My opinions on the maps competitive balance.

[WaifuRaccoonBL]

correct! what about four e-litres? Or other teammates? I mean having one guaranteed kill if someone wants to go to mid results in an immediate 3v4 situation, you won't ever win out on sacrificing a guy just to push an e-liter

We are dealing with people not super computers. Just because there are four people doesn't mean they will be able to take out each of the 4 people with each of their charge shot.

They will both sometimes aim at one person accidentally, and if they both fire, well thats a wasted shot that could've gone to someone else. And they can't argue about it, or one of them pull away because they have to do things immediately. And pulling away also risk the other person also thinking to pull away and now no ones is firing at the person. Also, E-liter are long ranged weapons who can't handle short range that well. If you can break through and capture their base, you pretty much win, because it's hard for them to take back a base themselves. Chargers are support type weapons relying on how other teammates are doing but also helping them succeed. Once you capture their base, they can't do anything and you get all the space to flank them.

Now how to do it? Well, I can tell you the number one way. Specials.

Most specifically:
and most importantly
Thats the majority of the specials so don't go telling me what if someone doesn't have one of these or even a combination.

Inkzooka allows you to sneakily just end an eliter if you can activate it without them noticing.
Inkstrike allows you to be anywhere and aim anywhere, thus allowing you to target an area an eliter is in, and scare him off. Also can get you to cap a base making them have to focus on it allowing you enough time to cap it.
Killer wail is like inkstrike and inkzooka allowing you to pick off an eliter.
Kraken is kinda like the bubbler, but it get you in their base, take out one of the eliters, or even cap them.
Bubbler is the most important simply for the fact it can share This allows you to just take out all the eliters and cap the base. I mean, it really is simple. The Eliters can't defend themselves, they can't take advantage of the bubbler receiving a lot of knockback. Not to mention, lets say they can some how recover their zone. Great, now what? I mean, now they are force to be offensive and take the other teams point AND keep it longer than your team's. Which they can't do. I mean thats another thing, just having one bubbler ruins them.

Also pushing an eliter is very important. They are the most powerful when their zone isn't capped and they can focus on the middle area. Once the zone is capped, they lost a lot of a value because now they are forced to focus on both the middle section and the zone which allows a lot more people to slip in. You can basically make it a 4 vs 3 1/2 situation.

What? I actually have ink recovery and ink saver gear equipped and an e-litre still charges faster, if I need to get even more ink saver sub and ink recovery perks where do my bomb range perks go?

I have no idea if this is true, (they are probably around equal), but that doesn't even matter. You aren't calculating for the fact that an Eliter has to drop everything they are doing when a bombs comes there way. Meaning they aren't charging. However, the one throwing the bombs IS refilling ink, meaning in this situation you are indeed refilling faster than they can charge and shoot.

so I just tested this with 3 bomb range up main perks, the farthest I've gotten a any bomb was to about the balloon cover (cant remember if its there in splat zones / tower control only had the recon mode for turf war available). This isn't even close to pushing an e-liter out of range, he could even sit on the far edge of the platform and still have the range to reach you where you are, that position is the epitomy of a sitting duck. that's what I meant with "maybe I hold charger players to too high of a standard" because you should never be able to get one into trouble like this.

You missed the point of the bomb range up. The point of bomb range up is to make it so you don't have to set up some momentum some to get the bomb somewhat where you want it, which setting up cost time. You aren't suppose to outrange, because like I said, you get plenty of opportunities when they aren't looking.

 

[Kaliafornia]

Dude the link was to explain what was unbalanced about it. I literally said it was insignificant in regards to its balance. Pacing is a problem on certain maps and controlling certain points on certain maps leads to more difficult comebacks.

I'm saying if the link was to explain your point it did you a disservice since the reddit thread is arguing a point different to your own and you are only taking a pieces from it. I get you now though.

Also I haven't seen a point made so far that proves its the map's fault and not the skill of the player. I acknowledged certain parts of the map are more advantageous to hold (key being "to hold" as this requires skill) but not impossible to get past players or lure them into certain actions to give yourself the advantage. But pacing? There is no "pace" here, this isn't MK.

 

[superman]

We are dealing with people not super computers. Just because there are four people doesn't mean they will be able to take out each of the 4 people with each of their charge shot.

