coolerless comps

[Akainacephalus]

my team, eggshells, has been experimenting with coolerless comps since we only had one dedicated cooler player who would often sub out due to IRL circumstances. i was the second candidate for playing cooler as the charger player (i'd switch to pencil), but i HATED it. so, a few days ago we decided, screw cooler, lets just play without it. it was very successful in scrims, and today we tested it out in tournament (Squids for Palestinian Kids) and we went 3-0 in groups and tied for 9th in top cut! we lost to seed 2 but the games didn't even feel unwinnable. we've all had a resurgence in motivation for the game and even had an upset on a team we've struggled to beat previously while running coolerless.

what's your opinion on coolerless comps? do they work for you or do you depend on them?

 

[zyf_]

idk if you remember me but our team never runs cooler lol
iirc when we played together i told you to just play charger instead of running pencil when you wanted to run charger

i think cooler being "required" is a scam anywhere beyond top level and maybe high high level, but I suspect it is very much required at top level

the thing about cooler is that it's super broken when you're playing on the bleeding edge of efficiency, because I think it just totally breaks your team's special output and continuous fighting capacity (in a good way)

but unless everyone on your team knows how to jump in + give jumps + is extremely efficient about their special use and everything else, i really don't feel like it's necessary

at least in our case, I haven't yet studied sets (where I thought we had a chance to win) where I felt like there was nothing we could've done better and we should have just run cooler instead

is that extremely controversial and no one listens to me but my team? yes
do i still think it's true? also yes

however, I think if you're not going to run cooler, you do need to very intentionally have a justification for something you think is actively stronger instead, because by default, getting more opportunities to go for things is statistically a very favorable thing to do

in our case, our justification against cooler is: having weapons that like sharking + wanting to play the map very spread/having very unusual and creative positioning, and the main weapons we like and are good at don't benefit much from cooler because they're quick and not particularly individually impactful/just give incremental improvements, so we just spec'd into very strong main weapons/kits (stamper, carbon, bamboo, naut, .52, etc.)
and then I run ttek as the flex/support slot because it fits my very particular and idiosyncratic playstyle

but you do have to very much have real answers to cooler, or you're gonna get run over. it's meta for a reason

 

[Zonink]

Cooler is hit or miss with certain weapons and isn't mandatory. But the psychological effect of cooler is really nice especially in a team environment.

Pencil is a bit uninvolved yea and I would prefer playing other weapons over it usually. But it is way more fun to play with than pretty much any other anchor in the game. It paints, pops cooler, combos with everything and it's even good into other anchors.

I don't think cooler is mandatory, in fact I think zap and tri are a bit overrated. But that doesn't stop pencil from being head and shoulders above every other anchor right now because it has frankly a ridiculous amount of role compression. Like zyf said you really need a damn good reason to play without cooler and by extention pencil.

 

[Akainacephalus]

idk if you remember me but our team never runs cooler lol
iirc when we played together i told you to just play charger instead of running pencil when you wanted to run charger

i think cooler being "required" is a scam anywhere beyond top level and maybe high high level, but I suspect it is very much required at top level

the thing about cooler is that it's super broken when you're playing on the bleeding edge of efficiency, because I think it just totally breaks your team's special output and continuous fighting capacity (in a good way)

but unless everyone on your team knows how to jump in + give jumps + is extremely efficient about their special use and everything else, i really don't feel like it's necessary

at least in our case, I haven't yet studied sets (where I thought we had a chance to win) where I felt like there was nothing we could've done better and we should have just run cooler instead

is that extremely controversial and no one listens to me but my team? yes
do i still think it's true? also yes

however, I think if you're not going to run cooler, you do need to very intentionally have a justification for something you think is actively stronger instead, because by default, getting more opportunities to go for things is statistically a very favorable thing to do

in our case, our justification against cooler is: having weapons that like sharking + wanting to play the map very spread/having very unusual and creative positioning, and the main weapons we like and are good at don't benefit much from cooler because they're quick and not particularly individually impactful/just give incremental improvements, so we just spec'd into very strong main weapons/kits (stamper, carbon, bamboo, naut, .52, etc.)
and then I run ttek as the flex/support slot because it fits my very particular and idiosyncratic playstyle

