Bomb Trickery

[Floating Eyeball]

@Floating Eyeball I understand what you're saying about pressure, but I wouldn't consider seekers to be a weapon that exerts much pressure. They demand attention, because you have to jump over them to continue your approach, but this doesn't prevent you from doing important actions like shooting, dodging, or watching your sides.

A great example of a pressure tool is the bubbler. If you trigger the bubbler while in combat, you are always putting your opponent in a bad position, by forcing them to choose between two suboptimal options. They can either shoot you away, which will protect them from you but allow them to be flanked by another enemy who they probably won't notice, or flee from an invincible opponent with a full ink tank who is probably already in close range. Now compare these two options to seekers, where the opponent can simply jump over them and continue as usual. Sure, there is the possibility that they may make a mistake and die, but relying on your opponent to have bad motor skills or guess wrong isn't a consistent strategy.

The bubbler's easily better than seekers, but it's a special weapon; it's bound to be better.

I think I'm still not communicating what I mean fully: They shouldn't just be used on their own, you should also pursue your opponents to ensure they don't just avoid it. You shouldn't rely on someone not being able to dodge seekers, for whatever reason, but it's much harder to dodge both a bomb rushing at you and someone shooting at you at the same time. It's like your example of being possibly flanked if someone shot at someone in a bubbler, and more reliable, too: You can't always be sure your teammate will cooperate, but you're in control of both factors in this situation.

 

[SquiliamTentacles]

I don't think is has been said here yet, but if there is an annoying player who keeps using walls, hide for a moment to lure them in front of/very close to their wall, you can surprise them with a Suction/Splat bomb. Since bombs explode on contact with a splash wall, throwing a bomb at one gives you a good opportunity to quickly splat them.

 

[Vitezen]

@Floating Eyeball I agree that seekers shouldn't be used on their own, but that is a disadvantage compared to subs that CAN be used on their own. You say that seekers can be used in addition to your main weapon to control an area or push a player away. Now compare that to using a sub like a suction or splat bomb. Unlike the seeker, which can be avoided as you continue on your way, it is much more difficult to do the same with these bombs. You can't just jump over them and continue pushing forward, you will be caught in the blast and die. The question I would ask in that case is, if one sub requires you to use your main weapon as well to threaten, and the other doesn't, why would you choose the one that asks more of you for the same result?

 

[Floating Eyeball]

@Vitezen Splat Bombs and Suction Bombs are definitely useful, but they aren't enough to do it on their own, either: They don't move at all, so you just have to move back enough to avoid the blast, they have a shorter timer and let you get back to moving ahead sooner, while Seekers remain a hazard until they hit a wall, and they don't ink up anywhere else, so you have to ink up a path yourself, while a Seeker gives you a path.
That's not to say they're worse than Seekers, just that each sub has its own flaws to keep in mind. Whether it's knowing to jump over a Seeker or to pull back from a bomb, people familiar with tricks are going to know how to avoid them, so it's best to be able to use your sub and main weapons to compliment each other.

 

[Vitezen]

@Floating Eyeball Yes, these bombs can be countered too, but the impact they have if countered is still much more significant. Let's go back to your example of using seekers in Port. If your goal is to keep me away or zone me out, and you're using seekers, how are they contributing to that goal? They're not preventing me from using a given path or approaching you, because I can just jump over them. Compare this to the use of a splat bomb or suction bomb. I can't move through that area as reliably, because instead of just pressing a single button, I also have to estimate the area of effect, the timer, my own movement speed, and where that splat or suction bomb may even land. Toss a suction/splat bomb in an intersection and people won't be entering. Toss a seeker down a lane and it can be easily ignored by anyone that sees it.

Your claim is that a sub and main should complement each other, but what strategy do seekers complement? It seems to me that they are just a harassment tool, but in that case, a disruptor would be superior due to their greater area of effect, lower ink cost, and difficulty to dodge/outplay.

 

[Squix]

Seekers are a means of transportation, or atleast in my eyes. Harassment tool too, but I don't know what else.

