I kind of don't want Stealth Jump to return in Splatoon 2.

CM2

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I'm just tired of looking up in the sky or looking at which squid icon on the top part of the screen is dead and then predict where is he going to land with :ability_stealthjump:when I have other things to worry about like map control and the location of our enemies. It's also far too abusive with :ability_quickrespawn:making the whole game about nothing but trying to popping trades and then doing it over and over again. I'm not saying everyone is like that but it's one of the reasons I don't want to play TC despite being my favorite mode to play in the game.
 

RespawningJesus

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Honestly, Stealth Jumping by itself is never really a problem in my opinion, but it becomes stupid when QR comes into the equation. If anything, QR should never return, but they lower respawn times to take into account the lack of the ability. But that ain't happening.
 

Tsuchinoko

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I never realized that Stealth Jump and Quick Respawn were something that were abused alongside each other. Even if it is true it just becomes another aspect of the game that you need to take into account so I feel like it should stay in.
 

Dessgeega

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I never realized that Stealth Jump and Quick Respawn were something that were abused alongside each other. Even if it is true it just becomes another aspect of the game that you need to take into account so I feel like it should stay in.
Right on. Players using this tactic suffer from slower super jumps and abilities that can't be used while alive, so it's hardly game-breaking.
 

Tsuchinoko

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Right on. Players using this tactic suffer from slower super jumps and abilities that can't be used while alive, so it's hardly game-breaking.
I'm still relatively new to the game being only level 30 and playing for a few months, but I catch onto mechanics quick and never thought that this was an issue. I have been trying to play a lot more lately to get ready for the second one because I want to attempt going to tournaments and such.

Also onto the real point, I love when a game has me worrying about several different little and dangerous aspects. Keeps you on your toes and way more engaged, so keeping such elements in just adds to the depth of the game. Depth that games like these desperately need in order to continue thriving. Too little mechanics and things start getting boring. More mechanics means more things to learn and keep up with, eventually just making you into a super player.
 

Magic8Ball

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I'm still relatively new to the game being only level 30 and playing for a few months, but I catch onto mechanics quick and never thought that this was an issue. I have been trying to play a lot more lately to get ready for the second one because I want to attempt going to tournaments and such.

Also onto the real point, I love when a game has me worrying about several different little and dangerous aspects. Keeps you on your toes and way more engaged, so keeping such elements in just adds to the depth of the game. Depth that games like these desperately need in order to continue thriving. Too little mechanics and things start getting boring. More mechanics means more things to learn and keep up with, eventually just making you into a super player.
The competitive community is begging for it to be removed, but I like your take on things. When I played League, all the overpowered bull that went on was ridiculous, but if you wanted to be good, then you needed to figure things out and make plays around the brokenness of things (or abuse it yourself and learn why it's so strong). It certainly made me better at the game, and perhaps you're right. If we aren't thinking about things, then the competitive environment might get stale. Instead of complaining, try understanding. It's a nice motto.
 

Tsuchinoko

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The competitive community is begging for it to be removed, but I like your take on things. When I played League, all the overpowered bull that went on was ridiculous, but if you wanted to be good, then you needed to figure things out and make plays around the brokenness of things (or abuse it yourself and learn why it's so strong). It certainly made me better at the game, and perhaps you're right. If we aren't thinking about things, then the competitive environment might get stale. Instead of complaining, try understanding. It's a nice motto.
Exactly! This is something that just happens with games. Mario Kart 8 was one that I was extremely into with Time Trials and racing online. When everyone started finding out about Fire Hopping they all wanted it out. But the people that learned how to use it or figure a way to get around it was fine and understood why it was a help. And honestly it was not a hard concept to grasp/utilize if you put a few hours into really trying to learn it.

With phases of mechanics being discovered and implemented in games it gives it newness and makes people want to come back for more. I doubt Splatoon would be popular if it just had no type of techs in it at all. Even builds for clothing is a big thing that gives advantages. Should that also be taken out if people aren't getting the types of rolls they want so everyone is on an equal level? No. Same with any other mechanic.

What's next, wanting slow movement in enemy ink removed because you die too many times getting stuck not being able to move?
 

Tsuchinoko

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Metas are cyclical anyway. Someone will discover the hip new combo in Splatoon 2 and everyone will start using that.
True, and that's what keeps things interesting too. It's because players always try pushing a games mechanics to try and find the new efficient way of doing things or different way of doing something.

