thoughts on custom kits becoming a thing in splat 4?

[KibryHouse]

An issue brought up with custom kits is stuff like "but then subs like mist or sensor will never be used!"
The solution to this is to make them worth using then. Buff them.
Another solution is to have R be the button for the bomb you select, and L be the button you use for any other sub you choose (Wall, Mist, Marker, Beakon, etc)

 

[vitellary]

An issue brought up with custom kits is stuff like "but then subs like mist or sensor will never be used!"
The solution to this is to make them worth using then. Buff them.
Another solution is to have R be the button for the bomb you select, and L be the button you use for any other sub you choose (Wall, Mist, Marker, Beakon, etc)

yeah i do like the idea of getting two subweapons per kit, would definitely allow the more niche options to be worth picking (though needless to say the worse subs should still get buffed either way)
i don't think it's really necessary to strictly split them into categories of "bomb" and "utility" and limit you to one each, since like. idk if someone wants to have both a splat bomb and a suction bomb i think we could let them, it doesn't really sound like it'd be particularly advantageous anyway. maybe there's a case to be made that fizzy/burst bomb + a lethal bomb would be too good but you'd have to deal with ink management pretty strongly if you wanna get value out of both of those so it could be fine

 

[KibryHouse]

yeah i do like the idea of getting two subweapons per kit, would definitely allow the more niche options to be worth picking (though needless to say the worse subs should still get buffed either way)
i don't think it's really necessary to strictly split them into categories of "bomb" and "utility" and limit you to one each, since like. idk if someone wants to have both a splat bomb and a suction bomb i think we could let them, it doesn't really sound like it'd be particularly advantageous anyway. maybe there's a case to be made that fizzy/burst bomb + a lethal bomb would be too good but you'd have to deal with ink management pretty strongly if you wanna get value out of both of those so it could be fine

I guess letting them choose two bombs wouldn't hurt (I'd be a bit worried about it because of LDE, though). I was just thinking of splitting between bomb and utility would allow utility subs more time to shine, and give some aggressive weapons a more supportive option.

 

[Joy]

counterpoint: this seems like a good thing to me? obviously it'd be hard but it would definitely be possible to flatten the quality floor and ceiling of weapons.

I have a pet theory that aerospray is designed to be bad. It has the highest paint output in the game, and the designers felt it important to try and make it clear that painting, while important, isn’t the single most important attribute in a weapon. It’s directly comparable to Jr, which has been given to players at the start every game, which allows players to put two and two together and learn something deeper about the game all by themselves. Being chained to making every weapon equally “strong” would make teaching by design an impossibility.

Additionally, strong means different things at different skill levels. Stamper performs incredibly at top level, but consistently has among the lowest winrate among all weapons in Sheldon’s Sampler Challenge (as it doesn’t allow players to pick their weapon, over thousands of matches player preferences, biases, and skill levels cancel out making winrate in this challenge a really good proxy for skill floor). On the flip side, both aerosprays consistently perform well in the challenge. By not being chained to a homogenous power level, they’re able to create weapons that end up creating different metas at different skill levels, knowing that the power might not scale all the way to the top.

Lastly, even if you decide that only top top competitive players are worth designing for, making the skill floor and ceiling converge would make for a boring experience, where the learning curve looks exactly the same for every weapon. If it doesn’t, you end up with lower diversity as players converge on the weapons with the highest skill ceiling. At least now, they can create strong kits to give an incentive for players to select weaker weapons. They don’t always get it right, granted.

i don't think sprinkler being bad is making splatoon 3 have less restricted design, it just means there's less weapons they can acceptably put sprinkler on

You’ve put the cart before the horse: sprinkler being bad doesn’t make splatoon 3 have less restricted design, splatoon 3 having less restricted design allows for sprinkler to exist.