but you do have to very much have real answers to cooler, or you're gonna get run over. it's meta for a reason

yeah we havent struggled cuz of cooler comps at all ever since running no cooler. we're way more consistent at helping each other fight now, and like i said we even beat a team in bracket we struggled against pre-coolerless. so far every time we've lost it wasnt because of a lack of cooler, it's people who would've beaten us regardless (ie. xenith's team). it feels like we can put up more of a fight now since most of our weapons aren't cooler dependant (liter, squeezer, qr dualies)

 

[Akainacephalus]

Cooler is hit or miss with certain weapons and isn't mandatory. But the psychological effect of cooler is really nice especially in a team environment.

Pencil is a bit uninvolved yea and I would prefer playing other weapons over it usually. But it is way more fun to play with than pretty much any other anchor in the game. It paints, pops cooler, combos with everything and it's even good into other anchors.

I don't think cooler is mandatory, in fact I think zap and tri are a bit overrated. But that doesn't stop pencil from being head and shoulders above every other anchor right now because it has frankly a ridiculous amount of role compression. Like zyf said you really need a damn good reason to play without cooler and by extention pencil.

i don't like pencil and liter has a 1-on-1 winning matchup against it. so far when we lose it's against people we lose against regardless of what we run.

 

[Zonink]

i don't like pencil and liter has a 1-on-1 winning matchup against it. so far when we lose it's against people we lose against regardless of what we run.

Liter is good into pencil but absolutely terrible against pencil comps. There is a lot of things that straight up beat the pencil main weapon but very little that beats what pencils gameplan is.

You aren't fighting 1v1s against pencil, you are fighting 0v1's against it because it's pretty much guaranteed to have cooler and for you to have RP. When you win an engagement against pencil it's almost meaningless because the risk they took is nonexistent to what liter has to risk by peaking.

 

[zyf_]

i don't like pencil and liter has a 1-on-1 winning matchup against it. so far when we lose it's against people we lose against regardless of what we run.

this isn't even correct lol the #1 thing blop loved most about pencil is that you get to totally invalidate eliters for free by simply not engaging them

the thing about pencil in particular thats broken af is that it paints SUPER well
and acts as a living beakon
and has insane cooler output
like zonink said--role compression lol

for now you'll be fine but eventually eliter will just get outright outpaced unless your aim is always on
but im always a fan of pushing things until you feel like your weapon is the thing holding you back so best of luck to you, i just am fairly confident you'll hit a wall with liter lol

also squeezer and dualies both benefit tremendously from cooler lol squeezer cuz it doesn't get zooka that fast and dualies because they aren't always in a position to crab when they get it so it's nice to be able to go go go until you need the crab, knowing that the cooler is your backstop

unless you're running enperries in which case...lol

 

[Akainacephalus]

Liter is good into pencil but absolutely terrible against pencil comps. There is a lot of things that straight up beat the pencil main weapon but very little that beats what pencils gameplan is.

You aren't fighting 1v1s against pencil, you are fighting 0v1's against it because it's pretty much guaranteed to have cooler and for you to have RP. When you win an engagement against pencil it's almost meaningless because the risk they took is nonexistent to what liter has to risk by peaking.

im fully aware, it's why i've complained about pencil meta for so long. and running RP into cooler+zooka is a throw. i've been running SSU for months instead of RP because it's a drain on you more than it is for the other time bc of pencil's cooler uptime. i'm aware that liter struggles in this meta not because it loses to pencil, but because pencil outclasses it. however, i think liter is still strong, i've one tricked it for years and i prefer playing it over pencil. my team has been chill with coolerless so far and we're winning consistently against people at our skill level despite running coolerless liter comps into pencil comps. it works for us, even if it's not the meta. cooler is just the easy way to play in my eyes; it can be played around.