Oh and I've been trying to figure out what Agent 4 is. Can anyone clue me in? I see it all over Splatoon lately.
 

CM2

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I've learned how to adapt to it. It's just that in Splatoon 1 it's sometimes hard to figure out who has stealth jump especially when a stealth jumper and another opponent dies around the same time then it's pretty hard to figure out which squid icon you should pay attention to. Thankfully in Splatoon 2 you can see every player's weapon of choice which will make it easier to track down who has stealth jump.
 

Lonely_Dolphin

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Is that avatar really allowed? xD

I wouldn't mind nor be surprised if Stealth Jump gets dropped as I feel it promotes luck more so and skill less so, and Splatoon 2 seems to be trying make encounters more skill based, but eh not a big deal eitherway.
 

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I always run either stealth jump or ink resist up on my shoes, I kind of want one of them to be taken away so I don't have to choose between every time I make a build and often times, stealth jump gets in the way because you can move so much more freely with ink resist up. Also yeah, Stealth Jump Splash down would be pretty bad, like how Bubblers and Kraken appear just after you've shot the other person due to latency and they survive.
 

SaltyCal

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I wouldn't care if stealth-jump is removed. It seems like it might be deadly with the splashdown. I'm still not going
to use it. I tend to run a lot of :ability_quicksuperjump:. I feel like it's too difficult to be super-jumping all the time in Splatoon 2 since
they switched super-jumping from touching a screen to pressing buttons. I'm sort of eager to see what abilities
involving super-jump Splatoon 2 has to offer.
 

Wuvwii

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I'm with you on the popping trades. It seems the more people know, the more it can shift the focus on how important something like that is. When it's possible to not even realize it's happening. If not removed, the way gear effects each other maybe could change.
 

Sicky

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Hmm, as a Luna Neo main myself (and one who usually runs a QR/SJ build because I don't need anything else on this weapon), I think there is validity to both arguments. On the one hand, I would really like to see SJ removed because of its combo with QR that allows a kamikaze playstyle to be viable - this would mean less cheesy losses in all modes (especially TC) and less people using OHKO weapons well without learning them properly. On the other hand however, I feel that a few simple fixes would stop the primary issue with QR/SJ: 1. Capping QR at 3 mains or 9 subs maximum (e.g. no 6 mains equivalent, only half as much) and 2. Nerfing SJ to prevent you from jumping directly on to the Tower in TC - this last one particularly as it is the only tactic for which there does not exist a reliable way of stopping it (outside of waiting for whole team to respawn and jump, thereby giving up a huge lead) or the community agreeing tacitly not to condone this (i.e. gentleman's rules/sportmanship).

I would love to see people actually learn how powerful weapons like the Luna Neo are, especially on maps like Blackbelly and Ancho-V, in the hands of someone who doesn't need the QR/SJ to do well.
 

Fullmental

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I've never really been on the stealth jump bandwagon if I'm honest. More often I find the benefits of ink resist to be too good to give up. I run weapons that benefit from other things like damage up or ink recovery, so I can't easily just run massive amounts of quick jump to mitigate the downside. The slowdown from super jumping would kill me as I often use a jump to spawn in order to avoid a bad situation that would likely result in dying. The constant disadvantage coupled with loss of other advantages means I can't justify it. Ink resist on the other hand reduces damage taken in enemy ink and keeps you off the minimap, which are vital if you want to stay alive in a bad situation.

That's exactly why I focus on it though, I feel like if I ran quick respawn or quick super jump and stealth jump, I'd be more likely to go for trades and accept more deaths, but in reality I want to minimize deaths and help the team that way. It's the opposite type of play style for these abilities. That said, I don't think it's broken or needs to go.
 

birdiebee

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There are other ways to be someone who rushes in, dies in a trade and rushes back in the whole battle (looking at luna blasters with swim speed and quick respawn). Also, quick superjump with some swim speed and ink resistance makes for fast retreats. These are all annoying things that people can do but they are allowed because they all come with drawbacks. Like @Fullmental mentioned SJ arguably lacks too many benefits to make it more viable than Resistance, and indeed, I tend to see Resistance far more often. The benefits of SJ are more niche, and if you are good at watching the flow of the battle and paying attention to who has what gear, it isn't hard to predict the strategies of SJ users as they are not so varied.

That said, I do use SJ almost always, so I am speaking from experience. If I keep doing the same ****, good players will catch on, anticipate my jump and splat me. Just like with a normal super jump, to be good with SJ you still need to pay attention to ink movement on the map and judge your jumps based on the likelihood of a successful encounter. If you're reckless you'll look like a scrub and everyone will laugh at you.
 