and, unless i misunderstand what you mean by "pairwise kit relationships", i don't think there's much consideration for that in the current splatoon games anyway, at least in terms of whole kits. most of the time when they nerf/buff weapons it feels like it's addressing the weapon as a whole rather than its particular kits (eg. nzap buff feels less like it was "let's make the n-zap 85 stronger" and moreso "i think the n-zap is a weaker main weapon than splattershot right now let's buff it")

We don’t know what data they’re looking at when they make specific balance decisions, but assuming they’re looking at something you’re not when they make confusing choices is a good start. For example, the ballpoint nerf could’ve been because the developers saw it was a little too strong in certain matchups. I one trick a weapon so I wish I had more examples of “confusing but might be explainable through a different lens”

BUT it's fun to think about how it could work, since i do not believe the concept is inherently flawed at all. it would just take a lot of consideration and creativity to figure out how you balance a game like that to make it work

I suppose I’m more pragmatic here, the reality is that the developers enabling custom kits would make the job of balancing extremely difficult, and if it’s proposed as the solution to lack of balance when the current system only has to look at 110 options… it’d be like trying to have a baby to save the failing relationship.

 

[vitellary]

all very fair points honestly. i think the way i'm envisioning it, a game with custom kits would be a pretty insistently non-competitive game. it's kinda like smash with items on, to me. a game like that could be extremely fun casually, and i think it could exist and be balanced enough that, at least within solo queue, you don't have an overwhelming meta that makes the game boring. competitive probably would end up being boring in the end either way, since i agree that both options for dealing with skill ceilings would make it not work very well at top level (you either level them out and there's no reason to learn anything hard, or you don't and teams are composed of 4 stampers with varying kits). i think if they were to do it it would be presented less like "SPLATOON 4!!!" and more like a spinoff kinda game that's more casually focused, idk. but it probably won't happen and i'll simply be left to imagine what it could be like to choose fizzy+inkjet on any weapon

 

[Joy]

would make a hell of a fun challenge mode that’s for sure

If they made it more available anyway

 

[WIP Riley]

i realized, especially with this last balance patch, that the devs would not be able to keep up with the balance changes they would need to do if the introduce customizable kits. there would be a few weapons with better synergy with the better subs and specials than any other and they would not be able to keep up with having to balance the game. unless game balance and competitive is what they want to focus on in the next game, but i doubt it.

Yeah no custom kits are a horrible idea, aerospray and tenta missles is not a thing I want to exist

Imagine how ****ty this game would be if the only specials you see are zooka and cooler because that's what's meta

 

[vitellary]

oh yeah it goes without saying customizable kits in this game is a 0% chance and a very bad idea lol it could only work in an environment with a VERY carefully selected list of specials

 

[mossyquartz]

I like custom kits as a concept but I don't think they'd work in practice. Not just because of balance, but also what's stopping players from picking whatever's meta. If you take the current meta for example, every lobby would have 6 zookas or coolers. Part of the fun is the variety in kits and playstyles!

However, I think they could be a really cool addition to PBs! As a content creator, sometimes I wanna show off kit ideas or I wanna play around with ideas, and it'd be really cool to have that feature

 

[Sαlsα⇒]

i think a better alternative to custom kits would be alternative subs and/or specials per weapons, instead of having alternate kits for every new sub/special, have alternate subs/specials tied to one kit however the subs/specials correspond to playstyle (are are hopefully balanced in equal states so you arent always choosing 1>the other)

for example: Shot could have a more support focused kit with for examples sake fizzy and storm with alternate sub/special of suction + vac
this means vshot is the support focused kit and can have 4 different support combinations, keeping diversity up (if thesubs/specials we're somewhat equally balanced)... therefore Ttek can have the agro kit with say splatbomb zooka + burst bomb kraken for example

this also gives use for unused specials and subs as if you want a support weapon, they're going to have more support focused subs aswell, meaning we SHOULD in theory see more use of sprinklers, beakons and etc on weapons that may have a lethal bomb in current game (this is due to weapons like zap still most likely being picked due to special output from the weapon despite subs > something like dynamo which may have fizzy and the same special) plus this reduces bomb spam as supports would probably only have suction as lethal bomb which is quite ink hungry (LDE doesnt exist + sure fizzy can kill but its more for paint output + it got an ink consumption nerf in this argument)

