Nerfing bombs

[youre_a_squib_now]

I think most of us are aware of the disparity in strength between bombs and other subs; in the past, I have advocated for buffing utility subs to the level of bombs, but more main-focused metas are generally much more well-liked, and so nerfing bombs seems more appealing, or at least some of both.

Here's how I would nerf splat bomb: entirely remove the indirect radius of splat bomb. Or at least make it barely bigger than the direct radius; it's currently almost double.

It only takes a second to explode, including the time it's rolling, and the weapon it's thrown at might be in an animation at the time, but the direct radius is small enough that it's almost always possible to move out of the way or at the very least squid roll it. (I play s-blast, which is on the worse end in terms of endlag (especially for aggressive weapons) and even so, my deaths to splat bomb are almost always a skill issue. I try to squid roll when I don't have enough speed instead of just sub strafing; as a result, I end up flopping around in the air like an idiot and dying to a bomb I could have easily survived.) The problem is that even after successfully moving out of the way, you still get hit by the indirect. You know how I said that even given endlag and the fast fuse time, the direct radius is almost always avoidable? Now double that radius. Not so avoidable. You're forced to either take damage and risk being comboed (or just die because you were already hit with 70), or squid roll and lock yourself out of using your main weapon for a short time as well as committing to whatever direction you squid rolled in. And this is after you already moved out of the way of the direct radius. It's completely unfair, especially for slower weapons. The point of splat bomb is to block a certain path, displacing or trapping an opponent. It does that job well, as it should. What it *doesn't* need is to combo on top of that.

Suction bomb is much slower, especially because it can't be rolled, so it should be larger and exert stronger control; this justifies having an indirect radius. However, its current indirect radius is even more extreme than splat bomb's. Reducing it by 15% to 25% should make it reasonable to avoid.

Thrown torpedo is also slow, so if it explodes on you, you've already failed, and as a result you've been hit with 60 damage and your feet have been painted. And since you got hit in the first place, you're probably on a slower weapons. If you manage to move in spite of that, you shouldn't be punished again by being hit with more damage and having your feet painted over again by the pellets. I would lower the pellet damage to 6 so you only die to the same combos after getting hit by two. Also, they should have a slightly smaller radius, but more importantly, they should land much sooner, so that there's less of a chance of the pellets hitting you after you successfully move in spite of failing to shoot the torpedo.

Autobomb is even slower than those two, and the target controls when it explodes. The second one alone means an indirect radius is fine, even though it's still almost as large as splat bomb's. I think it only needs reduced by 5% or 10%.

 

[OnePotWonder]

While I find this mostly agreeable, I don't think getting out of the way of a bomb explosion should be a difficult skill. I do think Splat Bomb needs at the very least a small direct radius nerf, considering its extremely short fuse timer compared to all other lethal bombs.

The main issue I have with bombs is their paint. The fact that a bomb not only limits movement and denies space for a second or two, as well as being potentially lethal, combined with fully painting a large splotch of turf is just too much for one sub weapon to reasonably be able to do. I would change it so bombs' paint is more similar to Booyah Bomb's on top of these changes, being streaky and not easily swimmable, as well as covering 30%-40% less area and no longer throwing off droplets when they explode. Additionally, just for the sake of appearance, this would come with a change making bombs' explosion animations more similar to Booyah Bomb's.

By the way, I would completely remove Torpedo's pellets and put them on a new sub weapon. Or maybe fuse them with Sprinkler.
Actually, that's a really fun idea. EXPLOSIVE SPRINKLER.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

While I find this mostly agreeable, I don't think getting out of the way of a bomb explosion should be a difficult skill. I do think Splat Bomb needs at the very least a small direct radius nerf, considering its extremely short fuse timer compared to all other lethal bombs.

I don't think it is difficult; me dying because of a failed squid roll isn't specific to splat bombs. A couple months ago I almost never died to the direct damage, and I wasn't sub strafing. Even if you include those silly deaths, around half of the time i die to splat bomb it's because of the indirect damage.

If it must be nerfed, I think a 5 frame fuse time nerf would be better. It would similarly make it slightly easier to escape from, plus making it easier to squid roll, without decreasing the area it controls. But I really don't think it's necessary.

