Fixing All of the Weak Sub Weapons

[OnePotWonder]

I need something to post, and the Toxic Mist thread seems to have been doing well. I figured, why not expand on it?

Toxic Mist
There are a few ways to go about buffing Toxic Mist.

Route 1 is simplest; increasing the strength of the mist's effects. When first entering the mist, enemies' movement is slowed by 30% and their ink tank is drained at a rate of 10% per second (or 0.167% per frame). Toxic Mist's effects would no longer scale over time to keep it fair.

Route 2 is most likely to make the sub good; letting the mist do damage at a rate of 20.0 damage per second (or 0.33 per frame). This lets the sub combo with most of the weapons it's on, easily saving a shot to splat for Mini Splatling and Jet Squelcher, and making Recycled Brella and Rapid Blaster Pro potential one-shot splats. This would make the sub more threatening at the cost of some of its identity.

Route 3 is the most interesting; decreasing Toxic Mist's effects to a constant 10% slow and only preventing ink recovery, in exchange for the mist keeping enemies within it from entering swim form. This makes the sub far better at trapping and slowing without making it more threatening on its own, which incentivizes players to use it more actively.

In any case, I think it's also a good idea to decrease its ink cost to 55%.

Sprinkler
Make it cost 45% of the ink tank. Just do it, that's all it needs.

Sprinkler is already a decently strong sub; it offers instant, if weak protection, and lots of paint in both the short- and long-term. Its identity is already fully fleshed-out, all it needs is a lower ink cost to make it more worth using. This is also the only buff for the sub that has virtually no impact for Aerospray RG, which is an unintentional bonus.

Squid Beakon
Squid Beakon has fallen off a bit lately, so a small buff to the sub seems like a fair change.

When broken, Squid Beakons will create a tracking cloud with a radius of 35 DU that marks enemies for 3 seconds. This means breaking a Squid Beakon in close range will give away a player's location, which feels like an interesting improvement.

Angle Shooter
There are many ways to go about buffing Angle Shooter, and unlike with Toxic Mist, the buffs can stack.

First and most popular, increasing its trail contact damage from 0.0 to 20.0. This allows the trail to replace one shot for every weapon with the sub except for Slosher Deco. Giving the sub 30.0 trail damage just for the sake of the bucket combo seems superfluous.

Secondly, improving the sub's duration, both with regard to its lingering line and location time. Direct hits will locate opponents for an additional three seconds, and the trail will last one second longer. This improved uptime makes Angle Shooter much more comparable to Point Sensor while not completely overshadowing the location sub.

Thirdly, increasing its direct hit damage to 60, simply because why not? It's extremely difficult to hit two Angle Shooters in a row; to do so should be rewarded with a splat. Especially if a bomb costing 70% (or even 55%) of the ink tank can splat an opponent on its own. This also means a direct hit with the sub weapon turns the main of its flagship kit, Splattershot Pro, into a one-shot. This should have been the case from day one; imagine if Pro had been viable during Crab meta. It could have made it so much better!

Finally, the sub will also gain the ability to pierce opponents. Again, why not? It won't be able to damage an enemy more than once, it simply gives the sub the opportunity to locate more players.

I could think of more buffs, but anything more than this would probably have to be compensated by an ink cost increase to 45%.

Curling Bomb
A minor addition, Curling Bomb should deal 45.0 contact damage. I see no reason not to give it this extra combo utility.


Thanks for reading the post.
Feel free to share your thoughts and ideas in the comments. If you have changes of your own, I'd love to hear them. The Toxic Mist anti-swim form idea was accidentally invented by @OCTöHEAD on the previous thread. You never know what you might come up with.
Have a wonderful day!

 

[OCTöHEAD]

Thanks for the mention!

Finally, the sub will also gain the ability to pierce opponents. Again, why not? It won't be able to damage an enemy more than once, it simply gives the sub the opportunity to locate more players.

^ THIS! ^
imagine getting two or more opponents caught in the rain and finishing them off with this~

Also the contact damage on Curling Bomb yes pleaaase they're so slow so if you actually run into one you should be punished

 

[Algae]

Some interesting thoughts out here. Here's my two cents on buffing sub weapons:

Curling Bomb: I have my doubts about contact damage; the ol' Seeker was easily avoided by whomever you were facing head on. I propose slightly faster charging, slightly bigger explosion at a distance, and a distance indicator at closer distances (pls give that to splash wall as well). That might make the bomb more of a servicable poking tool under some circumstances.

Autobomb: Some find it too easy to just trigger the bomb's explosion by swimming to it, then sub-strafing back. It's seen as merely a versatile Point Sensor, so would it be good to make it store its initial distance to its target, then keep walking that distance (e.g. if it starts walking while you're barely in its range, moving to it will make it circle you for a bit)? (Though I keep thinking the lethal damage is 150, as in 30 x fifth bomb, which would fit the bomb's ink efficiency.)