I know were not playing against supercomputers :P
But here's what I mean, someone dropping to mid is not hard to hit, he's committed to his trajectory, if you drop down to mid against an e-litre all you can do is hope that he for some reason misses. They also don't have to hit every shot, it's why I asked flc to elaborate on the "narrow window" before one escapes, going over uninked or enemy turf takes so long and you have to pop up a number of times and give chargers decent shots, if you want to climb up the wall you have to expose yourself on top of the ramp and give them another easy shot.
Snipers are one of the easier weapons to hit with especially when you're playing against people who don't know how to move when they have a sniper focused on them and Splatoon's netcode isn't helping you either. Splatoon also gives you something far better and more accurate than the measly crutch that is a traditional gamepad to aim.

You missed the point of the bomb range up. The point of bomb range up is to make it so you don't have to set up some momentum some to get the bomb somewhat where you want it, which setting up cost time. You aren't suppose to outrange, because like I said, you get plenty of opportunities when they aren't looking.

I know I'm not supposed to outrange but I find it troublesome that I can't even force him out of my range to give me some breathing room, while at the same time I have exactly one spot I can throw this from.

You're right that you can use a combination of specials, mainly inkstrike and killer wail IMO

• Inkzooka, while a good option is outranged by an e-litre, I also have trouble seing how you can be sneaky on this map when it's so wide open everyone should know at every point of the match where you are
• bubbler / kraken, is a OHKO when you drop to mid, you'll just be pushed into the void

Inkstrike, killer wail give you some breathing room, don't know if it's enough. A combination could work but seeing how you have limited turf and time you'll probably only get one chance to pull something off.

 

[WaifuRaccoonBL]

I know were not playing against supercomputers :p
But here's what I mean, someone dropping to mid is not hard to hit, he's committed to his trajectory, if you drop down to mid against an e-litre all you can do is hope that he for some reason misses. They also don't have to hit every shot, it's why I asked flc to elaborate on the "narrow window" before one escapes, going over uninked or enemy turf takes so long and you have to pop up a number of times and give chargers decent shots, if you want to climb up the wall you have to expose yourself on top of the ramp and give them another easy shot.
Snipers are one of the easier weapons to hit with especially when you're playing against people who don't know how to move when they have a sniper focused on them and Splatoon's netcode isn't helping you either. Splatoon also gives you something far better and more accurate than the measly crutch that is a traditional gamepad to aim.

Dropping into the middle is hard while there is an eliter. Which is why you distract them with bombs.

I know I'm not supposed to outrange but I find it troublesome that I can't even force him out of my range to give me some breathing room, while at the same time I have exactly one spot I can throw this from.

Irrelevant. As long as it can be done, then it will be taken into account for competitive play. However, you should be aware you actually do still have the center, it's just not as safe because the eliter can more easily see you and so can other enemy players. However, distracting them here gives you enough space to reach their base at the very least. However, you need to be able to aim here, because missing is costly.

• Inkzooka, while a good option is outranged by an e-litre, I also have trouble seing how you can be sneaky on this map when it's so wide open everyone should know at every point of the match where you are
• bubbler / kraken, is a OHKO when you drop to mid, you'll just be pushed into the void

You use the inkzooka like you use a bomb. When they don't notice, you activate it and start firing immediately. Also, squidding in just the right way can somewhat help bypass the other eliters or you could use ninja squid.

As for your bubblers and Krakens you are wrong.

Firstly, I really doubt the knockback on the bubbler is so bad that they would be force you off the cliff no matter how good your momentum is. Not to mention I am once again saying these people aren't super computers, so they can't take care of all the bubblers at once.

I for sure know the kraken doesn't get pushed back that much.

One big problem is you completely ignore the side path. Why are people unable just go straight for it and have to go over the cliff?

 

[superman]

Dropping into the middle is hard while there is an eliter. Which is why you distract them with bombs

How do you distract with bombs when you cant even reach him or make him move significantly enough?

Irrelevant

Not irrelevant! You have only one option to make an e-litre move outside of specials. We're discussing competitive viability here. This is so far from irrelevant as it can be.

Firstly, I really doubt the knockback on the bubbler is so bad that they would be force you off the cliff no matter how good your momentum is. Not to mention I am once again saying these people aren't super computers, so they can't take care of all the bubblers at once.