 

[Akainacephalus]

this isn't even correct lol the #1 thing blop loved most about pencil is that you get to totally invalidate eliters for free by simply not engaging them

the thing about pencil in particular thats broken af is that it paints SUPER well
and acts as a living beakon
and has insane cooler output
like zonink said--role compression lol

for now you'll be fine but eventually eliter will just get outright outpaced unless your aim is always on
but im always a fan of pushing things until you feel like your weapon is the thing holding you back so best of luck to you, i just am fairly confident you'll hit a wall with liter lol

also squeezer and dualies both benefit tremendously from cooler lol squeezer cuz it doesn't get zooka that fast and dualies because they aren't always in a position to crab when they get it so it's nice to be able to go go go until you need the crab, knowing that the cooler is your backstop

unless you're running enperries in which case...lol

pencil doesn't have to engage liter, but when it does it loses. sometimes im able to force the 1v1 and win. otherwise i just pick off their teammates. sucks if they have cooler up when i do but we can just wipe them again if we're better. it's been working for us. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
there are times i've felt held back by liter; initially fixed by dropping RP, and then fixed again when i simply improved. the game's always changing and while sometimes there are tactics that are more consistent or easy to play around, they aren't the ONLY way to play.. liter's my weapon and im better with it, nothing can make me drop it ^-^

 

[RubberCF]

I think that an interesting way to kind of replicate the effects of cooler without having cooler would be tenacity and stacking a bit of special saver. One of the big reasons cooler is so effective is how it effects resources, i.e. special charge. Dying usually slows down a team by reducing their speial charge, but if everyone has tenacity on, dying (or more specifically going into a numbers disadvantage) gives everyone 4.32 points per second per down teammate, which is more than the passive charge you get from riding tower. And if players stack some special saver (which stacks very well so you dont need a bunch), even if they also die after a teammate does theyll retain a good portion of the points they gained, and it will further reduce the resources lost from dying.
Its mostly just an interesting idea ive had for a while, but since tenacity got buffed (it was literally doubled in effectiveness) i think it has potential as a legitimate way to effect the natural flow of a game, in a kinda similar way to how cooler does. And if you arent using cooler, everyone who dies is down for the full 7.5 seconds, which helps tenacity get more use. I think if a team did try this theyd be suprised by their special output and ability to counterpush, assuming the team is good at not wiping when things go bad.

 

[Alphine_Agnitio]

my team, eggshells, has been experimenting with coolerless comps since we only had one dedicated cooler player who would often sub out due to IRL circumstances. i was the second candidate for playing cooler as the charger player (i'd switch to pencil), but i HATED it. so, a few days ago we decided, screw cooler, lets just play without it. it was very successful in scrims, and today we tested it out in tournament (Squids for Palestinian Kids) and we went 3-0 in groups and tied for 9th in top cut! we lost to seed 2 but the games didn't even feel unwinnable. we've all had a resurgence in motivation for the game and even had an upset on a team we've struggled to beat previously while running coolerless.

what's your opinion on coolerless comps? do they work for you or do you depend on them?

Coolerless comps main benefit is being able to be slightly more aggressive than comps with cooler since you have a additional slot for a more aggressive special, but in contrast that also means you need a overall better K/D to keep that pressure going with the specials you get and better coordination.


The way I look at cooler rn is it does double duty as a immediate buff for your entire team helping them get kills, but more vitally, a failsafe so even if a engagement goes poorly your already back and ready to contest objective in 5-6 seconds versus 10-12 which is a big difference in most modes.

I think its worth expirementing with but with Pencil also being a good backline and Nzap being good when played aggressively in its own right its really hard to justify the upsides.

 

[MMOToaster]

Me and my team probably wouldn't try it since we're so used to playing with cooler. (We've been playing with cooler even before people considered it to be good). But if you're able to adapt your play style so it works without cooler than I'd say go for it. I'd still consider cooler too strong of a special to pass out on, but in the end it's skill what determines your victory.

