I wonder if competitive people will find ridiculous methods for winning

[WaifuRaccoonBL]

As long as it isn't a glitch or something I don't think it will matter much. If they can be shot, it won't alter my style at all.

That all depends on what you mean by glitch. Like there is wavedashing, then there is moon jumping, walking through walls, etc.

 

[RespawningJesus]

As long as it isn't a glitch or something I don't think it will matter much. If they can be shot, it won't alter my style at all.


I do think the sniper rifle is very important BUT I don't think there should be more than 1 one on a team. I think that gun is more for the utility it brings for your team. The other guns should be focused on inking/winning. While the sniper is pretty much there to assist, make the other team's life miserable, and inking when they can.

Basicly, one sniper, one melee, and two that can adapt to multiple ranges is going to be ideal in my opinion.

 

[Kris]

That all depends on what you mean by glitch. Like there is wavedashing, then there is moon jumping, walking through walls, etc.

walking through walls would be a glitch. Same with going beneath the map and firing below. Or a cute one in World at War. You hide inside a rock, You can shoot through, but cannot be damaged. You could Do this in Battlefield bad company 2 on one of the maps that had control points. It was a jungle stage and had place where a plane crashed down by the water.


As for the others, I don't see too much of an issue once you are aware of them, you know what to look for. Similar to someone finding an obscure ledge to sit on and wait for unsuspecting people.


But I don't think I really have to worry much. I think once they are known, the dev team will patch it. If I find one, I'll personally try to make it popular for the sole purpose of getting it removed from the game. :3

 

[FunkyLobster]

just came in this thread, and can someone tell me why are techniques suddenly considered a bad thing?

it only raises the skill ceiling, and it wont affect you at all if you dont want to use them. players who are playing competitively and using advanced techniques such as the already discovered splatterhopping are going to level up really fast and you won't be in matchmaking with them anymore.

nobody is forcing them upon you; you can play the game however you want. even ranked battles are probably going to be pretty casual until you get into higher ranked matchmaking with A ranked players.

casual and competitive players can co-exist, they already do in tons of games. they already do in tons of NINTENDO games, too; competitive mario kart and smash players don't do anything to hurt casual players

also if you're against competitive play in splatoon... what are you doing in the competitive board of this forum, lol

 

[Siledh]

just came in this thread, and can someone tell me why are techniques suddenly considered a bad thing?

it only raises the skill ceiling, and it wont affect you at all if you dont want to use them. players who are playing competitively and using advanced techniques such as the already discovered splatterhopping are going to level up really fast and you won't be in matchmaking with them anymore.

nobody is forcing them upon you; you can play the game however you want. even ranked battles are probably going to be pretty casual until you get into higher ranked matchmaking with A ranked players.

casual and competitive players can co-exist, they already do in tons of games. they already do in tons of NINTENDO games, too; competitive mario kart and smash players don't do anything to hurt casual players

also if you're against competitive play in splatoon... what are you doing in the competitive board of this forum, lol

Because not everyone wants to have to spend hours practising precise inputs to be able to do certain techs because if they can't do those tech, they don't really stand a chance of competing. It's not about the skill ceiling, it's about the skill floor.

A person doesn't stand a chance in Melee, for example, without being able to wavedash, L-cancel, etc. That's not really fun to compete. Part of the joy of Sm4sh
(and hopefully Splatoon) is that the skill floor is pretty low, but the ceiling is still being pushed. You don't need to be able to Perfect Pivot, Jump Cancel Throw or do a DACIT in Sm4sh to be able to win, even at offline competitions. It certainly helps, but it is not necessary (yet).

Some people want to be competitively good at the game without having to invest hours and hours on those 1 frame inputs.

 

[FunkyLobster]

Because not everyone wants to have to spend hours practising precise inputs to be able to do certain techs because if they can't do those tech, they don't really stand a chance of competing. It's not about the skill ceiling, it's about the skill floor.

A person doesn't stand a chance in Melee, for example, without being able to wavedash, L-cancel, etc. That's not really fun to compete. Part of the joy of Sm4sh
(and hopefully Splatoon) is that the skill floor is pretty low, but the ceiling is still being pushed. You don't need to be able to Perfect Pivot, Jump Cancel Throw or do a DACIT in Sm4sh to be able to win, even at offline competitions. It certainly helps, but it is not necessary (yet).

Some people want to be competitively good at the game without having to invest hours and hours on those 1 frame inputs.

...except you don't have to do that to have fun playing melee. you can leave the items on and play the uncompetitive stages like temple or corneria all you want. nobody is forcing the competitive scene on you.

if you want to play melee competitively, then why is this a problem at all? if you dont want to learn the tech behind the game, that's not a competitive mentality. you should be taking advantage of every little thing you have. the techniques like wavedashing, l canceling, teching, etc are GOOD things designed to help you and facilitate skill over the game. it's what makes a good player.

if you like untechnical games like smash 4, that's fine, but advanced techniques and difficult inputs are not a problem at all.

