The Problem With Bombs

[OnePotWonder]

I've been doing a fair amount of thinking about sub weapon balance recently, particularly in the area of Toxic Mist versus bombs. Why are bombs so much better at controlling space when Toxic Mist can block off an area for more than twice as long? I figured out the answer; it's paint. Bombs paint the area they're denying once their duration expires, meaning that in order to move through the bomb's space, you have to re-paint it. Compare that to Toxic Mist, which will likely be painted over by the time its duration runs out. Bombs' paint is way has kept them firmly above everything else in the sub weapon tier list to the point where I had a curious thought.

I thought, "Splat Bomb would probably be just as good as Toxic Mist if its lethal damage radius didn't exist." And the more I thought about it, the more I came to realize that it was a pretty accurate statement.
You can see where this is going. Bombs would be more balanced compared to other sub weapons if they didn't do lethal damage.

Splat Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 180 to 70.

Suction Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 180 to 85.

Autobomb
Direct damage reduced from 180 to 70.

Curling Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 180 to 70.
Now explodes on contact with enemy players.

Burst Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 60 to 45.
Close indirect damage reduced from 35 to 30.
Distant indirect damage radius removed.
Ink cost reduced to 40%.

Torpedo
Direct damage reduced from 60 to 45.
Indirect damage reduced from 35 to 30.
Explosive pellet damage reduced from 12 to 10.

Fizzy Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 50 to 35.
Indirect damage radius removed.
Direct damage radius increased by 20%.

With these changes, the lethal bombs become far less mandatory in team compositions, while Curling Bomb gets a decent-counter buff with new high damage combo potential. The changes to Burst Bomb and Torpedo leave most of their main weapon combos intact, with the only exceptions being Goo Tuber (which has a better second kit) and Carbon Roller Deco (which shouldn't have had that combo in the first place). Fizzy Bomb becomes far less lethal without completely losing its ability to splat an enemy that gets caught in all three of its explosions.

Alternatively:

Splat Bomb, Suction Bomb, Autobomb
Direct damage radius reduced by 15%.

Curling Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 180 to 70.
Now explodes on contact with enemy players.

Burst Bomb
Distant indirect damage radius removed.
Ink cost reduced to 40%.

Torpedo
Explosive pellet damage reduced from 12 to 10.

Fizzy Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 50 to 45.
Indirect damage reduced from 35 to 30.

Bombs' lethal or combo damage combined with their paint will always make them better than sub weapons that don't have either. Every sub weapon should have a use case over bombs, and if they want to directly compete with them, they need the tools to do so. Bombs could definitely be toned down as much as I suggested in my first set of changes, but the second set is obviously meant to be more reasonable.

Lastly, here are some changes for non-bombs to help them compete:

Toxic Mist
When the mist's duration runs out it covers turf with patchy ink.
Constantly slows by 30% and drains 10% of the ink tank per second.

Point Sensor
Passing through the border of the tracking cloud deals 30 damage.

Angle Shooter
Trail damage increased from 0 to 30.
Direct damage increased from 40 to 45.
Pierces through enemy players.
etc..

Sprinkler
HP increased from 120 to 200.
Ink cost reduced to 55%.

Thank you for reading and feel free to discuss below.
Have a wonderful day.
I'm on a roll lately, aren't I?

 

[Algae]

Interesting ideas, especially since you could still trap and/or combo a slower player in a small puddle of ink if you place a faster bomb right.
I think that having a well-made Mist without paint or damage is possible, but its effects do need to strengthen quickly enough for passing through it to put you at a combat disadvantage.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Yes. If splat bomb couldn't do lethal damage, it would be about as good as one of the most underwhelming subs in the game. Not sure why that's the target you set for yourself. If you use it to force someone into you so you can shoot them, they could just... not. Not to mention that squid rolling would completely negate the damage.

I see where you're going with your alternate changes, but I honestly don't see the point of nerfing bombs. I would much rather the other sub weapons be buffed to the point where there are reasons for them to be wanted over bombs, rather than nerfing the bombs. They are supposed to be versatile and work with a wide variety of main weapons; utility subs are not. But they should be as good as bombs, specifically for the weapons that want them.

I'll put my thoughts on the individual subs below.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Yes. If splat bomb couldn't do lethal damage, it would be about as good as one of the most underwhelming subs in the game. Not sure why that's the target you set for yourself. If you use it to force someone into you so you can shoot them, they could just... not. Not to mention that squid rolling would completely negate the damage.

And these are bad things how...? Being able to completely cut off an opponent's escape is more than any other sub weapon in the game is able to do, and it's unnecessarily powerful. Parrying a bomb with a Squid Roll is hard and should be rewarding.

Every nerf to a strong weapon is a QoL change for everyone that doesn't use it. I'm looking from the perspective of someone who spends a lot more time dealing with bombs than playing off of them, and the way I look at it bombs are too strong.