The main issue I have with bombs is their paint. The fact that a bomb not only limits movement and denies space for a second or two, as well as being potentially lethal, combined with fully painting a large splotch of turf is just too much for one sub weapon to reasonably be able to do.

Painting the turf isn't just some extra bonus thing it does; it's necessary for cutting off the area inside the explosion radius, which is the whole purpose of the sub.
The combo damage, while still relevant to what it's trying to do, isn't nearly as necessary. Splat bomb would function perfectly fine without it. And it's the most unfair part of the sub, because the only reasonable way to avoid it is by squid rolling, unless you're already right next to cover. There just isn't time to swim that far.

I would change it so bombs' paint is more similar to Booyah Bomb's on top of these changes, being streaky and not easily swimmable, as well as covering 30%-40% less area and no longer throwing off droplets when they explode.

The droplets should be removed; they're the other part of splat bomb that doesn't help what it's meant to do. They mostly just help you charge special, which isn't something splat bomb needs to be better at. For splat bomb, they're actually around half of the total paint it puts out (in the training room at least) because the paint radius is so small. Pictures attached; look at the special gauge.

The other paint changes I completely disagree with. Painting the floor is an extremely important part of its function. With less paint, it's not nearly as effective at the thing it's supposed to do, which is control the specific small space it's thrown into.

Also, booyah bomb's paint is swimmable; only the very outer ring or two isn't. And it's a huge part of what makes it function. Trust me, it would feel terrible to use and would be trivial to fight without the amount of paint it puts down. Or ask @isaac4 if you don't believe me.

The only argument I've seen you make against the paint is that the sub does too many things. And I agree; it's one of the reasons bombs are so far ahead of other subs. Most other subs only do one or two things.
Drastically decreasing the paint and drastically decreasing the combo potential both take away one thing from the list of things that splat bomb does well. But one takes away from its core identity, making it less effective at its primary purpose and thus making it less fun to use, while the other takes away from the most annoying and unfair part (for lack of better words), leaving the core strengths intact. (Plus, it's getting worse at charging special anyway because of the removed droplets.)

If you have any arguments for why specifically the paint should be worsened instead of something else, I'd love to hear them.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

By the way, I would completely remove Torpedo's pellets and put them on a new sub weapon. Or maybe fuse them with Sprinkler.

I do like the pellets for torpedo. The point is to leave you vulnerable if you don't shoot it down. What I don't like is that it's not at all uncommon to get hit by two pellets, and unless you stand still you'll almost certainly get hit by at least one. (The training dummies sometimes avoid this, but they don't move slower through enemy ink.) That's 72 or 84 damage. That means that if you got hit at all beforehand, the pellets will kill you. It's not that I'm opposed to leaving you vulnerable, but what I don't like is that you can be hit by someone, fail to shoot down the torpedo (because you were fighting said someone), and then die a slow painful death to the torpedo and pellets even after that person is long gone.

Here's an idea: I think they should do 0.5 damage, to keep you vulnerable by painting your feet and preventing you from healing, but without the ability to kill you themselves. And with only 0.5 damage, the previous changes I suggested for it aren't necessary anymore, since those were targeting the same issue, but not as well since those changes removed some of the trapping ability as well, while not fully removing the ability for the pellets to splat.

 

[OnePotWonder]

If you have any arguments for why specifically the paint should be worsened instead of something else, I'd love to hear them.

My main argument is pretty straightforward. Bombs are too good at charging players' specials and capping splat zones. Other sub weapons hardly ever come close, if they even paint in the first place. Bombs only exacerbate short-range shooters' ungodly paint and special spam problem. Removing the extra splatters is a good start, but lowering the base amount of paint bombs output either by thinning or radius decrease is a change that maybe doesn't need to happen, but definitely should.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

So the problem is that the paint output can be used to abuse mechanics that rely on paint, not the paint itself.

In that case, I think it just makes more sense to change said mechanics. Reduce all special charge from sub weapons by half. Fix zone cheese, somehow, that one isn't just a bomb thing anyway. (I still think zones is the least fun mode.) That way you don't have to get rid of the thing that the sub is actually supposed to be doing.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Even with special charge out of the way as a problem, paint is still paint, and a workaround fix to the zones issue just doesn't exist. I'm not saying remove the paint, but make it less effective since the bomb's lethal damage is already doing most of the heavy lifting. What's the point of Toxic Mist if it takes more time and ink to paint over the remains of an exploded bomb? It's unnecessary.

