"Bans" in shooters
- Thread starter Pusha
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Bottlecapn
Inkling Commander
What are you talking about? Nothing's gonna be removed or cut, except for possibly 1 or 2 stages if there's too many/they're not balanced stages.
CloneHat
Inkster Jr.
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- CloneHat
This website was made by competitive Smash players.
There's no shame in declaring yourself competitive or non-competitive: it's not an arbitrary distinction. If you ever reach a high level of play in the game then you'll naturally gravitate towards a setting that favours competition.
No, competitive Smash community is bad. The majority are just a bunch of whiny, entitled, "git gud" spewing, narcissistic, haughty jerks. Even more so than the non-competitive community. Competitive Smash isn't at all fun anymore either.
WaifuRaccoonBL
Inkling Fleet Admiral
I only want to discuss maps, as I have a lot of experience with the concept of stages in smash bros.
No, we should not ban maps just because. As a person who has been a part of the smash community, there method of picking legal stages is terrible.
It allows for no growth, makes a lot of people ignorant, (they start making up reasons for why the stage isn't legal), and rejects a lot of people.
A stage should only be ban if the stage itself doesn't allow for true competitive play. Notice how I say the stage itself. I don't care if we have "enough" competitive stages. We should include all of the competitive ones which is looking to be almost all the revealed ones.
This is really the one major thing I don't like the idea of "borrowing" from Smash bros.
No, we should not ban maps just because. As a person who has been a part of the smash community, there method of picking legal stages is terrible.
It allows for no growth, makes a lot of people ignorant, (they start making up reasons for why the stage isn't legal), and rejects a lot of people.
A stage should only be ban if the stage itself doesn't allow for true competitive play. Notice how I say the stage itself. I don't care if we have "enough" competitive stages. We should include all of the competitive ones which is looking to be almost all the revealed ones.
This is really the one major thing I don't like the idea of "borrowing" from Smash bros.
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- Ya_Boi_Rapture
Let's keep this on topic everybody.
Remember that this is its own game with its own community, even if many of the members have backgrounds in other games. There's no reason our community has to necessarily adopt systems or methods or concepts or ideals or whatever from other games and their communities.
Also remember that games for competitive communities, and all they associate with (creating rule sets, running tournaments, etc.) have incredibly complex circumstances involving thousands of varying opinions.
And more over, every community has its share of bad apples and crappy situations, as well as awesome people and great situations. So let's not bash other players or their games or how they do things. Not only is that not how we should treat other people, but it isn't respectful and doesn't speak well about our community and those that represent it.
Remember that this is its own game with its own community, even if many of the members have backgrounds in other games. There's no reason our community has to necessarily adopt systems or methods or concepts or ideals or whatever from other games and their communities.
Also remember that games for competitive communities, and all they associate with (creating rule sets, running tournaments, etc.) have incredibly complex circumstances involving thousands of varying opinions.
And more over, every community has its share of bad apples and crappy situations, as well as awesome people and great situations. So let's not bash other players or their games or how they do things. Not only is that not how we should treat other people, but it isn't respectful and doesn't speak well about our community and those that represent it.
Pusha
Inkling Cadet
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Not really borrowing from smash bros. Almost all competitive shooters have a group of maps they exempt from competitive. It's normal to just select the maps that are competitively viable. No point playing a map in competitive if the community agrees its not giving a dynamic competitive experience.
We don't need to emulate other games exactly, but you can't help but borrow concepts from other games (in terms of competitive rule sets and systems).
EDIT: It's all about finding what the best fit is for the game
Chaozrush21
Full Squid
I'm surprised at how this thread haven't even been locked yet. It not only to early to even be considering banning anything and it also very unhealthy for you and the whole entire community. Splatoon isn't even out yet guys, we all only have about 4 hours+ of playtime under our belt. We don't even know what half of the weapons is going to be or how most of the other maps going to be like in a competitive stand point. It just too early, or in other words, counting your chickens before they hatch. Bans are only needed for the worst of worst things in terms of balance. It isn't "Ban this thing because I don't like," and/or, "I bad at the game so it should be banned." You ban because it absolutely digesting in battle and there is almost no ways to beat it with another type of weapon. Unless you want to make our competitive community complete cancer that is full of circle jerks, overall idiots, and complete chaos, just play the game and have fun for now folks.
WaifuRaccoonBL
Inkling Fleet Admiral
Trust me, I am all for borrowing from games if it helps metagames. No need to reinvent the wheel after all.
I will agree that stages that just aren't competively viable.
But you see, there are Temples, and there are wuhu islands. Temple is of course, a stage that should never be legal. Wuhu island on other hand, shouldn't be banned. It is an entirely fair stage that provides a different feeling then most of the static stage used.
And thats the thing, Wuhu island still offers something to competitive play and yet it is banned. And even more so, people keep bringing up reasons that have been proven false, like walk-offs on temporary stages actually producing effective walk-off camping.
You say a dynamic competitive experience correct? My view on that is that to have as many options open as possible while still keeping only those that are competitive.
There is also the issue of we don't even know how stage selection will even work. We might find a system that will enable us no needs for bans.
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- Ya_Boi_Rapture
While banning should really be a very last resort option, we won't lock threads to limit discussions about banning.
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Temporary walk-offs on stages aren't worth banning in my personal opinion, but I wouldn't say that's the reason Wuhu Island should be banned:
1) The bridge transformation has several gaps characters can fall between.
2) Boat transformation meteor smashes.
3) Volcano transformation can kill you.