i think this system would be interesting in an actual instalment of the game as it forces certain playstyles onto weapons but still gives more options and increases special/sub diversity due to the restrictions and certain subs/specials just not being available to certain playstyle categories (it may also depend on the weapon, like weapons that need a fizzy for example to function decently despite support kit may have a higher likely hood to get fizzy than say something like zap which doesnt neeed fizzy, therefore will get subs that arent bombs like beakon or autobomb.... is autobomb more support or agro? could it be abused in support weapons? lmk what yall think of autobombs placement along with the rest of the post)

 

[missingno]

On paper, kits allow the devs to explore some interesting design spaces by balancing weapons around their kits. They can pick and choose which synergies are allowed to exist, so we can have Burst Bombs without having S1 Slosher. Weapons can be forced into more aggressive, defensive, or supportive roles by their kit. They can deliberately have a strong main, sub, or special be weighed down by another piece being weaker. It's a cool concept that exists for a reason.

In practice though, they've done such a bad job balancing this that I do think there's an argument to be made for just throwing it all out and starting over. It's very frustrating how every time we see new kits revealed each season, we immediately know that half of them are garbage. The uncertainty of whether or not we'll ever see third kits give those weapons another chance sucks too. And it also just feels bad as a player if you can't find any kit you like all three parts of!

If Splatoon 4 were to allow custom kits, it would be a very different game as a result and they would have to rebalance it around that fact. I don't know if that would come out better, but the status quo is frustrating enough that I'm open to experimenting here. At the very least, it would solve the dilemma of players feeling bad about not having a kit they 100% like, which I think is a strong enough argument in favor.

Burst Bombs would probably have to be straight up removed in order for this to happen.

 

[WIP Riley]

On paper, kits allow the devs to explore some interesting design spaces by balancing weapons around their kits. They can pick and choose which synergies are allowed to exist, so we can have Burst Bombs without having S1 Slosher. Weapons can be forced into more aggressive, defensive, or supportive roles by their kit. They can deliberately have a strong main, sub, or special be weighed down by another piece being weaker. It's a cool concept that exists for a reason.

In practice though, they've done such a bad job balancing this that I do think there's an argument to be made for just throwing it all out and starting over. It's very frustrating how every time we see new kits revealed each season, we immediately know that half of them are garbage. The uncertainty of whether or not we'll ever see third kits give those weapons another chance sucks too. And it also just feels bad as a player if you can't find any kit you like all three parts of!

If Splatoon 4 were to allow custom kits, it would be a very different game as a result and they would have to rebalance it around that fact. I don't know if that would come out better, but the status quo is frustrating enough that I'm open to experimenting here. At the very least, it would solve the dilemma of players feeling bad about not having a kit they 100% like, which I think is a strong enough argument in favor.

Burst Bombs would probably have to be straight up removed in order for this to happen.

Not only burst bombs but a big chunk of subs and specials, I don't want to play burst zooka on every weapond

 

[Winky!]

i realized, especially with this last balance patch, that the devs would not be able to keep up with the balance changes they would need to do if the introduce customizable kits. there would be a few weapons with better synergy with the better subs and specials than any other and they would not be able to keep up with having to balance the game. unless game balance and competitive is what they want to focus on in the next game, but i doubt it.

I don't want custom kits tbh,part of what makes weapons interesting are the comps you can make given the weapons set,if everyone had the ability to just give themselves whatever they want, everyone would have something like burst/retake special, we don't need custom kits,just enough 3rd kits..