And I think it's clear I don't care if it makes bombs less fun to use or detracts from their identity. It's not like they're exactly super fun to use as of now, nor that their identities really improve the game in any way. The change makes them much less annoying to fight, and that stands above all else in my eyes.

I mean, seriously, do you see the paint in this image? That's a Splat Bomb. Suction Bomb paints even more than that. You aren't going to look at that flawlessly filled-in circle and tell me that's reasonable. I just want the messy perimeter's worth of radius gone and a few streaks of uninked area inside of that circle. Plus the outside splatters gone. That seems like a fair ask.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Even with special charge out of the way as a problem, paint is still paint, and a workaround fix to the zones issue just doesn't exist.

This still sounds like a zones problem to me.

Spoiler: tangent about zones i didn't want to delete

I've heard people say that zones is the best because you don't have to have one person dedicated to doing the objective; after watching some competitive splat zones, I have to disagree. Everyone does the objective. So much of the time, it's just everybody from both teams painting the zone, trying to get the cap so they can proceed. (I'm obviously simplifying a lot and I don't understand well how the game is played from a top level, but neither will a spectator. It's just not interesting to watch, and it doesn't sound interesting to play either.)

Yes, bombs are perhaps too valuable for painting the zone. It's called zone cheese and it's a problem with way more than just bombs; bombs are simply a less extreme case. (Whether it is technically called zone cheese for bombs is debatable, and also irrelevant.)

I think the fact that such a strong focus on paint works at all means that there's a problem with how the mode is scored. When training AI models, a poorly designed reward will lead to the AI finding a better method to get the reward than the method that the reward was intended to lead them to. For example, an AI that is trained to play bowling could be encouraged to roll the ball in the correct direction by giving it a higher reward the faster the ball moves in said direction. But if that reward is too high, it might end up throwing the ball as hard as it can to maximize the reward, regardless of accuracy. (This actually happened.)
In splat zones, the intended goal is to be in control of the center of the stage for as long as possible. (I'll let you interpret that as you will; I don't have the energy to clarify, and I don't have the knowledge to know that I'd be doing it well.) But I certainly know that the intention wasn't to use this many resources on painting specifically the splat zone. The fact that it's the most effective way to play the game means that something is very wrong with the reward system (how the score is calculated).

In short, the color of the zone should be an indicator of who has map control, not the goal itself. It fails at that job. That is not the fault of bombs or reefslider or strikes or anything else with good burst paint.

I'm not saying remove the paint, but make it less effective since the bomb's lethal damage is already doing most of the heavy lifting. What's the point of Toxic Mist if it takes more time and ink to paint over the remains of an exploded bomb? It's unnecessary.

The argument I see here is that the paint is unnecessary because the explosion itself does the same thing. But just because it's working towards the same goal doesn't mean it's redundant; just the opposite. The damage and the paint synergize with each other. They work together to block an option. Throwing a bomb that doesn't paint is kind of like kicking someone from a discord server with a public invite link. It sends a message, and it makes them leave in the moment, but it doesn't actually keep them out.

Also, painting over a splat bomb doesn't even take that long. It's only two ZR presses for bucket, brella, and decavitator, and half a second of firing time for tetras and nautilus. With the exception of decavitator, that won't be enough to cover it fully, but it's enough that you can swim through it easily and the other team can't. If you just need a path through it, you need even less than that amount of paint.

The point is that if you're trying to get away from someone, and a bomb was used to block a movement option, you have to paint it at least some, which makes you more vulnerable to the person you're running from. If it didn't paint as much, it would be easier to use that path again immediately after the bomb explodes, which makes it much less effective at doing its job of blocking the option. So the paint is necessary, because with less paint it can't properly cut off the path as well.