4) Between transformations, random rocks can hit you and possibly kill you.
Ideally, stages that can outright damage and kill you should be avoided IMO. So while I do think, for example, Halberd is suspect because it has a number of hazards that can kill you or disrupt the flow of the game. But at the very least they are ridiculously telegraphed. So they aren't too bad. Wuhu hazards are continuous or not ridiculously telegraphed.
Pusha
Inkling Cadet
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I'm almost certain you haven't read the OP or any of the subsequent messages because you entirely missed the point of this thread, and I'm getting tired of repeating myself.
But just the fact that the mention of the word ban is bringing up hateful/disrespectful language like "Unless you want to make our competitive community complete cancer that is full of circle jerks, overall idiots, and complete chaos" kind of proves my point about there being a negative connotation around the word ban. No one here is discussing what to ban in splatoon, to save myself the time I'll just quote what @Bottlecapn said:
"Will you people stop ignoring what @Pusha is saying? 5, 6, 7 times over he's explicitly stated that this thread wasn't about discussing bans at this time. Don't you think it would be titled 'Banning Weapons or Maps' (*COUGH* there's a thread for that) instead? Stop filling it with 'it's way too early' or 'discussing bans at this time? you'll ruin the game' posts. Please."
Plz, let's keep it civil guys. And on topic. <3
WaifuRaccoonBL
Inkling Fleet Admiral
Eh, don't really want to talk about this due to it being off topic. PM me or something if you are curious.
Anyway.
About the negative connotation with the word ban.
Personally, I do find it at time it is needed to ban maps/stages etc. I think the issue comes in when people don't test out the stage, or only ban a stage based on what others have said, (mob mentality).
It is very easy for maps and stages to be banned over because someone high up in the community said so, and then everyone else agreed with them despite not knowing anything about the map themselves. It is the esport aspect of it that people hate.
Chaozrush21
Full Squid
Ok, then what is this thread even for then? The OP sounds like a personally blog more than anything, what is there to "discuss" about it? How banning could be a good or bad thing? I maybe sounding like a idiot here but I don't understand what you even trying to say and your quote doesn't help because it doesn't even say what the thread is about and just say what it isn't about leading to more confusion.
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Pusha
Inkling Cadet
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That's definitely true, but if the top pro team in a game says "Yeah i found the new map okay, but it wasn't lacking in this, this and this." then I'm going to trust their opinion over JoeForumPoster, you know? Not to say that people can't have opinions, but it's normal to trust someone who might know a lot more about the intricacies of a game over some random person on a forum. But in no circumstance should it ever be one person dictating bans or major decisions.
I think it also depends on the situation and environment surrounding a game. If a game is attracting larger organizations like MLG and hosting large tournaments regularly there is pressure on the community and smaller local organizers to align with the settings they use in the major tournaments. It gives players a way to work there way up and establishes a standard pretty quickly. On the other hand, games that don't see this major organization support (games like splatoon most likely) don't have that same pressure. It's entirely left up to the community and that can be tough to organize. I want to make it clear I'm not saying any one of these is better then the other.
People might not like the esports part of it like you said. But at the end of the day, the ultimate goal (at least imo) for any competitive game would be to see large tournaments, with large prize pools and see big name players emerge and be able to make a living off the game like you see in some MOBA's these days. Grow the game, grow the audience, make it big. And when you have that, or you're getting closer to that, and big name players emerge and those players decide "this map isn't great" or whatever it may be, you have to at least respect their decision, and understand that they know the game very very well and that they probably know what's best. It's obviously not just their decision alone, but it's still going to be weighted more then a random thread on reddit you know? What should be watched out for is when there is a divide within the group of top players on a certain topic.
But anyway, I think a lot of people like to say "Oh don't ban stuff because you don't like it". But i don't think anyone ever really wants to do that. It's just an easy way of dismissing someones argument and saying "deal with it". Or a way of getting out your anger when something is going against your opinion. Even if someones reasoning is flawed, it's not just because they don't like something. Heck sometimes there are maps in some shooters i play that I love playing on, but i understand that they have no place in competitive.
Pusha
Inkling Cadet
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Well the thread was for one, to identify the fact that people seem to overreact at the sight of the word "ban". And also to emphasize that in shooters, especially regarding maps, excluding things from competitive is normal and common and healthy and beneficial for competitive.
So regarding what there is to discuss you might say "I can agree with that but I'd like to point out blah blah blah...." or "I don't think bans are ever good, those shooters are dumb" or wtv you want to say on the topic. But what we aren't doing here is saying "Okay guys, let's ban things right now asap". I'm just trying to maybe loosen the tension surrounding the idea of bans and to inform the people who have little to no experience in shooters from a competitive standpoint. So really no ones saying we need to do anything, and there IS plenty of discussion to be had, as it has been happening (between all the posts of "too ealry plz stop")
I hope that cleared it up :)
WaifuRaccoonBL
Inkling Fleet Admiral
The problem with the esports aspect of it is that people care so much about hype moments, that they become blinded and don't actually see what could be hype.
Like I said before, some things are banned unfairly and could've been amazing to see in competitive play, hype even, but that mob mentality.
Like I said before, some things are banned unfairly and could've been amazing to see in competitive play, hype even, but that mob mentality.
SquidBuster
Inkster Jr.
When bans become common place in games the meta becomes a place of "second best" options, which most of the time are are less interesting and more limited than what was originally there. In terms of abilities, movement options, techniques, weapons, etc. nothing but the absolutely undeniably game-breaking stuff should ever be banned.