(Custom kits as a pb mode would be very cool and I wonder how tournaments would utilise them if at all)

 

[Lemonquack]

Everyone’s saying it, but having a mode for this in pb’s or a challenge or something is the best way to go. Rather, if they want to answer the calls for custom kits, there’s two options. 1- make something along the lines of “kit pools” where there’s a set of 2-3 subs and specials you can mix and match to your liking per weapon. Or 2 (my favorite)- make it so that every weapon gets both a lethal bomb AND a utility sub for part of its kit. Therefore allowing for more interesting kits, but not cracking the game wide open

 

[WhatTheDevin]

i think a better alternative to custom kits would be alternative subs and/or specials per weapons, instead of having alternate kits for every new sub/special, have alternate subs/specials tied to one kit however the subs/specials correspond to playstyle (are are hopefully balanced in equal states so you arent always choosing 1>the other)

If I'm understanding right, you could, for example, take 3 kits of a weapon and combine them into a single "Flex Kit" where you can choose between any of the subs or specials of the kits you combined?
This sounds like a really cool compromise that allows the freedom people want from custom kits, while still creating restrictions for the devs to balance around. I mean, 2 options for subs and specials = 4 different kits to choose from, and 3 options for each gives 9 kits. And we've all had that moment where we see a weapon we like get a kit where one piece is the best thing we could ever hope for, but the other piece is so terrible that it's hard to convince yourself to use it. Flex kits sidestep that issue altogether!

 

[Oliy]

The thing is custom kits totally can and I would argue should be a thing, it just requires the devs to balance mains subs and specials all in a meaningful way which is a logistical nightmare compared to "just make a few sets on every weapon and force the players to adapt". The devs could totally do it with proper resources and dedication, but Splatoon's business model doesn't really encourage it.

Here's hoping we'll see a battle royale mode with weapon pickups that act like custom kits though :P

 

[DzNutsKong]

Haven't read through the replies to this thread so I apologize if I'm just repeating what's already been said but I think it'd work great as a challenge, and it'd be great if all challenges were toggleable in private battles. Challenges as a whole are meant to be goofy changes-of-pace that mess with a lot of the intended design of Splatoon gameplay and I think challenges would be great for that. People can get their Burst Bomb Sloshers and stuff while letting people just pop in and join a match without prior planning with other people (for a limited time, since that's how challenges are, anyways) and without forcing everyone to deal with the sudden shift in game design.

 

[Sαlsα⇒]

If I'm understanding right, you could, for example, take 3 kits of a weapon and combine them into a single "Flex Kit" where you can choose between any of the subs or specials of the kits you combined?
This sounds like a really cool compromise that allows the freedom people want from custom kits, while still creating restrictions for the devs to balance around. I mean, 2 options for subs and specials = 4 different kits to choose from, and 3 options for each gives 9 kits. And we've all had that moment where we see a weapon we like get a kit where one piece is the best thing we could ever hope for, but the other piece is so terrible that it's hard to convince yourself to use it. Flex kits sidestep that issue altogether!

Yeah exactly! and each flexkit can be designed to fit under one role like support or slayer so it allows for even more options for each weapon

 

[MintyMisc]

i think a better alternative to custom kits would be alternative subs and/or specials per weapons, instead of having alternate kits for every new sub/special, have alternate subs/specials tied to one kit however the subs/specials correspond to playstyle (are are hopefully balanced in equal states so you arent always choosing 1>the other)

for example: Shot could have a more support focused kit with for examples sake fizzy and storm with alternate sub/special of suction + vac
this means vshot is the support focused kit and can have 4 different support combinations, keeping diversity up (if thesubs/specials we're somewhat equally balanced)... therefore Ttek can have the agro kit with say splatbomb zooka + burst bomb kraken for example

this also gives use for unused specials and subs as if you want a support weapon, they're going to have more support focused subs aswell, meaning we SHOULD in theory see more use of sprinklers, beakons and etc on weapons that may have a lethal bomb in current game (this is due to weapons like zap still most likely being picked due to special output from the weapon despite subs > something like dynamo which may have fizzy and the same special) plus this reduces bomb spam as supports would probably only have suction as lethal bomb which is quite ink hungry (LDE doesnt exist + sure fizzy can kill but its more for paint output + it got an ink consumption nerf in this argument)

