Why weapon diversity is important.

[RiDEL]

So I've been hearing a lot of talk about Splatoons competitive format regarding weapons, and people saying that squads should just consist of only Shooters (Aerospray's, Gal's, and Jr's). A lot of people like this idea because the Shooter's are the most diverse weapons in the game and can fill mostly every roll a team will need. This got me thinking about what I may expect form all Shooter teams and how interesting that would be to watch as a spectator. I mostly though of what types of plays we could see from Shooter's and for the most part I couldn't think of any thing impressive or ground breaking. A lot of people seem to over look the fact that Shooter's are also very user friendly and have a very low skill ceiling due to that. I wasn't sure if I was on board with this so i decided to do a little more research into other FPS's and there rule-set's regarding weapons.

During my research I came across TF2's competitive 6v6 and Highlander formats, though 6v6 is what were going to focus on here. TF2 being a class based shooter doesn't have a weapon focused format, but rather a class based one. 6v6 temas consist of two Scout's, two Soldier's (Roaming and Pocket), one Demoman, and one Medic. I noticed 6v6 was the most popular format while also being dubbed the most difficult to play at high level. So I sat down and watched a few matches (don't worry I have 700+ hours on TF2 so I know the basic gist) and I started to see why people enjoy watching and playing it. It was fast paced, calculated, and had diversity that kept things fresh. So how does this rule of diversity apply to Splatoon, well the best way I could put it is to compare each weapon type as it's own class. Shooter's are like Soldier's, as they can basically fill any roll they please but excel at getting things done quickly and effectively. The Roller can be like the Scout, as they have an important role in keeping the pressure on and has good capping abilities. The Charger can be compared to both the Medic and the Demo (sorry Sniper's only an off class in 6v6), as it offers a lot of area denial, can take out important targets, and offer much needed support to team members. So I thought, wouldn't be a much more interesting to have more weapon diversity then being restrained to one. The more I thought about it the more I could see possible issues with it, the big issue being balance. Not balance in the sense of two teams having the same weapon types but also how "X weapon does against X weapon". The big contender for having balance issue's is the Roller. The Roller is good covering terrain and capping the object in Turf War but it's doesn't seem to fill any role in Splat Zones. An easy solution would just be to swap out the Splat Roller for the Inkbrush, but we currently don't know how effective it is. The other big problem which is arguably bigger then the former is possible "broken combinations". This could possibly be a big issue in the future if some legendary weapon combination dominates the entire meta leaving a lot of the diversity out. Though I find the probability of this ruining the game being very slim to none. TF2 players basically run stock weapons in every game they play but yet they are still enjoyable to watch because each class brings something interesting and fresh Other then that I can see a lot of possibilities opening up for interesting match making.

But this still begs the question "what would be the best weapon spread for a team". I've hard a few ideas juggled around about this and the best one I've heard and the most widely liked spread would be two Shooter's, one Roller, and one Charger. Now I'm not saying this should and will become the basic spread across the team but it does seem like the best way to go about it. Now I'm not saying a team of all Shooter's would be bland and boring, it actually can be just as exiting. But the main problem with it and the main one people over look is it's restriction on players. Doing things this way would completely discourage people who have put long hours of work into mastering there Roller or Charger into joining a squad because all there hard work will go straight down the drain. Now do I think that an all Shooter team system is complexity out of the question, no, in fact I think it can be it's own "league" if enough people back behind it.

I know it's still too early to speculate what the universal rule-set regarding weapons is but I felt that it would be good to bring this up sooner then later. I also want to hear what you all have to say on this matter, I know my write-up might have been too long but I really wanted to make sure I didn't skim over any details.

So discuss away!

 

[Screech_]

earth shattering concept, extremely well thought out and well put, i agree

 

[fenrir vii]

It's still early, and this is extremely map and mode-dependent, but I really see this game taking a much more rigid lane/formation scheme over time, and weapon choices falling out from that result.