The point was it doesnt matter if you have a bubbler when you want to drop into middle, you'll be hit whille dropping, knockback should be easily enough to send you off stage. You will even drop into the void if you don't have enough momentum going of the ledge without someone shooting you. Taking the long route might bring you in to mid where you have to kill the e-litres team first. If the e-litre is decent enough he will place enough beacons at his vantage points for his team to retreat to or just have a krak-on do it. The custom e-litre is still very strong on this map though, the beacons give him so much liberty to be aggressive, push and then retreat to the safe platform when the other team respawns

One big problem is you completely ignore the side path. Why are people unable just go straight for it and have to go over the cliff?

I didn't ignore it I was asking for other options because I don't believe taking the long route with little to no cover giving an e-litre even more time to kill me should be considered.

Another strategy that might work is just facerushing the opponent with opening gambit, hope for the best and try to lock them down.


EDIT: I just want to add here that there's a reason every notable competitive shooter on the PC (CS, Quake, Unreal Tournament) had most of it's competitively used maps created by the community. Devs have a tendency to design gimmicky BS maps to show off one facet of the game. Moray is exactly that. I wish we had a map editor for Splatoon :(

 

[UnLucky]

Concerning teams, with the maps we currently have in Splatoon there is no map that favors one team more than the other. Sure there are advantageous positions in the map (unless it was entirely flat terrain there is no way it would be 100% neutral) but there are still ways to get around those positions and take them down. I hate saying "git gud" however if your problem is you feel another team is completely dominating yours consistently on a certain map it IS likely because you are uncomfortable playing at that skill level of the map and need to essentially "git gud" in the simplest of terms.

Well Bluefin could be!

Anyway no, it's not just my team sucking, I said it happens like that for me too, and always at the same spot. The most lopsided matched are always on Urchin Underpass.

Saltspray has a lot of paths around to sneak up on sniper spots, Warehouse has protected side paths that are hard to camp the exits, and Mall has tons of vantage points for the defending side. If you get pushed back here your team sucks or has the wrong weapons.

But I'm saying U.U. is the opposite. There isn't advantageous terrain to stage a comeback. You have to fight an uphill battle or sneak past somehow to take the fight somewhere else because pushing from your spawn is a bad idea. Assuming both teams are highly skilled, this is problematic.

 

[Kaliafornia]

Well Bluefin could be!

Anyway no, it's not just my team sucking, I said it happens like that for me too, and always at the same spot. The most lopsided matched are always on Urchin Underpass.

Saltspray has a lot of paths around to sneak up on sniper spots, Warehouse has protected side paths that are hard to camp the exits, and Mall has tons of vantage points for the defending side. If you get pushed back here your team sucks or has the wrong weapons.

But I'm saying U.U. is the opposite. There isn't advantageous terrain to stage a comeback. You have to fight an uphill battle or sneak past somehow to take the fight somewhere else because pushing from your spawn is a bad idea. Assuming both teams are highly skilled, this is problematic.

U.U has 3 paths to the middle. 2 of the 3 are higher up which give the advantage, if used correctly. As I said before its not so much the skill of your team but how well your team can work together and hold/push position. It's a barrel shoot. If both teams have the same amount of highly skilled players on them that doesn't mean those players are going to adapt and work well together as a team. Overextending is too common when the competition is team based however you cannot communicate with your team. You can only account for how you personally played, you can't say a teammate didn't throw or held up their end. K/D ratios at the end aren't always reflective of this either.

Personally I find Saltspray and Wally much easier to hold and dominate than Urchin but that is my personal preference. At the end of the day the reason you aren't winning isn't because of maps. No one still has been able to give me concrete examples for that.

 

[Vexen]

I honestly can't understand why people would consider arrowama "really" good for splatzones, it's probably the worst of all the maps in my opinion.

The biggest problem with it is that it's on the high ground so anyone competent can just camp right there and prevent the primary path to the point without any effort. After this there is the issues with the side entrances taking absolutely no effort at all to defend against making it a very snowbally map, much more so than the other maps. My point is, in a match of 2 evenly matched teams, 8/10 times the team that wins will be the team that gains control of the high ground first. Compared to all the other maps with splatzones, camping the high ground doesn't gain you any advantages at all.