i think this system would be interesting in an actual instalment of the game as it forces certain playstyles onto weapons but still gives more options and increases special/sub diversity due to the restrictions and certain subs/specials just not being available to certain playstyle categories (it may also depend on the weapon, like weapons that need a fizzy for example to function decently despite support kit may have a higher likely hood to get fizzy than say something like zap which doesnt neeed fizzy, therefore will get subs that arent bombs like beakon or autobomb.... is autobomb more support or agro? could it be abused in support weapons? lmk what yall think of autobombs placement along with the rest of the post)

I thought up basically the same idea a while ago, and made this quick pic to show the idea visually. I'd imagine you'd do it this way, or even just keep it to picking between two subs and always having the same special, in order to keep things balanced. You would also likely have different special costs for each setup, to account for the sub, due to some subs, like fizzy, being able to farm for special a lot faster than something like suction, as well as subs that just don't paint.
You also need to consider: how is this shown in game? do you get to see everyone's choices at the top of the screen somewhere on their icons during matches? and how much visual clutter does this introduce? How do we easily teach players about this? There's probably a massive list of issues that I haven't even considered, and the whole system would probably be difficult to properly implement in a way that is both balanced, fun, and easy for casuals & new players to quickly understand. I think it'd just be better to simply have more kits, rather than trying to make a whole new kit system. Therefore, the question could potentially be: do we want less time given to potential single player dlc in the future, and be given more kits instead? There's probably a good balance between the 2 somewhere, but it's probably impossible to know what splatoon 4 will look like, especially at this point.

 

[Sαlsα⇒]

I thought up basically the same idea a while ago, and made this quick pic to show the idea visually. I'd imagine you'd do it this way, or even just keep it to picking between two subs and always having the same special, in order to keep things balanced. You would also likely have different special costs for each setup, to account for the sub, due to some subs, like fizzy, being able to farm for special a lot faster than something like suction, as well as subs that just don't paint.
You also need to consider: how is this shown in game? do you get to see everyone's choices at the top of the screen somewhere on their icons during matches? and how much visual clutter does this introduce? How do we easily teach players about this? There's probably a massive list of issues that I haven't even considered, and the whole system would probably be difficult to properly implement in a way that is both balanced, fun, and easy for casuals & new players to quickly understand. I think it'd just be better to simply have more kits, rather than trying to make a whole new kit system. Therefore, the question could potentially be: do we want less time given to potential single player dlc in the future, and be given more kits instead? There's probably a good balance between the 2 somewhere, but it's probably impossible to know what splatoon 4 will look like, especially at this point.

Your commonly unconsidered questions really opened up the question and concept into something bigger. i agree, more kits is probably better but im thinking well if nintendo is only going to add 9-11kits a season avg incl new base weapons, how can we maximise the amount of kits and diversity while keeping under splatoon 3's system of adding kits + seasons... the counter arguement however becomes "well why dont they just add those kits as seperate kits to the game?" which is fair but i think the main highlight of this system is the mix and match diversity and how it will affect the meta/gameflow in interesting and hopefully positive ways... that still poses the question of how it is viewed in game. i think a seperate customisation screen/window would be needed, and can include all the weapons at the top or bottom similar to how they are in Sheldons test range in all 3 games (apart from the 'ingame' part of it). in matches i think small sub or special icons in the weapon box at the top of the ui would be neat but again is it too much visual clutter? if so i think just having it on the mapscreen like normal without any changes is fine, but then again ease of access is lost, however the same can be said about gear abilities and sub's all together which are jsut completely missing from that screen, and kits are easily recognisable by their distinct differences visually on the weapon from the main/alternate kits (for eg, rapid's colour changes from red to blue on the deco kits).

this leaves alot to be answered. maybe i'll redesign the UI and upload it here if it ends up working out, and if anyone else wants to do the same feel free. it opens up more discussion through comparisons and ideas