Should Sub resistance even exist?

[Catloafman]

I've been thinking about the Sub resistance ability a lot recently and I have come to the conclusion that I really don't like this ability

While it is nice having a ability for countering sub weapons this ends up just feeling really unsatisfying all around
You hardly ever run more then 1 sub of it and the effects are really annoying for a weapon with sub-combos (like vSlosher and Blob deco)
Since unless everybody is running the ability (like they did in s2 when it worked against specials) you never really know if your combos will work or not

Im curious what other people think of this since I never really hear much talk on it

 

[OnePotWonder]

The ability is terrible. With other utility abilities, you can come up with an excuse for running more than a sub or two. If you wear a piece of gear with Sub Resistance Up as the main ability, you're going to get some weird looks.

If Nintendo wants sub weapons to do less damage or track enemies for less time, they should just change them directly. It's not difficult, especially compared to designing a scaling ability.

Also, it unnecessarily ruins Bloblobber's and Recycled Brella's Dart combos. That's where it gets personal for me.

 

[ThestralZ]

Yeah with the way it works it disproportionately affects location subs and subs that only do a little damage. I'd be ok with getting rid of it in the next game

 

[Driftwood]

I generally agree but I think this is a little complicated by the fact the sub resistance also diminishes non damaging effects, like the duration of point sensor. Splatoon 3 has gotten rid of abilities and specials that let you tank more damage with (sub defense being the only real exception) and the game seems to be better for it. And I do think getting rid of the damage reduction makes sense, but the ability to reduce the detection effects of some subs still seems like it has a place in the game. I don't know if there is a good way to do both though (which is probably why sub defense still exists in the first place).

 

[Rat L. Boy]

Couldn’t they just bring back Cold Blooded to keep the detection reduction?

 

[Catloafman]

Couldn’t they just bring back Cold Blooded to keep the detection reduction?

Cold blooded might be too niche maybe they could make ninja squid lower location effects by a bit but idk

 

[vitellary]

yea i was saying this in the general ability system thread last night, sub resist just serves no purpose and feels like a non-commital solution to bombs having good combos. bombs should have good combos i think, but if you want them not to, then just commit to it and make fizzy do 32 damage instead of 35, or something. i think even the niche utility of reducing location effects is really not worth the ability existing in the game, and reducing location isn't even necessarily good for the game either anyway. maybe it'd be obnoxious if someone is running a lot of sub power up, but like, you could also argue sub power up doesn't need to exist either (really its only an interesting ability for beakon)

 

[1nfa]

I would have to say I agree and disagree. I agree that it feels super eh, I think the issue is that it doesn't stack super well and small amounts are useless outside of niches. If it stacked better it'd be nice, but even now it stacks better than I remember. 1.1 sub power lets you tank live 4 bomb indirects. If you want to invest into anti bomb things I think its nice, and its a needed ability for the sake of making sure quad vjr doesn't cause issues. But it also feels like its nicher than it has to be

 

[vitellary]

...and its a needed ability for the sake of making sure quad vjr doesn't cause issues.

see the thing is, if this is an actual issue then the solution should just be nerfing splat bomb directly. if we're assuming solo queue then you aren't going to know that you're about to face quad jr until it happens, and the player shouldn't be expected to have to run sub resist all the time just to account for the possibility of running into a dumb comp

that's assuming both that quad jr is a problem in the first place, and assuming sub resist actually does anything to stop that from being effective, and neither of those things are true i think. quad jr is a very exploitable comp (though it can feel rough at lower levels, i get it), and if their plan is just to throw bombs the entire time, then you can just like... dodge them, idk. sub resist doesn't actually make that strategy any less effective, since it doesn't stop the bombs from being lethal, and it's not like the leading cause of death in those kinds of games is repeated 30-damage chipping you down

basically i think it's inaccurate to claim that sub resist actually does anything to counterplay supposed "unskillful strategies" like bomb spam. you're gonna have to play around the bombs either way. it just makes actual skillful use of damage combos less reliable, which isn't fun for the people trying to use their sub weapons for more than just spamming them

 

[TheBearProphet]

Cold blooded might be too niche maybe they could make ninja squid lower location effects by a bit but idk

Ninja Squid is already very popular and has a pretty strong ability. While it fits best thematically they may need to cut back on ninja squid in other ways if they do that. It might be better to add it to things that could use a bump, but idk what that would look like since the two most thantic candidates (Ninja and Stealth Jump) are already very popular.

 

[1nfa]

basically i think it's inaccurate to claim that sub resist actually does anything to counterplay supposed "unskillful strategies" like bomb spam. you're gonna have to play around the bombs either way. it just makes actual skillful use of damage combos less reliable, which isn't fun for the people trying to use their sub weapons for more than just spamming them

Sorry I was doing a scrim/review and didn't have time to respond before going to bed. I think the issue with this statement is assuming its unskillful. It's different, but it is a teams style. It doesn't make sense to nerf everyone for one style, when you can give options of counterplay via gear.