To illustrate what I'm saying, consider Walleye Warehouse. There are effectively 3 main areas/lanes to the middle section that lead to the large control area. To properly play this map, I definitely think you need one person dedicated to each of these sections. That leaves 1 player to play the "sweeper" role, to borrow a soccer term (or possibly go super aggro into enemy territory a la the TF2 scout).
The only other option I could see would be to have more of a 2-2 "box" formation with each player covering a lateral half of the map and the "defenders" playing effective double-team scenarios and covering the lead man in case they die..

The way this falls out, you really need 2-3 weapons that are capable of controlling an area and handling 1v1 scenarios effectively, then you need the backup weapons being able to 1v1, but more focused on regaining ground control and covering the front men from side attacks, etc.

I really think MOST weapons have their uses in one of these roles, but it really depends on the style you want to play, and the team has to buy in to it.

One possibility is that the frontmen take area cover weapons (aerospray, jr, rollers) with good defense subs/specials while the defenders take better long-range options (gallons, chargers, Pro, or even squelchers) to provide huge area coverage... This is really a "let's grab the area and play the other team to a stalemate" type loadout

Another one would be to outfit the frontmen with the gallons and pros to deal with 1v1's as effectively as possible while the defenders had area control weapons to hold that ground.

This gets really murky as you consider different maps and such. The big thing I can say is that a Charger can be incredibly useful, as it's possible for a good sniper to COMPLETELY shut down a Jr/Aerospray user from a high area with proper team support.

 

[FunkyLobster]

you seem to have a very big misunderstanding on how competitive formats are created and team composition works

speaking as someone who used to play 6v6 regularly and has nearly 1400 hours in tf2... this wasn't a deliberate decision by the community. no one on tf.tv just sat down and had the sudden thought "alright, THIS is the perfect format because it has wide diversity." this was a constant evolution over years of competitive play from 9v9 and 8v8 from the early years of tf2 before the 2010s, to 7v7, and now 6v6. a composition of 6 teams is a healthy number because it plays into the team strategy of tf2, while still having a few amount of players. 5v5 and 4v4 have been a thing (4v4 is actually really popular right now) but aren't really the "main" format, so to speak, because the few amount of players puts too much emphasis on the importance of getting kills than positioning and pushing. 6v6 is an ideal number because it plays into all of tf2s strengths of team strategy and composition of classes, and the importance of securing picks on important classes (demo, medic.)

furthermore, the classes of 6v6 were never really set, so to speak. in fact, there's no rules saying you need 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, a demo, and a medic. that's just the orthodox composition, because it's the best one. it has the absolute most broad kind of application a team could have, a demoman for huge damage output, a medic for healing (what else would the medic do,) a soldier and scout close to the medic and demo for protection, and a roaming soldier and scout for getting picks on the other team. there's a lot of class synergy within this composition. sure, you could get the pocket soldier to offclass on pyro and get flare picks, which are effective, but then you lose the medic's most valuable bodyguard. you see where i'm going with this?

we cannot just... sit down, and arbitrarily select weapons from the game and say that they're going to work. it takes years of theorycrafting and experimentation from competitive players to find the best composition for teams. furthermore, splatoon is VERY unique among competitive shooters. we cannot pull from other games and expect it to work for splatoon. instead of rocketjumping from quake and team fortress, or even sprinting from cod and the micromanagement of movement that that presents, we have the squid form. you only have strong movement options in your own claimed territory, and you have to ink a path through the other players ink before you can squid through it. there's soft boundaries you have to overcome before moving forward. map control is paramount. furthermore, the objectives for the modes all involve your ink in some way, such as having to ink a zone instead of having to stand on it for a few seconds to claim it. there's a lot of creative ways you can go about doing this: you can choose to use something with great ink coverage, but maybe not strong fragging potention to claim the zone while other fragging oriented players protect them, for example.

you say that chargers make for strong area denial? they absolutely do, thats true! and it's a good idea to roll with one. but so does the .96 gal, and it compensates its slow rate of fire with the sprinkler, which lets your team move up while it covers territory in ink. the roller has strong ink coverage? it certainly does, but so does the aerospray and splattershot jr, both of which have strong subs like the ink mine for area denial, or the disruptor for securing picks. there are a lot of options for team composition here, and the strongest one might not have the most variety, you understand...