On the other hand, shrinking the indirect radius does not make it less effective blocking an option. A smaller indirect only makes it less effective at comboing after you abandon the path it blocked. Because if you don't try to use the option the bomb was thrown at, you shouldn't still be damaged for it. You might say that if you were close enough to be hit by the indirect, clearly you were trying to use that option. But that is not the case; the 30 damage radius is huge to the point that even actively avoiding the route with the splat bomb doesn't get you far enough away if you were already close to it.
Here is the indirect radius on the image from before.

It's almost as big as reefslider's one-shot hitbox. And just so we're clear that I'm not at all exaggerating:

This took several attempts to get, but the fact that it's possible at all is absurd. The fact that it can even be compared to reefslider is absurd. It's just an absurdly large hitbox in general. Entirely removing the indirect radius like I suggested before is definitely too much, but it can't stay this large. It's simply too big to get away from for how fast it explodes. Such a large 30 damage radius is entirely unnecessary.

As for the comparison to toxic mist... one, it doesn't take that much ink or time to paint over a splat bomb. It takes a second at most, except for the very worst painting weapons. You play swig; just one horizontal covers a suction bomb's paint and more. And two, I really don't understand the point of toxic mist. I don't know why it's still in the game. It is the least fun sub to fight when it works, and the only thing saving it is that it's so terrible that almost no one uses it and it almost never works when they do. It tries to control an area, but it doesn't paint and doesn't do any damage. So of course splat bomb is better than toxic mist. Almost anything would be.

I mean, seriously, do you see the paint in this image? That's a Splat Bomb. Suction Bomb paints even more than that. You aren't going to look at that flawlessly filled-in circle and tell me that's reasonable. I just want the messy perimeter's worth of radius gone and a few streaks of uninked area inside of that circle. Plus the outside splatters gone. That seems like a fair ask.

You say "that's a splat bomb" as though it doesn't cost 70% of your ink tank. Sure, it enables you to paint faster because you can throw it and continue to use your main weapon at the same time, but you'll have to stop soon to recover ink. It has strong burst paint, but weak sustained paint. I don't see what's problematic about this, outside of zones which I already talked about.

And I think it's clear I don't care if it makes bombs less fun to use or detracts from their identity. It's not like they're exactly super fun to use as of now, nor that their identities really improve the game in any way.

Defending the existence of bombs' identity in the first place will require its own post. I haven't even come close to gathering my thoughts on that, and this post is already long enough. But I do think that bombs' identity improves the game.

The change makes them much less annoying to fight, and that stands above all else in my eyes.

We clearly have different opinions about what is annoying to fight. I believe I've explained my issues with the indirect radius, in this post and earlier in the thread; what's so annoying about the paint? All I can see that you've said is special charge, zone capping, and that bombs do too many things, all of which I have offered other solutions for. (The solution for zones is to fix the mode itself.) Is there anything else I'm missing?

By the way, you said that my initial post was "mostly agreeable". What are the less agreeable parts?

 

[OnePotWonder]

You say "that's a splat bomb" as though it doesn't cost 70% of your ink tank. Sure, it enables you to paint faster because you can throw it and continue to use your main weapon at the same time, but you'll have to stop soon to recover ink. It has strong burst paint, but weak sustained paint. I don't see what's problematic about this, outside of zones which I already talked about.

You ignored the majority of my point here. Though to be fair it was a bit clouded before.

I don't think bombs' paint needs to be removed, but I do think it needs to be noticeably toned back, with all non-essential paint being removed from their coverage; the outside edge of their radius paint, the extraneous splatters, and then leaving a few streaks of uninked area inside the radius to further reduce the bombs' paint numbers. The paint does need to exist to temporarily block enemy movement following the explosion, but the paint shouldn't be able to do much of anything beyond that.

Going a step further, I think both the close/lethal explosion and paint radii of bombs should be reduced. It would overall reduce the area they're able to wall out and give other subs more breathing room to match their power level. If a bomb can control the same area as a cloud of Toxic Mist, and do it better, then what's the point of Toxic Mist conceptually? Reducing lethal bombs' splash radii does reduce their utility as combo tools, but lethal bombs are practically never used as combo tools because of how expensive they are, so it's little more than a QoL change and not really a nerf to the subs' power level.
I think that bombs' power levels do need decreasing. More importantly, weapons with bombs (shooters) generally need nerfs to their ink efficiency so bombs' literal only weakness of high ink cost means something to them.