Creator438

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Assuming Nintendo knows the competitive metagame at this point (they have always seemed to, for the most part), I could maybe see Stealth Jump being removed. I'm not really sure if it needs to be, but it's very possible.

A big problem with Stealth Jump was that they balanced it incorrectly. If you remember, a long long time ago, the designers "nerfed" SJ so that the jump was much slower than it originally made a super jump at launch. However, that's not the way they should've done it. You know how everyone says the way to counter stealth jump is to watch the sky so you can see the guy jumping in, then you just pop 'em? Well it just so happens that you WANT the slower jump for that reason: if you take longer to jump in without being detectable by regular means, the person you're jumping to has more time to spread out so when they die, you're not being expected in that very area. You're going to be in a completely different place, and the opponent is going to lose track of you because you didn't jump to a predictable place. Therefore, you don't really need QR to break SJ; it's still very powerful on its own.

That said, it's a great tool for keeping momentum. If you're winning, for example, and you're defending in Splat Zones or pushing in Rainmaker, you can get back in extremely safely and the other team doesn't really have time to focus on you - they have to concentrate on the objective because if they don't, they're going to lose. Stealth Jump lets things like Tentateks, Lunas, Dynamos, you name it, keep the pressure on such that they're even harder to stop than they were before, because not only do they now have some element of surprise added to their approach to crucial areas of a map, but they also have a way of coming back in safely and doing what they do best from there.

I don't know what Splatoon 2's match pace is going to be like, but I think with how fast the game is at this point, Stealth Jump adds to the speed, but at the same time you can argue that we need safe jumps to get back in quickly. The Japanese community actually uses SJ largely as a way of preventing lockouts, which I assume is because they have safe jumps back into areas that may otherwise be taken quickly if a player were to instead swim there from spawn. So in a sense, it helps you fight speed and momentum with speed and safe plays.

Also, I feel like people always jump to the argument of QR/SJ being amazing for trades, making your death irrelevant, without thinking about the significance of the trade given the situation. Trades mean different things for a team, depending on whether they're playing the neutral game, offense, or defense. In neutral, trades normally don't mean too much, but w/ QR/SJ, yes, the trade basically never happened and your death was irrelevant. But you need to look beyond that, because trades are much different in the other two cases I mentioned. They don't impact the defending team as much as the offending team, because the offending team loses one more person who needs to push/go out and fight, whereas if the defense loses a guy, they have other people staying back, sharking, covering angles, etc. This means that a defending player with QR/SJ is doing nothing with its abilities, while attacking players with QR/SJ can make use of their faster respawn times and safe jumps.

I'm sort of shifting focus back to problems here, but I think they shouldn't have made it a shoe ability. And I'm surprised nobody has brought this up. I feel like the fact that it's a shoe ability makes it that much more elusive, and people feel like they're getting screwed over by something they weren't expecting. I mean, let's be honest here: you have, I don't know, roughly 2 seconds per team to see what every player on a team is using/wearing. That's not a lot of time to take in everything the other team has on them; you may see what at least one or two people are wearing and/or using as a weapon, but you won't catch everything. Plus the shoes on an inkling are the hardest gear pieces to visually see, since 1) they're small as hell, and 2) the spawn-in positions were done wrong, so you're probably going to miss certain information on a character in the back, on the left, or on the right. I really think if anything, it should've been a headgear ability so that you could look at a guy and immediately say "That guy's using SJ, Imma 'bully him' for it". I know @CM2 essentially brought up the idea that seeing the other team's weapons will give you an idea of who's running SJ in the next game, but this isn't necessarily true. Specifically in solo queue, everybody runs different sets, whether those sets are built or haphazard. And more to that point, you can't generalize every weapon into a QR/SJ category. It's easy to predict it on Luna Neo, but things like Tentatek and Dynamo (also prominent QRSJ users) have plenty of different builds. For example, some Tentateks run speed builds or defense/damage builds, and some Dynamos run Damage Up builds. You could even run efficiency builds on Dynamo. They have plenty of options, and as such you couldn't just look at a weapon at the top of the screen and say "oh he's using that" because just that's not how it works.

That's really it from me. Also, why are people saying Stealth Jump + Splash Down is going to be broken? Assuming they keep the "you can't attack during a stealth jump" part of it, you won't be able to use the special anyway.
 

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