even if teams wind up using mostly shooters, this is not a bad thing. over time, we'll find stronger, more creative options for composition, and we'll swap over to using them. it'll allow for more refined teams with broad applicability and versatility to their disposal, and that's not even to say we'll be stuck with one orthodox composition. we may find 3, or 4, or how any other number of ideal team compositions for whatever their playstyles may be.

you say that you "mostly though of what types of plays we could see from shooters" and " for the most part couldnt think of any thing impressive or ground breaking." why? you never explained your thoughts. whats so underwhelming or boring about them? what makes chargers and rollers more appealing? shooters can get the same job done that they can in different, creative ways, and that's not to say that chargers and rollers are inferior, just that we have options to choose from.

you can't just say that 2 shooters, 1 roller, and 1 charger are the most paramount or ideal composition for a team this early into the games lifespan. the meta is so, so early, and that's a point you even made yourself at the end of your post. this is going to takes years of experimentation and strong, skillful play from competitive players in addition to theorycrafting by the community. chargers, rollers, shooters... all of those weapon types will have their places, but you can't force them upon players. no one is saying that shooters are objectively all better than chargers and rollers, just that at the moment, shooters seem to have the most broad use and versatility. this is not a bad thing. as for spectator-ship... people don't want to see the most weapons. people want to see skillful play.

teams will congregate to choose the most convincing compositions for their players. we'll find strong loadouts and team compositions, and use them. variety won't matter; application will.

 

[RiDEL]

@FunkyLobster
Agreed. I'm not saying we should go with the most diverse weapon spread; this is more of response to the people who are quickly jumping to the conclusion that Shooter's will be the best. I just wanted to throw my hat into the ring and see what people thought about the idea of trying out diverse teams when we acquire the ability to play with other squads, so I thought it would be better to bring this up sooner then later. I'll agree I'm new to how competitive FPS's work coming from a competitive fighter background, so when I watched the TF2 matches I viewed in the same way as a fighting game.

Once again my main concern is completely alienating Roller and Charger users.

 

[Grafkarpador]

The big contender for having balance issue's is the Roller. The Roller is good covering terrain and capping the object in Turf War but it's doesn't seem to fill any role in Splat Zones. An easy solution would just be to swap out the Splat Roller for the Inkbrush, but we currently don't know how effective it is.

Dynamo rollers fit BEAUTIFULLY in Ranked and Turf Wars alike. I am almost A rank (didn't play much Ranked yet) without meeting major roadblocks (in fact I almost always dominatrd in whichever team I was placed). It would be a shame if teams would reject dynamo rollers on the premise that it's just another ****ty roller that can't pull their weight, because dynamos are a way, way different beast when played correctly. I maintain that dynamo rollers will become a must on every team once people actually realize how hard it is to stop a dynamo from just taking the entire playing field.

Team composition is a very complex subject and I think there will be no objectively best composition, but only concurring team counters. I have personally lead a squad of rollers to victory dozens of times, for example, even though this team makeup sounds TERRIBLE. I predict that the competitive scene will involve a Pokemon type of situation where some weapons are overused and underused, maybe the Aerosmith MLG gets banned or something, and some weapons are included to check/counter specific other types of weapons, but there will not be any team buildup that is just straight objectively the best.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Obviously team composition is map-dependent, but I have a rough idea of what my ideal team would consist of:

Defense/"Goalie" Position Role Player: This player would probably be best equipped with a short-ranged loadout with burst potential. Typically this player will use the Custom Blaster or the Krak-on Splat Roller (as both weapons are more effective when the enemy team is pushing into them). The purpose of this role is to hold your rear line. If the enemy ever pushes your team back, this person will be the source of your rallies, as they can make optimal use of walls, corners, short corridors, and small choke points.

Zoner/"Hawkeye" Position Role Player: This player will need a long-ranged weapon. So they will generally select a charger or squelcher loadout. The purpose of this role is to control long corridors, open fields, and courtyards by taking advantage of their range. They typically will hold position and not advance too far into enemy lines, but they can re-locate if their nest becomes compromised.