 

[Floating Eyeball]

Yes, these bombs can be countered too, but the impact they have if countered is still much more significant. Let's go back to your example of using seekers in Port. If your goal is to keep me away or zone me out, and you're using seekers, how are they contributing to that goal? They're not preventing me from using a given path or approaching you, because I can just jump over them. Compare this to the use of a splat bomb or suction bomb. I can't move through that area as reliably, because instead of just pressing a single button, I also have to estimate the area of effect, the timer, my own movement speed, and where that splat or suction bomb may even land. Toss a suction/splat bomb in an intersection and people won't be entering. Toss a seeker down a lane and it can be easily ignored by anyone that sees it.

Your claim is that a sub and main should complement each other, but what strategy do seekers complement? It seems to me that they are just a harassment tool, but in that case, a disruptor would be superior due to their greater area of effect, lower ink cost, and difficulty to dodge/outplay.

You're making an unfair comparison, you're looking at seekers and bombs in entirely different ways. The reverse could easily be said as well:
"With Seekers, I have to factor in how far away it is, the height and length of my jump, the path it inks up behind it (so I don't jump into enemy ink), and whether there's a wall or teammate behind me that might activate its explosion. With regular bombs, I just have to move the left stick."

Toss anything that explodes in an intersection and there will be some that won't enter, some that will enter anyways and get splatted, and some that will know how to avoid them and just be slowed down momentarily. There's no universal situation.
And in Port, Seekers are able to reach good distances due to the long lanes, while a bomb that's thrown might need more to act at a distance.

Disruptors are also excellent for harassment, but they have a number of flaws as well: They don't guarantee a splat, they don't spread any ink, and they explode on contact, so they can't be used to surprise someone, or to force them to face two dangers at once as Splat Bombs, Suction Bombs, and Seekers can. (and even Sprinklers, in the right cases)

 

[Vitezen]

@Floating Eyeball The lax requirements for jumping over seekers just didn't occur to me to list as a problem. Maybe that's just me, but I've rarely not been able to jump over them without thinking about it. And of course, some people will enter an intersection and die to an obvious trap, but again, that is relying on the ineptitude of your opponent. If that is the criteria you're using, there would be no point in having this discussion, since every single weapon can work if your opponent walks right into it. And while it's true that seekers can travel long distances, I respond with my original point; if they can't reliably pressure or kill the opponent, why use them in combat? And I'm claiming that disruptors do actually surprise players more often, since they travel much faster and less noticeably than a slow trail of enemy ink approaching the opponent. The danger they pose is not that of a one-hit kill like a seeker, but it is still just as dangerous if they are zoned properly.

I do agree that seekers can very efficiently spread ink, especially on maps with long unobstructed paths like Port. Actually, now that I think of it, seekers may be perfect for probing the edges of enemy ink, since they can penetrate and then create an area of your own ink, possibly even killing opponents hiding at the edge. But I simply cannot see the seeker having any constructive uses as a killing or pressure tool.

 

[Floating Eyeball]

It might just be something that comes naturally to you! I seem to have a sort of reverse situation, I don't usually think about how to avoid a bomb (probably a habit after running for a while before I switched up a bit), but I'm not usually inclined to jump over a seeker, so I end up just ducking and not getting any better at jumping. I know I've definitely seen people try to jump and end up missing or falling off the stage, though, so I think there's still a bit of risk involved, but it probably mostly varies from player to player.

I definitely agree we shouldn't expect everyone to constantly mess up, I just meant to include someone charging ahead as an example of the variety of players' reactions. Definitely a poor choice to add in hindsight, sorry about that. (although, we ought to plan for a mistake to some extent, nobody can play a perfect game)

That's definitely a good point about disruptors. Seekers have the occasional jump-out, but they're situational, and always visible on the map to anyone who looks, while disruptors are nearly always a surprise. (Unless someone sees your weapon and knows your kit, and even then, they can't know for sure when you'll throw one or where you are)

I think at this point it might come down more to personal experiences? I tend to play with seekers a lot, and so get more success with them and like them more, but you seem like you've got a lot of experience with other subs, so you would get a lot of success and strategies with them, and if you just have to jump over seekers, they would seem much less effective for you. Not that either side would be more correct than the other (I'm terribly sorry if this seems like a cop-out, but this seems to be the direction our discussion's heading)

 

[Vitezen]

Nah it's probably how it should be. We have both gotten a ton of insight into weapon sub choices and that is the best I can expect from a discussion.

 

[Vitezen]

Dub post please delete :O