I see where you're going with your alternate changes, but I honestly don't see the point of nerfing bombs. I would much rather the other sub weapons be buffed to the point where there are reasons for them to be wanted over bombs, rather than nerfing the bombs. They are supposed to be versatile and work with a wide variety of main weapons; utility subs are not. But they should be as good as bombs, specifically for the weapons that want them.

Well, first of all, buffing utility subs to the point where they're as good as bombs is simultaneously a herculean and sisyphean task. Genuinely, how do you make Point Sensor worth picking over current Burst Bomb on more than three weapons without completely altering the sub weapon's core identity? You don't. You would have to make Toxic Mist a 50% slow or more for it to stand on the same ground as bombs, and that's just not fun.

Secondly, Nintendo cannot design kits. No splatlings have Splash Wall or Squid Beakon. Toxic Mist is on Tri-Slosher and Splatana Stamper. Squid Beakon is on four close-range weapons. Utility subs need to be more versatile in order to not completely kill the terrible kits they invariably get put on. Bombs will always be versatile no matter how much they get nerfed.

Nerfing bombs makes everything much, much easier, and fighting bombs is immensely annoying. You'd have to have taken a debate class to even have a chance of coming up with a convincing argument for leaving bombs the way they are.

I'll put my thoughts on the individual subs below.

I look forward to this.

 

[Algae]

Secondly, Nintendo cannot design kits. ...

I'm must ask what's irrevocably bad about "ratting" weapons with Squid Beakon; that combination gives the sub an individualistic use case (and can place the beakons far enough for friends to flank as well. (Even if enemies can always disrupt boldly-snuck beakons, it's enough of a skill-check to be enjoyable to many casual players.) If Toxic Mist's slowing effect is better-balanced, weapons that are aim-intensive by virtue of their long range can hit opponents more easily.

I'm not too sure about sending blame for a single game's flaws to a corporate "entity" as widespread as Nintendo, but there are other kit decisions that grind my gears: Slosher, Brella, and Ttek are so close-up that Tristrike makes them a sitting duck while in main fighting position. Vanilla Carbon Roller does not have Torpedo, which can be rolled like a weird Burst Bomb. Sprinkler will always expose the weaknesses of support-oriented weapons like Bloblobber and Aerospray. Splash Wall should've been given to Tri-Stringer instead of the REEF-LUX that has Squiffer's charge abilities. The fair-range Gold Dynamo and Foil Flingza Roller are held back by the most ink-hungry bombs. (And Suction Bomb is slow for an Octobrush's mediocre brush range and agility. Same goes for the kits' Splat 2 counterparts.) However, I do find the flaws in sub balance more prominent: there's barely a way for Point Sensor's design to stand as is.

 

[SAMICOM]

I've been doing a fair amount of thinking about sub weapon balance recently, particularly in the area of Toxic Mist versus bombs. Why are bombs so much better at controlling space when Toxic Mist can block off an area for more than twice as long? I figured out the answer; it's paint. Bombs paint the area they're denying once their duration expires, meaning that in order to move through the bomb's space, you have to re-paint it. Compare that to Toxic Mist, which will likely be painted over by the time its duration runs out. Bombs' paint is way has kept them firmly above everything else in the sub weapon tier list to the point where I had a curious thought.

I thought, "Splat Bomb would probably be just as good as Toxic Mist if its lethal damage radius didn't exist." And the more I thought about it, the more I came to realize that it was a pretty accurate statement.
You can see where this is going. Bombs would be more balanced compared to other sub weapons if they didn't do lethal damage.

Splat Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 180 to 70.

Suction Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 180 to 85.

Autobomb
Direct damage reduced from 180 to 70.

Curling Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 180 to 70.
Now explodes on contact with enemy players.

Burst Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 60 to 45.
Close indirect damage reduced from 35 to 30.
Distant indirect damage radius removed.
Ink cost reduced to 40%.

Torpedo
Direct damage reduced from 60 to 45.
Indirect damage reduced from 35 to 30.
Explosive pellet damage reduced from 12 to 10.

Fizzy Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 50 to 35.
Indirect damage radius removed.
Direct damage radius increased by 20%.

With these changes, the lethal bombs become far less mandatory in team compositions, while Curling Bomb gets a decent-counter buff with new high damage combo potential. The changes to Burst Bomb and Torpedo leave most of their main weapon combos intact, with the only exceptions being Goo Tuber (which has a better second kit) and Carbon Roller Deco (which shouldn't have had that combo in the first place). Fizzy Bomb becomes far less lethal without completely losing its ability to splat an enemy that gets caught in all three of its explosions.

Alternatively:

Splat Bomb, Suction Bomb, Autobomb
Direct damage radius reduced by 15%.

Curling Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 180 to 70.
Now explodes on contact with enemy players.

Burst Bomb
Distant indirect damage radius removed.
Ink cost reduced to 40%.

Torpedo
Explosive pellet damage reduced from 12 to 10.

Fizzy Bomb
Direct damage reduced from 50 to 45.
Indirect damage reduced from 35 to 30.