Sprinkler: This being an early (perhaps unintentional) jack-of-all trades sub, I thought of giving it a slightly bigger droplet range (making its paint more valuable for the risk of it being destroyed) and a droplet damage of 22, so fights involving it are more dangerous. I am interested in its niche as a more expensive mobility tool, though, so I'm honestly not one to decrease the ink cost.

Toxic? Mist: Route 1 is the one I consider the healthiest; it'd be cool for a sub without paint OR damage to be effective on the right weapons. There's something that bothers me: I don't like Point Sensor. Genuinely, that thing has the least sauce (no pun intended) out of any "ideally designed" sub weapons. But tracking opponents would be convenient for a more consistently effectual Mist (except the kind given to Sting Ray and Thermal Ink). Imagine throwing that thing over a wall; a slowed-down AND marked target is easy picking for the cover-rounding Sloshing Machine or aim-intensive H-3, while being no more able to stall those who cross clear chokepoints. Maybe making the thrown bottle bounce into a tiny cloud once would compensate for its middling range (overlap won't stack). I call this thing Sensing Mist, and there's quite some weapons it'll work with.

Ink Mine: This thing can do with 55% ink cost. It should explode instantly if a player moves right on top of it, and it should be harder for enemy paint to trigger it (maybe via filling the tiny circle completely). I don't know how much damage a direct should have; I don't want it to be too much of a combo tool.

Squid Beakon: I feel like this sub's weakness is largely a map issue and a casual play issue (solo queue makes teamwork harder). Maybe the proposed marking would bridge the latter sort of gap? Also, I'm quite peeved that "optimal" use of this sub requires stacking a gear ability, so I'd nerf that (or have a sub range ability instead; it'd be funny to drop this thing five feet from your character).

Angle Shooter: 25 indirect damage would do, maybe decreasing if the line is bounced a lot. Bounces should redirect to a target at a tiny angle. These two buffs would make bouncing the line off walls more rewarding. The proposed piercing and duration increases are great ideas, but I don't think encouraging multi-directs plays into the sub's uniqueness. Lastly, I'M SO GLAD IT GIVES BURST PAINT NOW IMAGINE HOW MUCH OF A DUD THIS THING WAS AT LAUNCH

 

[OnePotWonder]

Ink Mine doesn’t necessarily need buffs, which is why it’s absent from the post, but it is possibly the sub I want to se buffed the most. 55% ink consumption makes perfect sense for it.

I believe Autobomb and Curling Bomb are mostly balanced; even if an Autobomb is triggered early by sub strafing, it denies an area for its one second detonation time. Curling Bomb could use more utility as a combo tool, hence the very small change I made to it.

Point Sensor is nearly impossible to meaningfully buff, so I didn’t bother with trying. It really just needs a meta that makes its location effects useful. I think that thermal ink location could work well for Toxic Mist, but fusing it with Point Sensor just feels like it wouldn’t work. The two subs have completely different aesthetics.

I stand by the idea that Sprinkler works better as a cheap sub, as interesting as its role as an expensive escape tool is. Besides, Torpedo fills the same role, so it’s not completely absent from the game.

Making Angle Shooter target players when bouncing off of walls is an old idea I had even before it got its paint and damage buffs. While is certainly could work and it would enhance the sub’s identity, making it easier to hit just doesn’t sit well with me. Encouraging players to try and hit multiple directs is far from a bad thing, by the way, whether it makes it less unique or otherwise. Distant Angle Shooter splats are hype.

 

[Vidknight]

Honestly like all of these changes personally for me I like the first route for toxic mist being a real threading area for ink hungry weapons while still having a bit a counter play.

 

[Pumpkinteen]

Idea for mist, I notice removing movement from the player is one of the most hated mechanics in a lot of games, so instead of decreasing the speed, have the ink drain effect go absolutely insane
getting hit by the mist on the initial throw will remove around 40% ish, not too much to be annoying but just enough to not counter with a lethal sub, and the speed of which ink drains is MUCH FASTER, swimming through the entirety of mist at a normal swimming speed should leave you with 0 ink, This could make going aroundmist a bit more wanted, get back lines off of specific points and give a lil more reason for squidroll, such as rolling through the mist can briefly keep your tank from being drained

Marker I find very interesting, buffing the location is already great, but imagine if it kept closer to the ground, and the only way to go around it was jumping over it, or having a point sensor explosion if you hit a direct on a player? I find that would be raising the skill ceiling for marker whilehaving it get better value
the damage by walking into it seems OK as an idea but I can imagine it gets really annoying constantly healing that 20 hp accidently walking into it across the whole map

 

[SAMICOM]