Opportunist/"Tactical Operations" Position Role Player: This player will be all about making plays via good team coordination. They will be looking for opportunities to push forward shielded by the longer-ranged teammates' cover fire. The .52 Gal is strong for this role with its high damage and its clutch Splash Wall sub along with the respectable Killer Wail special. The Splattershot Jr can also be a viable weapon choice, as its coverage will power up your Bubbler multiple times in a match.

Offense/"Skirmisher" Position Role "Point" Player: This player will want a high concentrated DPS loadout and provides the primary line of cover fire for the team. The opposing team will have to respect the high damage that this player dishes out, and therefore will not be so hasty to contest a slow push headed by this regular "artillery". The Splattershot Pro/Forge Splattershot Pro have great range and damage for this role. The .96 Gal is also a formidable alternative.

 

[Cynlet]

Man, these are some constructive comments here. I'm just here because this thread seems very fresh.

 

[FunkyLobster]

@FunkyLobster
Agreed. I'm not saying we should go with the most diverse weapon spread; this is more of response to the people who are quickly jumping to the conclusion that Shooter's will be the best. I just wanted to throw my hat into the ring and see what people thought about the idea of trying out diverse teams when we acquire the ability to play with other squads, so I thought it would be better to bring this up sooner then later. I'll agree I'm new to how competitive FPS's work coming from a competitive fighter background, so when I watched the TF2 matches I viewed in the same way as a fighting game.

Once again my main concern is completely alienating Roller and Charger users.

yeah i don't think your argument is bad or even wrong, just that it's not something we can rush or really even have to worry about. players will find the best weapons and use them, and so will the players they're fighting against, and the meta will evolve around that into skillful play, assuming that there's not any weapons with an absolutely dumb or effortless playstyle. there really isn't anything in the game like that, at least at the moment. some weapons are easier than others, but none are absolutely braindead and even the poorer weapons in the game have their use.

rollers and chargers will have their niche use of area denial and fragging, and i really don't anticipate teams of all shooters to be a common thing, but... you know. shooters are very good all-purpose weapons, with broad application in ink coverage, fragging, and mobility, and you have a lot of shooters to choose from (pro, jr., .gal variants, etc) and i don't think thats really a problem.

a healthy meta is a healthy meta, variety or not

 

[Plain]

1200hr person here (Damnit, I feel like a skrub now.)
Anyway, I do agree that team diversity will be key.
However, I do fear that snipers miiiiiiiiiiiiight be on the strong side(As said by me, it might boil down to who's sniper can lock down mid harder...). Again, I know that Sniper's aren't seen too much (at least from me) but when they do, rip bomber, rip scouts, rip charge ;_; if the sniper is gud ;P
Anyway, I have played against some really good snipers-squiffer mains use the mine on their perch, and basically forces enemies away- Other snipers have adapted splat bombs as a method of duping people, rolling it down, or placing it where they were a second ago then running away, agressing the sniper results in you dying, falling back means the sniper can retake and get support. Also instakills and huge range, they can lock off HUGE sightlines (However, this is more/less useful on certain maps) preventing you from peeking without a special. Snipers are preeeety hard to kill, especially if they have...team support. Scary.
For me, 1 aerospray (All praise the ink based abilities. One for capping- really powerful, forces enemies to run, basically shields your team (like a CS;GO Smoke, but also with near godmode. Grenade spam can kill you, have stopped pushes with a single suction bomb wiping 3 team mates thinking they can go in with instrike coverage lel, other for insane pop kill potential, like the kritzkreig-the inkzooka has almost seeker range, and lets you combat those snipers) Of course the aerosprays can hold their own in 1v1s, but will likely trade in a point blank due to non hitscanness. The seeker can kill unaware enemies and inkmines create hell on chokes.

The other shooter would either be another sprayer type weapon, jr is a whole team uber that can trade for the aerosprays, Tentatek has eassssily the best grenades in the game ihmo, and inkzooka is brilliant. Bomb rush, though basically untalked about, I have seen some stupid strats with corner spam. Echolocator... anyone that's seen my "Tier the subs" thread knows that I don't value it, though after playing the inkstriker role, having a echolocator focused player can show everything, and let you almost wipe (But cold blooded makes it last about 2.5 seconds) Killer wail blasters are good killers and can disrupt. People call it a top tier ability, and tbh, I've never been disrupted. Never. Ever. Is it a strat in NA? Anyway, I'll take your word for it and it's a free kill for your team if you engage a teamfight. Killer wail can lock down sightlines if given a chance, but is generally easy to dodge, but then again disrupters and echolocators.