Bombs' lethal or combo damage combined with their paint will always make them better than sub weapons that don't have either. Every sub weapon should have a use case over bombs, and if they want to directly compete with them, they need the tools to do so. Bombs could definitely be toned down as much as I suggested in my first set of changes, but the second set is obviously meant to be more reasonable.

Lastly, here are some changes for non-bombs to help them compete:

Toxic Mist
When the mist's duration runs out it covers turf with patchy ink.
Constantly slows by 30% and drains 10% of the ink tank per second.

Point Sensor
Passing through the border of the tracking cloud deals 30 damage.

Angle Shooter
Trail damage increased from 0 to 30.
Direct damage increased from 40 to 45.
Pierces through enemy players.
etc..

Sprinkler
HP increased from 120 to 200.
Ink cost reduced to 55%.

Thank you for reading and feel free to discuss below.
Have a wonderful day.
I'm on a roll lately, aren't I?

i prefer the second ideas tbh. would balance it,

 

[Mp3]

I think they should stay the same ngl like slight damage reduction on splatbomb but not that much

 

[Masked_Katz]

To build off my past posts and those here, I think it would be more appropriate and appreciated if the underdog subs were buffed instead of nerfing the supposedly overpowered subs. I've been thinking about the "your audience is good at recognizing problems and bad at solving them" phrase lately, and while that does not invalidate ideas for solutions such as this, I feel like it would be a lot easier and less risky to give instead of take away. Make the bad subs better, don't make the whole game worse.

Also, I have seen a couple of times now where you clarify that something simply being more annoying or versatile than usual, rather than actually overpowered, is enough to be changed - and while your intention may be to make a simple change to make something more consistent with the rest of the game's content, I find that you actually gut them more than you realize. A sub usually dictates if someone will pick up or main a weapon's kit, so making bombs just no longer do what bombs are supposed to do will break a lot of tactics and playstyles and just cause more issues to worry about.

EDIT: This is about the initial changes; I find your alternative ideas are actually realistic and could see myself getting behind.

 

[OnePotWonder]

EDIT: This is about the initial changes; I find your alternative ideas are actually realistic and could see myself getting behind.

I realized it’s a lot easier if I put my unedited opinions and actual suggestions in the same post. It saves time, space, and me from having to justify my thought processes nearly as much.

 

[isaac4]

I'm surprised there weren't any changes made to the paint from the explosions themselves.
I was at least expecting something for Fizzy but it seems like the focus here was to reduce their kill potential which makes sense.
It does make me wonder what would actually change if the paint radius from bomb subs were drastically nerfed.
Regardless, this was still an interesting thread to read through.

 

[OnePotWonder]

I'm surprised there weren't any changes made to the paint from the explosions themselves.
I was at least expecting something for Fizzy but it seems like the focus here was to reduce their kill potential which makes sense.
It does make me wonder what would actually change if the paint radius from bomb subs were drastically nerfed.
Regardless, this was still an interesting thread to read through.

The issue with nerfing bombs' paint is the same as the issue with buffing utility subs to the level of bombs; it's really difficult.
However, the lethal radius nerfs to Splat Bomb, Suction Bomb, and Autobomb in the secondary set of changes also affect their paint radii, for what that's worth.

 

[DzNutsKong]

I realistically don't think bombs need nerfed but it's for reasons that I don't think it'd be super important to bring up for the sake of this thread, but a funny nerf or idea for a new bomb that I thought up a while ago - imagine if instead of a bomb one-shotting, it instead gave you a crazy amount of knockback? If you've ever seen an E-Liter snipe someone who had Ink Armor in Splatoon 2, think about that, except with the target moving away from the center of the bomb's blast radius. There would still be legitimate threat, it would still keep people out of areas, and it would still force people out from behind cover. But it would now force players throwing them to be ready to follow on them or would force more thoughtful bomb placement to push people in the right direction.

Plus imagine how funny it'd be to read someone's movement super hard, throw a bomb at someone by a ledge, and then knock them directly into the water

 

[isaac4]

I realistically don't think bombs need nerfed but it's for reasons that I don't think it'd be super important to bring up for the sake of this thread, but a funny nerf or idea for a new bomb that I thought up a while ago - imagine if instead of a bomb one-shotting, it instead gave you a crazy amount of knockback? If you've ever seen an E-Liter snipe someone who had Ink Armor in Splatoon 2, think about that, except with the target moving away from the center of the bomb's blast radius. There would still be legitimate threat, it would still keep people out of areas, and it would still force people out from behind cover. But it would now force players throwing them to be ready to follow on them or would force more thoughtful bomb placement to push people in the right direction.

Plus imagine how funny it'd be to read someone's movement super hard, throw a bomb at someone by a ledge, and then knock them directly into the water

If Angle Shooter did that instead I would actually love it.

 

[OnePotWonder]

If Angle Shooter did that instead I would actually love it.

Why not both?