What splatoon 1 Top Tier would you want to see top tier today?

[Hitzel]

I am legally obligated to vote Zimi

 

[silvr_nouveau]

im am range bias however i do want the crb kit back in this game.
if range wern't the one to be a top teir i think H3 would be a fun one to see, hasnt gotten alot in a long time

Tbh VH3 has potential. Cooler is cooler and Sensor is acutally decent especially in an all zones environment as people can't really do anything if there located as they'll get targeted as soon as they approach the zone. If the main just gets a couple of buffs/ nerf reversions I think VH3 could be a high teir

 

[antyytna]

all of these sound ****ing annoying LOL

 

[Rainmixer]

Tbh VH3 has potential. Cooler is cooler and Sensor is acutally decent especially in an all zones environment as people can't really do anything if there located as they'll get targeted as soon as they approach the zone. If the main just gets a couple of buffs/ nerf reversions I think VH3 could be a high teir

I think we're all tired of seeing pencil in high level comps lol...

 

[Rainmixer]

all of these sound ****ing annoying LOL

Fair, most of these weapons are designed to poke you at a distance, and force you to focus on them, so from that perspective I see where you're coming from, but if we're talking strictly from a competitive standpoint, a top tier with fair counters is what creates better metas, as weapons that counter the top tier will naturally be high tier, giving more variability in comps!

 

[BlueDJ]

I really want H-3 to make a comeback, It’s such a cool weapon. It has high tier caliber paint, all I’m hoping for is more buffs

 

[antyytna]

Fair, most of these weapons are designed to poke you at a distance, and force you to focus on them, so from that perspective I see where you're coming from, but if we're talking strictly from a competitive standpoint, a top tier with fair counters is what creates better metas, as weapons that counter the top tier will naturally be high tier, giving more variability in comps!

That's not how metagames work. Metagames and compositions work off of a "Needs" chart, essentially. Obviously, in today's meta, you need a weapon with Tacticooler. Then you need weapons with specials that help you get in, at least two. You then need at minimum two good subs so that you don't get locked out. You likely need a Shooter for paint, a backline (unless you go backlineless, so generally two midliners), a midliner and a frontliner.

Metagames form around varying solutions to making comps with this in mind. So for instance you can have Pencil (Backline, Cooler, Paint) Splattershot (Shooter, Paint, Bomb, Special, Frontliner) Nautilus (more selfish, fulfills midline + special role of dominating shorter range weapons) and a 4th weapon. In this comp setup, it'd likely be a second frontliner that has a bomb and a good special, since Nautilus' special is nice but will not kill people, meaning you need more specials to help get in.

Weapons being good or having specific counters does not make a good metagame because it's not actually something you can think on as a team and make individual answers to. If you need a specific weapon to counter a top tier, then you HAVE to run that top tier, or risk losing against said top tier. That's the problem with "counters" in Splatoon, this isn't ****ing Pokemon, you have 4 weapon slots and so many things you want to fit into it already. If you have to have a weapon to counter another, it's going to overall make comps worse or more homogenized, which makes the variety worse. It creates a problem to be solved, but that problem is linear with only specific things. You do not make more variety, you just force comps into a deeper hole; now you have to run X to counter Y and that's going to be on every comp. Any healthy top tier will not need specific counters, it will be able to be taken on by most things reasonably.

Also note: The hate towards Shooters a lot seem to have is also not shown through the developers because Shooters help comps, generally. Shooters can be the engine for your comp and actually facilitate more variety, because you can have more selfish picks. Having Shooters to help paint for a Blaster is an obvious example, but also that so many of them carry a good bomb and special which means that in 1 single pick, you are helping fill out your team's comp a lot. Usually the problem is when the midline and backline Shooters are also crazy (Splatoon 2), or in the case of Splash-o-Matic and Trizooka Shooters, the special being wildly unhealthy. I do agree some of the mains should be toned down a bit, though.

The best way to add more variety to the metagame right now would be to make it so Pencil is not by far the best backliner (so the backliner options open up) which would make N-Zap and N-Tri real competitors for the Cooler slot, which also can become more viable options for Shooter Paint and Frontliner respectively. That could also make different types of comps because right now, which role you run Tacticooler on kind of changes a lot of how your comp works.

 

[Rainmixer]

That's not how metagames work. Metagames and compositions work off of a "Needs" chart, essentially. Obviously, in today's meta, you need a weapon with Tacticooler. Then you need weapons with specials that help you get in, at least two. You then need at minimum two good subs so that you don't get locked out. You likely need a Shooter for paint, a backline (unless you go backlineless, so generally two midliners), a midliner and a frontliner.