Idea for mist, I notice removing movement from the player is one of the most hated mechanics in a lot of games, so instead of decreasing the speed, have the ink drain effect go absolutely insane
getting hit by the mist on the initial throw will remove around 40% ish, not too much to be annoying but just enough to not counter with a lethal sub, and the speed of which ink drains is MUCH FASTER, swimming through the entirety of mist at a normal swimming speed should leave you with 0 ink, This could make going aroundmist a bit more wanted, get back lines off of specific points and give a lil more reason for squidroll, such as rolling through the mist can briefly keep your tank from being drained

Marker I find very interesting, buffing the location is already great, but imagine if it kept closer to the ground, and the only way to go around it was jumping over it, or having a point sensor explosion if you hit a direct on a player? I find that would be raising the skill ceiling for marker whilehaving it get better value
the damage by walking into it seems OK as an idea but I can imagine it gets really annoying constantly healing that 20 hp accidently walking into it across the whole map

oh my god thats amazing...

 

[QuagSass]

Idea for mist, I notice removing movement from the player is one of the most hated mechanics in a lot of games, so instead of decreasing the speed, have the ink drain effect go absolutely insane
getting hit by the mist on the initial throw will remove around 40% ish, not too much to be annoying but just enough to not counter with a lethal sub, and the speed of which ink drains is MUCH FASTER, swimming through the entirety of mist at a normal swimming speed should leave you with 0 ink, This could make going aroundmist a bit more wanted, get back lines off of specific points and give a lil more reason for squidroll, such as rolling through the mist can briefly keep your tank from being drained

This buff would honestly be kinda cool, but you'd have to really be careful with the ink drain. For the average light-midweight weapon this would be a significant debuff without being too annoying, but for heavyweights? They would get essentially neutered if someone threw a mist directly at them.

Some examples
E-liter: Gets 2 full charges after the initial drain. (honestly this one is probably fine)
Explosher: only gets 3 sloshes, might get even less if it was mid-slosh when the mist was thrown.
Hydra Splatling: Gets 1 full-charge, might also lose that depending on where in the mist it is.
Dynamo Roller: gets 3 swings, same issues as Explo.

I think you'd either have to tweak the initial drain numbers a bit, or increase the ink consumption of the mist.
Really make people think whether it's worth it to pop one on the backline/other ink-hungry weapon or to control an area.

 

[Yeenom]

I think it's funny how Angle Shooter literally has no niche. Burst bomb does more damage and paint and point sensor has an AOE effect, torpedo and autobomb are both less noticeable (Ah yes, you've fallen into my trap, an easily noticeable and avoidable line) and as bad as it is, Toxic Mist is better at denying space. I don't even know what they were thinking with AS, maybe like a tripwire thing? But then it also does damage so maybe it's an offensive tool? So instead of trying to finagle with whatever Angle was supposed to be, I'm making a BRAND NEW SUB WITH A SIMALER CONCEPT!

THE HARPOON

Just like angle shooter, it works as an offensive tool and a sensor but it actually works! It does 60 damage on a direct and applies a damage over time effect for about 3 seconds, it also applies a thermal ink effect. It can ricochet once, after that it completely disappears. Ricochet hits only do 40 damage and don't apply any effects. The DOT can be shortened by submerging in ink and moving, it removes the healing effect though. It's a high risk high reward sub. It costs 70% of your tank so it's not something that can be used whenever, Sub Defense also shortens the DOT time. Sub Power Up increases the hitbox. The DOT affects structures and if thrown on a Kraken right before it ends, the user will still get the affect.

 

[SAMICOM]

I think it's funny how Angle Shooter literally has no niche. Burst bomb does more damage and paint and point sensor has an AOE effect, torpedo and autobomb are both less noticeable (Ah yes, you've fallen into my trap, an easily noticeable and avoidable line) and as bad as it is, Toxic Mist is better at denying space. I don't even know what they were thinking with AS, maybe like a tripwire thing? But then it also does damage so maybe it's an offensive tool? So instead of trying to finagle with whatever Angle was supposed to be, I'm making a BRAND NEW SUB WITH A SIMALER CONCEPT!

THE HARPOON

Just like angle shooter, it works as an offensive tool and a sensor but it actually works! It does 60 damage on a direct and applies a damage over time effect for about 3 seconds, it also applies a thermal ink effect. It can ricochet once, after that it completely disappears. Ricochet hits only do 40 damage and don't apply any effects. The DOT can be shortened by submerging in ink and moving, it removes the healing effect though. It's a high risk high reward sub. It costs 70% of your tank so it's not something that can be used whenever, Sub Defense also shortens the DOT time. Sub Power Up increases the hitbox. The DOT affects structures and if thrown on a Kraken right before it ends, the user will still get the affect.

what if angle shooter did

45 damage
1.2x range
almost no start or end lag
can interrupt your own end lag
perfecttt