 

[Siledh]

...except you don't have to do that to have fun playing melee. you can leave the items on and play the uncompetitive stages like temple or corneria all you want. nobody is forcing the competitive scene on you.

if you want to play melee competitively, then why is this a problem at all? if you dont want to learn the tech behind the game, that's not a competitive mentality. you should be taking advantage of every little thing you have. the techniques like wavedashing, l canceling, teching, etc are GOOD things designed to help you and facilitate skill over the game. it's what makes a good player.

if you like untechnical games like smash 4, that's fine, but advanced techniques and difficult inputs are not a problem at all.

I never said they are, I said some people want to be able to compete without putting all that time in. I personally like working on my tech, but not everyone does and it doesn't make them less competitive because they don't want to have to learn a lot of different techniques just to stand a chance of being good. Especially if they don't have the time to spare or money to give them the time to spare.

I personally don't see tech as a good or bad thing. It simply is and I will make use of it. I don't think it's inherently good, though.

 

[FunkyLobster]

I never said they are, I said some people want to be able to compete without putting all that time in. I personally like working on my tech, but not everyone does and it doesn't make them less competitive because they don't want to have to learn a lot of different techniques just to stand a chance of being good. Especially if they don't have the time to spare or money to give them the time to spare.

I personally don't see tech as a good or bad thing. It simply is and I will make use of it. I don't think it's inherently good, though.

there is such thing as a bad advanced technique that hurts the game, but a lot of players who think ATs are bad are being extremely arbitrary. if you don't want to use them because they're hard to pull off, then don't...? and if you don't want to use a technique because you think it's lame or hurts the pace of the game (like planking in brawl) then don't...? nobody is forcing them upon you. if you were invested enough in the competitive scene to go to a tournament you'd probably want to use every AT at your disposal and have the will to put effort into practicing them. there does not need to be a middle ground for technical and untechnical games. the more techniques there are in a game, the higher the skill ceiling, and if you disagree with using them, then you don't have to...

and if you think an AT is cheap, so what? if you think airdodging out of a combo in smash 4 is unfair or waveshining in melee is too effective, there's nothing stopping you from learning and doing it too. wishing that they'd be removed from the game is an unhealthy mentality; the ARE fair. you CAN do them too. and if you don't want to sink time and effort into learning them, you don't have to. there's always other games (which is what you were trying to say, i think)

but actively wishing ATs were not in splatoon because you don't want to learn them is just a really unhealthy mentality to have. there's nothing in the way of you improving.

this is a really good article that goes in depth to the competitive and scrub mentality and using techniques to your disposal. i really suggest you read it, it words everything better than i can.

 

[Siledh]

there is such thing as a bad advanced technique that hurts the game, but a lot of players who think ATs are bad are being extremely arbitrary. if you don't want to use them because they're hard to pull off, then don't...? and if you don't want to use a technique because you think it's lame or hurts the pace of the game (like planking in brawl) then don't...? nobody is forcing them upon you. if you were invested enough in the competitive scene to go to a tournament you'd probably want to use every AT at your disposal and have the will to put effort into practicing them. there does not need to be a middle ground for technical and untechnical games. the more techniques there are in a game, the higher the skill ceiling, and if you disagree with using them, then you don't have to...

and if you think an AT is cheap, so what? if you think airdodging out of a combo in smash 4 is unfair or waveshining in melee is too effective, there's nothing stopping you from learning and doing it too. wishing that they'd be removed from the game is an unhealthy mentality; the ARE fair. you CAN do them too. and if you don't want to sink time and effort into learning them, you don't have to. there's always other games (which is what you were trying to say, i think)

but actively wishing ATs were not in splatoon because you don't want to learn them is just a really unhealthy mentality to have. there's nothing in the way of you improving.

this is a really good article that goes in depth to the competitive and scrub mentality and using techniques to your disposal. i really suggest you read it, it words everything better than i can.

Not sure why this is all directed at me when I have no suggested I don't want AT in the game, just explaining why some people might not.

Not once did I suggest AT were cheap, unfair or that I wanted them removed. Please read what I said before rushing to white knight AT.

If people want to compete in Splatoon, they will need a certain level of skill. That's called the skill floor. AT raise the skill floor and the skill ceiling. The more AT in a game, the higher the skill floor because the majority of competitors will use them to their advantage, as they should. As a Link main, it'd be daft for me not to bombslide or tether trump, for example. However, sometimes, like with Melee, the skill floor can get so high that people who want to be competitive can't actually be competitive because they have neither the time nor the money to dedicate to learn all the AT required just to be able to save face, let alone win. This is not about other games or scrub mentality, it's about practicality.