 

[Alphine_Agnitio]

Its mostly just an interesting idea ive had for a while, but since tenacity got buffed (it was literally doubled in effectiveness) i think it has potential as a legitimate way to effect the natural flow of a game, in a kinda similar way to how cooler does. And if you arent using cooler, everyone who dies is down for the full 7.5 seconds, which helps tenacity get more use. I think if a team did try this theyd be suprised by their special output and ability to counterpush, assuming the team is good at not wiping when things go bad.

I've always been under the impression that tenacity only activates when you have afk/disconnected players, or at least, thats how I interpret "active players" as its decribed in-game.

although I guess that'd make the ability pretty pointless, so I'm not sure.

 

[zyf_]

pencil doesn't have to engage liter, but when it does it loses. sometimes im able to force the 1v1 and win. otherwise i just pick off their teammates. sucks if they have cooler up when i do but we can just wipe them again if we're better. it's been working for us. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
there are times i've felt held back by liter; initially fixed by dropping RP, and then fixed again when i simply improved. the game's always changing and while sometimes there are tactics that are more consistent or easy to play around, they aren't the ONLY way to play.. liter's my weapon and im better with it, nothing can make me drop it ^-^

yeh like i said
i literally play coolerless and we went 2-3 vs seed 2 of sfpk today so it can be done and if you like eliter by all means do what u want

i will say u should strongly consider picking up firefin, the wall and faster charge time will help tremendously against faster teams that cooler rush you, strikes is all around better than wb, and wall will also let you push up on the map to give you more chances to hunt the pencil

there are chargers around my level that also avoid pencil, but they usually only play liter on the maps where it's super hard to displace (e.g. museum zones)

 

[RubberCF]

I've always been under the impression that tenacity only activates when you have afk/disconnected players, or at least, thats how I interpret "active players" as its decribed in-game.

although I guess that'd make the ability pretty pointless, so I'm not sure.

The way it works is it gives you passive special charge the less teammates you have alive compared to the enemy team. If the enemy team has 1 more alive, you get 4.32 pps (points per second) if they have 2 more, you get 8.64 pps, if they have 3 more, you get 12.96 pps

 

[Alphine_Agnitio]

The way it works is it gives you passive special charge the less teammates you have alive compared to the enemy team. If the enemy team has 1 more alive, you get 4.32 pps (points per second) if they have 2 more, you get 8.64 pps, if they have 3 more, you get 12.96 pps

thats definingly interesting, not sure if it'd be justifiable since I find a lot of the times if 1-2 people go down a well coordinated push can wipe the rest of the team easily, probs worth expriementing with though

 

[zyf_]

tenacity sounds good on paper but in practice ends up being kinda slow
ESPECIALLY because a coolerless charger comp really, really doesn't want to be in a 3v4, charger is at its strongest when its teammates aren't dead
so it's bad to hedge your bets with a situation that you want to avoid as much as humanly possible

 

[RubberCF]

thats definingly interesting, not sure if it'd be justifiable since I find a lot of the times if 1-2 people go down a well coordinated push can wipe the rest of the team easily, probs worth expriementing with though

Yeah the team would have to especially practice role switching so that when teammates start to go down the remaining players focus more on anchoring and slowing down the enemy as they push

 

[zyf_]

Yeah the team would have to especially practice role switching so that when teammates start to go down the remaining players focus more on anchoring and slowing down the enemy as they push

this is highly nontrivial when one of your teammates (charger) can't stall/keep people away at a long distance and is bad at providing chip damage crossfire

 

[RubberCF]

tenacity sounds good on paper but in practice ends up being kinda slow
ESPECIALLY because a coolerless charger comp really, really doesn't want to be in a 3v4, charger is at its strongest when its teammates aren't dead
so it's bad to hedge your bets with a situation that you want to avoid as much as humanly possible

Well firstly im more juat using this as an oppritunity to post the idea, not specifically for this team. But also even if 3v4s are especially bad for a charger coolerless comp i cant imagine its actually that avoidable. Like, if you can manage to avoid being at a numbers disadvantage that much, then arent you probably winning anyways?