A sniper is probably going to be a commodity too, and they'll probably be at the value of a medic (And special wielders as a charged medic). Chances are they'll be 1/2 snipers per team (Though likely 2 miiight be banned) In terms of specials, shield specials could help in pushes, sprinkler can act as a okay deterrent... inkzooka is brilliant, etc ;P

Rollers will be exclusively krak-on. Best roller. Only roller. Beacons are OP (Basically wipe protection). Krakon is possibly best flank special.

But anyway, in terms of fun-ness to watch, I'm not sure. That's my grain of salt for team comps.

Obligatory fite me 1v1 dustbowl
I'm not sorry

 

[ChivalRuse]

Snipers fill a support role and rely on their teammates to hold the front lines while they control long corridors or open fields, which forces the opposing team to play more passively, and oftentimes in Splat Zones that can be a deciding factor.

 

[fenrir vii]

Snipers shut down blasters and the Jrs/Aerosprays of the world. That alone makes them viable.

I'm a big fan of the Splattershot Pro and becoming moreso. I believe I prefer the Forge version because point sensor negates ninja squid, and inkzooka is an amazing firefight tool (whereas you have to retreat to use inkstrike). I feel like the Pro rivals the Gallons as the best 1v1 weapons in the game.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah Pro and the Gals are great weapons. In the hands of a good inkling, they can dominate the competition.

 

[Cynlet]

Speaking of Viability, this remind me of the Dynamo Roller, something to be feared. Also the learning curve of rollers:
BEGINNER: you can kinda dominate the battlefield, squashing every unaware newbies.
INTERMEDIATE- First Half: People began to learn the ropes, now chargers squash YOU.
INTERMEDIATE- Second Half: Krak-On Roller, saving grace.
ADVANCED: Dynamo Roller, now you are like a full time Kraken where people run the hell away from you.

 

[BluEyes]

Weapons should be chosen based on their effectiveness rather than filling a pre determined quota. Effectiveness is different from usability. I can use a roller on both salt spray and port but on which map is it effective?

Salt pray is primarily made up of elevated platforms and towers where having control of such positions generally gives you a better view of the battle. On such terrains, a splattershot pro/squelcher and a E-3 liter provides medium to long range and good damage. So why is a roller not so effective here? It is primarily because due to the terrain, rollers are pretty much exposed. There are very few places where a roller can catch someone offguard. A roller is mostly as good as dead once he is sighted and obviously a roller has a hard time splatting someone perched on a tower unless he climbs it.

Port mackerel has neatly stacked containers in rows and columns with long straights between them. It does have elevated positons maybe one for each side? This is a map where rollers can excel. The containers provide excellent cover and ambush. The long straights are inked easily by rollers. An E-3 liter would not fare as well here due to insufficient elevation positions and should he engage on ground level, he runs the risk of close quarter combat, the very thing a sniper wants to avoid. Here, rollers and high damage .52/.96 gal for those close quarters combat. Splattershot pro and squelchers are still relevant here as well.

 

[missingno]

I'm thinking that the 'standard' team will look something like:

Shooter, close/mid range - Aerospray, Splattershot Jr., Blaster, Tentatek Splattershot, .52 Gal Deco, N-Zap 85, Rapid Blaster
Shooter, long range - Splattershot Pro, .96 Gal, Dual Squelcher, Jet Squelcher
Roller - Krak-On, Dynamo
Charger - Kelp Charger/Splatterscope, E-Liter 3K

But there will probably be enough flexibility to deviate from this format. I could see teams dropping one of these and doubling up on another. Or slotting in the Inkbrush, which seems to be a bit of a wildcard that doesn't fit neatly into those given roles. I'm willing to bet though that most teams will have at least 3 out of these 4.