Citrus
Inkling Cadet
Walleye is definitely one of my favorites, because, as flc said, there is a ton of depth to the map
Yeah, but I feel like you still have options. I'm willing to bet, like me, you probably just jump in and attack because you feel you have to. When in reality you should save for a special and force them back or to an area and stuff. Idk, I feel like people don't use that strat enough. Granted, it is super hard to get back into Warehouse. But you have 3 different ways. (Left, Middle, Right) I never see people perfectly defend them. Always one area is just dead, and if you're good you can force your team in the advantage, and choke the enemy knowing they don't know the choke points.I just think it's inexcusable that the tower's entire route takes 20 seconds on Saltspray Rig. Lose just one team fight and the match is decided.
I hate Urchin Underpass in Turf/Zones because of how easy it is to defend the middle, but it all changes in Tower since you're forced passed the choke.
I would agree with the exception of your calling Bluefin Depot unbalanced. I've never notice a disadvantage depending on the side. In fact it is my favorite map.Yeah this idea of a tier list is pretty bad. All maps on all gamemodes offer more than one option to approach splat zones or critical neutral areas. Almost all maps are 100% balanced for both teams with the insignificant exception of Bluefin Depot on Splat Zones. This basically is just a list of favorite stages. Preference should not play a role in tiers.
You can't just "disagree" with the fact that Bluefin has slight differences between each side. It is non symmetrical. Might not be significant, but it's there.I would agree with the exception of your calling Bluefin Depot unbalanced. I've never notice a disadvantage depending on the side. In fact it is my favorite map.
Amen to this whole post. This is how counterpicks should be determined when competitive teams get accommodated to the scene. That and of course certain weapons on certain maps (i.e. E-liters on Moray)You can't just "disagree" with the fact that Bluefin has slight differences between each side. It is non symmetrical. Might not be significant, but it's there.
I still feel that several maps are unbalanced, even if both teams start out equally. Weapons are obvious but should mostly be anticipated. What I don't like is if leads are especially defensible OR easily turned around. It makes it extremely frustrating like no matter how good you are you can't win. It sucks if an early lead is all you need, and it also sucks if it's worthless to try until the last 30 seconds.
This happens because maps are not 100% balanced for both teams 100% of the time at all points. And they shouldn't be. The middle should be neutral, and your team's spawn should be advantageous so you can push out. Various other points can flip, but it shouldn't lean too hard one way or another.
I'm not disagreeing with the fact its not perfectly symmetrical, I am disagreeing to the fact its significant enough to become an unbalanced map on that alone. In fact its barely noticeable.You can't just "disagree" with the fact that Bluefin has slight differences between each side. It is non symmetrical. Might not be significant, but it's there.
I'd argue that this has way less to do with the actual map being bad or unbalanced and more to do with your team not working together well enough or being on the same skill level.I still feel that several maps are unbalanced, even if both teams start out equally. Weapons are obvious but should mostly be anticipated. What I don't like is if leads are especially defensible OR easily turned around. It makes it extremely frustrating like no matter how good you are you can't win. It sucks if an early lead is all you need, and it also sucks if it's worthless to try until the last 30 seconds.
This happens because maps are not 100% balanced for both teams 100% of the time at all points. And they shouldn't be. The middle should be neutral, and your team's spawn should be advantageous so you can push out. Various other points can flip, but it shouldn't lean too hard one way or another.
while I won't dispute that bombs over the right alley wall are effective for that one particular spot, elitres should not be standing there and all it takes is one person guarding that alley and it's completely unusable. and no matter how much bomb range you have, it's not gonna change the fact that elitres outrange every bomb in the game and there are very few places to take advantage of line of sightFor maps that are apparently "ruined by E-liters," I will now tell you the secret to beating them.
You ready? Bombs.
this explains a lot, though I'd still recommend at least stating your original meaning along with the for-kids version so this sort of thing doesn't happen againYou're correct. I did say 'tends to be better' and not is better. Blackbelly I feel is very well executed (in SZ) because having good knowledge of all the various angles doesn't allow you to pull any silly shenanigans but does allow you an advantage over your opponents. There's a lot to a good competitive map and I was trying to be as simple as humanely possible because lolsquidboards. Arowana has more problems then just e-liter tho :p.
It's not a matter of 'too complex' but rather leaning to some kind of extreme (Moray's vertical-ness, Bluefin's unbreachable one-way mid section in SZ, etc). Blackbelly does do this with the crazy amount of elevation in a relatively small area but I felt it was done well.
I still think that tournaments (assuming they ran SZ only) that the maps in 'Really Good' would be great neutral stages and the maps in 'Okay' makes good counter-pick material if that were to ever be a thing in competitve. That's the kind of thing thats hard to say before 4v4 comes out.
Offtopic but how was the VoD analysis? I never felt I could learn much going back to rewatch. That seems far more suited towards 4v4 strat analysis.
