specifically snipe).

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I think a bumper or block or something here would work as good cover.

The area to the right (below the dot, from the overhead perspective in the image) already has a bit of cover after the rework, so I think it's fine. A bumper here would also let you more easily get directly below snipe, where it's hard for the backliner to hit you.

I do think a flank on the right side would be good, but you should have to go around so it's not too fast. Maybe replacing the sponge in the bottom right corner of the image with the block that used to be in clam blitz?