While yes you do have to play around the bombs either way, but if you can play just outside of the lethal radius you can quickly push to abuse the fact that they burned their tank to throw bombs. There are reasons to where you'd want it to not die to chip from multiple bombs.

I'm gonna add as someone who plays a lot of chip comps in my free time, bomb splash damage is a threat and gets kills. It doesn't even have to be chip from main weapons, but the continued pressure from bombs and not being able to fully heal does lead to kills. And if you wanna get into quad burst comps(which are a crime) then it helps even more. If you can live two directs in that kind of comp you can live assuming they don't target you, and if you do in a comp setting they used 3/8 burst bombs. Your team can quickly clean up kills on weapons who have no ink. The thing with it however is that you don't just nerf burst bomb because its an option, you use the counterplay from gear to make sure everyone has options and don't feel bad for just playing what they want to.

 

[Norilla]

In Splatoon 2, I think Bomb Defense certainly had a use, since it also effected specials and weapons actually had bombs. Sub Defense in Splatoon 3 doesn't have a lot of use, since it doesn't work for specials, and there's not as many bombs on weapons with the kits in this game.

 

[Yosi Spring]

Sub Defense could be cool if they turned it into a main-exclusive ability instead of a stacking ability.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Sub Defense could be cool if they turned it into a main-exclusive ability instead of a stacking ability.

Not wrong. Considering it’s basically a sub-exclusive ability right now, it’d be better to remove the stackability anyway.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Sub Defense could be cool if they turned it into a main-exclusive ability instead of a stacking ability.

Maybe go back to S1 main-exclusive inkres as well
although both would probably need buffs to warrant using 10ap on either

 

[Dessgeega]

Side Order has had the unfortunate side effect of revealing just how flimsy and incremental most abilities are.

On a run earlier I took a splat bomb to the face and lived. If sub resistance let you survive something like that, even if it required a large amount, I'd be all for it. As it is, sub resistance kinda died with Splatoon 2. As I recall, bomb defense's (as it was called then) main use was preventing ink armor from being broken by random burst bombs. With ink armor gone, the most it does is prevent death from chip damage. It still has it's uses but it's definitely not as prevalent as it used to be.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Side Order has had the unfortunate side effect of revealing just how flimsy and incremental most abilities are.

On a run earlier I took a splat bomb to the face and lived. If sub resistance let you survive something like that, even if it required a large amount, I'd be all for it. As it is, sub resistance kinda died with Splatoon 2. As I recall, bomb defense's (as it was called then) main use was preventing ink armor from being broken by random burst bombs. With ink armor gone, the most it does is prevent death from chip damage. It still has it's uses but it's definitely not as prevalent as it used to be.

The main appeal of Bomb Defense Up DX was to prevent the splash radius of every bomb from breaking Ink Armor, and more notably, to reduce Tenta Missiles' damage so their outside radius didn't break armor, and their inside radius didn't two-shot (exactly 50 damage). This also affected Baller and Inkjet, since they also did exactly 50 damage. Really, Inkjet is the most buffed special of all time.

 

[RubberCF]

I've been thinking about the Sub resistance ability a lot recently and I have come to the conclusion that I really don't like this ability

While it is nice having a ability for countering sub weapons this ends up just feeling really unsatisfying all around
You hardly ever run more then 1 sub of it and the effects are really annoying for a weapon with sub-combos (like vSlosher and Blob deco)
Since unless everybody is running the ability (like they did in s2 when it worked against specials) you never really know if your combos will work or not

Im curious what other people think of this since I never really hear much talk on it

No, it shouldnt. Abilities general should not significantly affect things people depemd on behaving a certain way in fights. Its ok that ink efficiency and mobility is effected by abilities, bc that is not something people depend on being a certain way in fights, but if certain combos dont work bc of it, thats super annoying. Outside of DOT effects (damage over time) abilities should not affect dmg ever. Its not a very fun ability to use either

 

[Dessgeega]

No, it shouldnt. Abilities general should not significantly affect things people depemd on behaving a certain way in fights. Its ok that ink efficiency and mobility is effected by abilities, bc that is not something people depend on being a certain way in fights, but if certain combos dont work bc of it, thats super annoying. Outside of DOT effects (damage over time) abilities should not affect dmg ever. Its not a very fun ability to use either

Sounds like you would've had a miserable time back on Splatoon 1.

 

[RubberCF]

Sounds like you would've had a miserable time back on Splatoon 1.

Oh probably so
S1 abilities seem like a nightmare, they even stacked weirdly, instead of the diminishing returns we are used to