Going off of the reddit thread they linked to make their case contradicts them saying its insignificant as the OP makes it seem like it is pretty significant and I was disagreeing with that.@Hari Judari well that's why the post you quoted said it was insignificant... So really you're not in disagreement after all.
About teams, uh, I think it's a bit more than "git gud." Like just look at the points on the map and you can tell what is advantageous terrain. Whether winning or not, it always tends towards domination on that map for me, and I feel it's because the map gives too much of an advantage.
But in any case, are you going to say the map itself can't influence the outcome of a match? As in, the only reason for a loss is because they just weren't better than the other side. No such thing as unfair advantage, so if you can't push through any part of the map no matter what the enemy is doing, you're just bad.
can you elaborate on this? the wide angle for shots is basically what gives chargers such a ridiculous advantage on this map and I can't see any other options to push an e-liter other than climbing up the wall. I also maybe can barely see a two-man push across mid working against an absolutely incompetent e-liter. Against a somewhat decent e-liter you shouldn't be able to come even close to being in range to throw bombs up there.meanwhile, an assault on an elitre on moray can come from a very wide angle, all shots have a narrow window before the player escapes (meaning a two-man push will almost always work)
There needs to be a couple things said.while I won't dispute that bombs over the right alley wall are effective for that one particular spot, elitres should not be standing there and all it takes is one person guarding that alley and it's completely unusable. and no matter how much bomb range you have, it's not gonna change the fact that elitres outrange every bomb in the game and there are very few places to take advantage of line of sight
basically the problem isn't that elitres can't be forced out of position, it's that what is needed to actually remove them is often such that you become very vulnerable to the other people on their team. and if they aren't forced out of position, they can see the entire map except the right alley... which is so easy to lock down by a single js or 96 deco or even tentatek that the map is broken as a result
moray has similar problems, to be fair, but the difference is that elitres are virtually unassailable on arowana (where the only way to take out an elitre on either catwalk is to be either in mid or on one of the alleyway exits, and both options are awful), and even if they miss all their shots, the only way someone can go is either down into their lower mid (where the elitre still has vision on them), through the alleyway (which is easy to check on the gamepad), or, in zones, across to the left catwalk (which is free shots for the elitre)
meanwhile, an assault on an elitre on moray can come from a very wide angle, all shots have a narrow window before the player escapes (meaning a two-man push will almost always work), and once someone is in your base on moray there's no telling where they will be and the advantage switches to short-range weapons
Read this post and the previous one on how to deal with eliters.can you elaborate on this? the wide angle for shots is basically what gives chargers such a ridiculous advantage on this map and I can't see any other options to push an e-liter other than climbing up the wall. I also maybe can barely see a two-man push across mid working against an absolutely incompetent e-liter. Against a somewhat decent e-liter you shouldn't be able to come even close to being in range to throw bombs up there.
I don't know maybe I hold chargers to too high of a standard but you CAN'T even drop to mid without dying against a braindead charger and you're basically a sitting duck going through the zone because there's barely any cover.
IMO this map is not only broken, it has somewhat broken ranked the other day, you would lose if you don't have an e-liter on your team but if you got 3 e-liters when the other map is drawn you were almost as doomed.
correct! what about four e-litres? Or other teammates? I mean having one guaranteed kill if someone wants to go to mid results in an immediate 3v4 situation, you won't ever win out on sacrificing a guy just to push an e-literFirst, an E-liter can not focus on two targets at the same time. You may be thinking, well of course, but this is important for later
What? I actually have ink recovery and ink saver gear equipped and an e-litre still charges faster, if I need to get even more ink saver sub and ink recovery perks where do my bomb range perks go?Second, you can spam bombs faster then they can charge and reach you.
so I just tested this with 3 bomb range up main perks, the farthest I've gotten a any bomb was to about the balloon cover (cant remember if its there in splat zones / tower control only had the recon mode for turf war available). This isn't even close to pushing an e-liter out of range, he could even sit on the far edge of the platform and still have the range to reach you where you are, that position is the epitomy of a sitting duck. that's what I meant with "maybe I hold charger players to too high of a standard" because you should never be able to get one into trouble like this.Seeing how I am not in the center of the map, it's hard to be interrupted. And even if someone comes my way, I can easily see them and stop them.
Dude the link was to explain what was unbalanced about it. I literally said it was insignificant in regards to its balance. Pacing is a problem on certain maps and controlling certain points on certain maps leads to more difficult comebacks.Going off of the reddit thread they linked to make their case contradicts them saying its insignificant as the OP makes it seem like it is pretty significant and I was disagreeing with that.
Concerning teams, with the maps we currently have in Splatoon there is no map that favors one team more than the other. Sure there are advantageous positions in the map (unless it was entirely flat terrain there is no way it would be 100% neutral) but there are still ways to get around those positions and take them down. I hate saying "git gud" however if your problem is you feel another team is completely dominating yours consistently on a certain map it IS likely because you are uncomfortable playing at that skill level of the map and need to essentially "git gud" in the simplest of terms.