No one knows what AT will be in Splatoon. There may be tonnes or very little. But a lower skill floor makes for a stronger competitive scene as it allows more people to enter without feeling like fools. And some people don't want that skill floor raised by the presence of lots of AT. There's absolutely nothing wrong or mentally unhealthy about not wanting tonnes of AT in a game. And frankly it's disturbing you feel it is.

If there are lots of AT in Splatoon, I'll learn them. If not, it won't be a worse game for it. You play the game you have, but until then, you can dream about the game you want. You want one with lots of AT: others do not. Me? I don't give a **** as long as the game is good.

 

[FunkyLobster]

Not sure why this is all directed at me when I have no suggested I don't want AT in the game, just explaining why some people might not.

Not once did I suggest AT were cheap, unfair or that I wanted them removed. Please read what I said before rushing to white knight AT.

If people want to compete in Splatoon, they will need a certain level of skill. That's called the skill floor. AT raise the skill floor and the skill ceiling. The more AT in a game, the higher the skill floor because the majority of competitors will use them to their advantage, as they should. As a Link main, it'd be daft for me not to bombslide or tether trump, for example. However, sometimes, like with Melee, the skill floor can get so high that people who want to be competitive can't actually be competitive because they have neither the time nor the money to dedicate to learn all the AT required just to be able to save face, let alone win. This is not about other games or scrub mentality, it's about practicality.

No one knows what AT will be in Splatoon. There may be tonnes or very little. But a lower skill floor makes for a stronger competitive scene as it allows more people to enter without feeling like fools. And some people don't want that skill floor raised by the presence of lots of AT. There's absolutely nothing wrong or mentally unhealthy about not wanting tonnes of AT in a game. And frankly it's disturbing you feel it is.

If there are lots of AT in Splatoon, I'll learn them. If not, it won't be a worse game for it. You play the game you have, but until then, you can dream about the game you want. You want one with lots of AT: others do not. Me? I don't give a **** as long as the game is good.

i didn't mean to suggest in my last reply that you didn't want them in or to make it a personal attack on you, sorry if it came across that way

what i mean to say that not wanting ATs in a game can be a slippery slope or somewhat arbitrary at times, because a lot of ATs in a lot of games are completely fair. i understand that if someones a full time student or has a busy life and wants to get into a game but cant because its just too demanding of their time, that sucks. im in a similar situation myself and cant play melee or tf2 like i used to. but it is unhealthy to just impose this weird mentality that all ATs are bad and are going to hurt the game, either because "its unfair" or "its unfun." if you dont like them, dont use them; they are not being forced upon you. and if you want to play competitively, then youll probably be ok with using them in the first place.

if someone hopes for splatoon to be deep but without a huge pool of ATs, like cs:go in comparison to cs 1.6, because they dont have the time to practice them or just because they think its more interesting with that kind of formula, i can understand that

but if someone hopes for splatoon to be deep without a huge pool of ATs just because they dont have the patience to use them, then thats their own fault

 

[FunkyLobster]

I agree with this. If you want to play competitively, you need to effectively use every tool at your disposal. This will definitely scare people away, but those people would never have stood a chance in a competitive setting. If ATs happen, they are going to happen.

But I understand the other side of the argument too. Too many ATs could affect the growth of the competitive scene. Right now though, the competitive scene seems to be growing a t a good rate. If the game is not very AT heavy, then we can get more interest for the game. If it is AT heavy, the competitive players are going to stay, regardless of it all.

wasnt my point at all

i understand that some players might not have the time available to learn all the ATs of the game in order to compete, im talking about players who have a desire for the game to have no ATs just because they dont like them or they think its unfun to use them

 

[RespawningJesus]

wasnt my point at all

i understand that some players might not have the time available to learn all the ATs of the game in order to compete, im talking about players who have a desire for the game to have no ATs just because they dont like them or they think its unfun to use them

Welp, I guess I did misread your post. Disregard.

 

[Platypudding]

There's no such thing as a skill floor. That's not how things work. AT isn't a 100% necessary thing in order to compete in lower and medium levels of competitive melee. There are some notable players who dont use tech and still get decent results. Sure, you have to put practice time into tech to learn it, but I'm gonna be honest here. Putting time into learning tech is the same as putting time into learning anything else. smash 4 isn't any different. People who are more dedicated and put more time into a game will always have that advantage over you, whether it be about tech skill, game knowledge or general skill.