Metagames form around varying solutions to making comps with this in mind. So for instance you can have Pencil (Backline, Cooler, Paint) Splattershot (Shooter, Paint, Bomb, Special, Frontliner) Nautilus (more selfish, fulfills midline + special role of dominating shorter range weapons) and a 4th weapon. In this comp setup, it'd likely be a second frontliner that has a bomb and a good special, since Nautilus' special is nice but will not kill people, meaning you need more specials to help get in.

Weapons being good or having specific counters does not make a good metagame because it's not actually something you can think on as a team and make individual answers to. If you need a specific weapon to counter a top tier, then you HAVE to run that top tier, or risk losing against said top tier. That's the problem with "counters" in Splatoon, this isn't ****ing Pokemon, you have 4 weapon slots and so many things you want to fit into it already. If you have to have a weapon to counter another, it's going to overall make comps worse or more homogenized, which makes the variety worse. It creates a problem to be solved, but that problem is linear with only specific things. You do not make more variety, you just force comps into a deeper hole; now you have to run X to counter Y and that's going to be on every comp. Any healthy top tier will not need specific counters, it will be able to be taken on by most things reasonably.

Also note: The hate towards Shooters a lot seem to have is also not shown through the developers because Shooters help comps, generally. Shooters can be the engine for your comp and actually facilitate more variety, because you can have more selfish picks. Having Shooters to help paint for a Blaster is an obvious example, but also that so many of them carry a good bomb and special which means that in 1 single pick, you are helping fill out your team's comp a lot. Usually the problem is when the midline and backline Shooters are also crazy (Splatoon 2), or in the case of Splash-o-Matic and Trizooka Shooters, the special being wildly unhealthy. I do agree some of the mains should be toned down a bit, though.

The best way to add more variety to the metagame right now would be to make it so Pencil is not by far the best backliner (so the backliner options open up) which would make N-Zap and N-Tri real competitors for the Cooler slot, which also can become more viable options for Shooter Paint and Frontliner respectively. That could also make different types of comps because right now, which role you run Tacticooler on kind of changes a lot of how your comp works.

Alright, first of all, we don't need to resort to foul language, we're having a civil discussion.

However, I would like to mention one of the best Metas in splatoon 2, the RPS meta, was based off of countering main weapons. The best weapons were Dualies, countered by Brella, Brella, countered by Blaster, and Blaster, countered by dualies. Having more top tiers means you can run more weapons that counters one of these top tiers, or even just run another of the 3 top tiers.
Remember, you don't just run team comps that are self-sufficient, you also run team comps that exploit the other comp's weapon choices, for example you would run higher painting weapons to exploit a team that doesn't have as much.
I also never mentioned it being specific counters, because no weapon has 1 exact counter. Splash wasn't countered by just Ballpoint, it has many, and the same would apply here. You could run different weapons to counter the same weapon, which could each be exploited by different weapons in and of themselves. Having different ways to counter a main weapon is the definition of Variety in team comps, as it literally gives you more choices of weapons to run.

 

[antyytna]

Alright, first of all, we don't need to resort to foul language, we're having a civil discussion.

However, I would like to mention one of the best Metas in splatoon 2, the RPS meta, was based off of countering main weapons. The best weapons were Dualies, countered by Brella, Brella, countered by Blaster, and Blaster, countered by dualies. Having more top tiers means you can run more weapons that counters one of these top tiers, or even just run another of the 3 top tiers.
Remember, you don't just run team comps that are self-sufficient, you also run team comps that exploit the other comp's weapon choices, for example you would run higher painting weapons to exploit a team that doesn't have as much.
I also never mentioned it being specific counters, because no weapon has 1 exact counter. Splash wasn't countered by just Ballpoint, it has many, and the same would apply here. You could run different weapons to counter the same weapon, which could each be exploited by different weapons in and of themselves. Having different ways to counter a main weapon is the definition of Variety in team comps, as it literally gives you more choices of weapons to run.

The RPS meta led to you just having to run those top tiers. There wasn't that much more variety in that meta than there is in the current. If you made a comp without those weapon classes then it just kinda sucked. It doesn't lead to more variety in how many weapons are viable, if anything people just look at RPS as a good standard because it's different weapon classes that dominated rather than now.

Edit: The thread really isn't supposed to be a debate on this, so I'm going to stop posting these longer messages about this topic here, feel free to DM me though.