 

[Draayder]

I think there can be healthy and unhealthy techs, stuff like splatterhopping looks to be relatively easy to do, has decent rewards without being overwhelming, and isn't overly centralizing. Stuff like L-cancelling in melee though? That was just kind of an arbitrary button press which added nothing to the game and would have been just fine being built in entirely. Sure it technically raised the skill ceiling, but that's not necessarily a good thing if it starts excluding people who might be fantastic at strategy and mind games and other less technical aspects who just can't keep up with the sheer number of inputs needed.

If we find any AT that are particularly unhealthy or straight up glitches I'm pretty confident Nintendo will just patch them out. Looking at TF2 they've got like, what, half a dozen ATs? Rocket/Sticky Jumping, crouch jumping if you count that, pyro's airblast jumping, and a few ways to abuse turret AIs? 3 of those are character specific so if you suck at rocket jumping you can just play one of the other 8 options in competitive even (assuming highlander, otherwise you've usually just got soldier/demo/medic/scout to choose from but still options).

 

[Undr]

Are just hope we don't have a divide here on the forums between competitive players and casual players.

 

[FunkyLobster]

But when people try to force competitiveness into casul games likes Smash, Mario Kart and Splatoon, yeah, it totally kills the fun.

I think there can be healthy and unhealthy techs, stuff like splatterhopping looks to be relatively easy to do, has decent rewards without being overwhelming, and isn't overly centralizing. Stuff like L-cancelling in melee though? That was just kind of an arbitrary button press which added nothing to the game and would have been just fine being built in entirely. Sure it technically raised the skill ceiling, but that's not necessarily a good thing if it starts excluding people who might be fantastic at strategy and mind games and other less technical aspects who just can't keep up with the sheer number of inputs needed.

If we find any AT that are particularly unhealthy or straight up glitches I'm pretty confident Nintendo will just patch them out. Looking at TF2 they've got like, what, half a dozen ATs? Rocket/Sticky Jumping, crouch jumping if you count that, pyro's airblast jumping, and a few ways to abuse turret AIs? 3 of those are character specific so if you suck at rocket jumping you can just play one of the other 8 options in competitive even (assuming highlander, otherwise you've usually just got soldier/demo/medic/scout to choose from but still options).

l-cancels are actually one of the best ways to balance melee

if the game just had a low base landing lag as opposed to high with the option to l cancel like it does now, imagine how fox would play. he'd be so easy to combo with, with considerably less inputs, and because of that he'd be even more common of a choice than he is right now. it's not just fox, every character that has an interesting dynamic because of the input heavy techniques (falco, falcon, hell even marth) would be so much easier and less 3 dimensional if there was an auto l-cancel feature or something

if there was a tech like, oh say, you could cancel the helplessness state after an airdodge, that would be AWFUL for melee. it'd slow the game down by so much because you could just abruptly end a combo and revert the game back to neutral, or even worse, punish the other player for being aggressive in a fight. it'd make the game really campy

going back on topic, i'm excited to see what ATs are discovered for splatoon. hopefully a lot of movement focused stuff; those are pretty important for a shooter to have. splatterhopping is promising, and as you already said, it's not over centralizing or unhealthy

 

[zmop]

the ink wall will be abusable no doubt that's about the only thing i can see so far. anything that prevents forward movement always is OP

 

[FunkyLobster]

the ink wall will be abusable no doubt that's about the only thing i can see so far. anything that prevents forward movement always is OP

ooh thats a good point, it could actually slow down the game by a lot of its spammable

the fact that it's a sub weapon that depletes 2/3 of your ink makes it more balanced since youll pretty much have to run away with your tail between your legs while the enemy team is taking it down, but hopefully theres some more limitation to it

 

[RespawningJesus]

ooh thats a good point, it could actually slow down the game by a lot of its spammable

the fact that it's a sub weapon that depletes 2/3 of your ink makes it more balanced since youll pretty much have to run away with your tail between your legs while the enemy team is taking it down, but hopefully theres some more limitation to it

The wall is going to set up plays for your team. At least one person per team should have it. It also is, like you said, great for running away. As soon as I saw the wall, I knew a lot of people were going to use it, due to the large amounts of utility the wall has.

 

[FunkyLobster]

The wall is going to set up plays for your team. At least one person per team should have it. It also is, like you said, great for running away. As soon as I saw the wall, I knew a lot of people were going to use it, due to the large amounts of utility the wall has.

it's definitely an effective defensive tool, and i don't think it will be overly centralized since there's other effective sub weapons available to use. it'll probably be used for a safe(r) retreat when you've overextended, or like you said, to set up plays for your team. also in one of ProJared's videos (i think it was splat zones?) someone threw a wall down in an almost perfect position and it won them the zone. we're probably going to find "wall spots" for each map like that early in the meta