Neutrals/Counterpicks/Bans For map selection in tournaments thread

[GameGalaxy64]

I say if one team is accused of stalling, the other team could submit a video to the TOs and they can do whatever they feel is necessary based on the evidence.

 

[Agosta44]

I say if one team is accused of stalling, the other team could submit a video to the TOs and they can do whatever they feel is necessary based on the evidence.

Oh boy MK part 2. I'd rather just play honest games in SZ and TC and avoid the nonsense of Rainmaker all together.

 

[GameGalaxy64]

Oh boy MK part 2. I'd rather just play honest games in SZ and TC and avoid the nonsense of Rainmaker all together.

Rainmaker hasn't proven a big problem in competitive play as of yet, just in hypothetical situations. We should see how it plays out in upcoming tournaments (Such as the new SCL tournament which will be ready very soon) before we make any premature decisions.

 

[Agosta44]

Rainmaker hasn't proven a big problem in competitive play as of yet, just in hypothetical situations. We should see how it plays out in upcoming tournaments (Such as the new SCL tournament which will be ready very soon) before we make any premature decisions.

Weren't the same things said about Turf War not being problematic and could be interesting for viewers? Do we have to have teams show off the issues with the mode in tournament setting before people stop being dismissive of the issues? You really can't just go in and say "no stalling" because that's a major playing point of the mode whether it be small amounts, a big push then stalling the rest of the game, or running away to a corner or out of bounds with the Rainmaker during the final minute.

I really disagree with the "no stalling" rule because there will always always -always- be people who will come up with any excuse for a win regardless. Adding a rule to try and prevent a major strategy for this mode is a disaster waiting to happen. It's like trying to ban zoning in Street Fighter.

The only thing I see it doing is slowing down tournaments and causing annoyance for the players due to how the mode is played and if there -was- a rule for stalling, there will be people trying to pull penalties.

Note: I am fully aware that you do not have to play defensively or stall in Rainmaker. That does not mean it's an invalid strategy nor less effective.

 

[WydrA]

Weren't the same things said about Turf War not being problematic and could be interesting for viewers? Do we have to have teams show off the issues with the mode in tournament setting before people stop being dismissive of the issues? You really can't just go in and say "no stalling" because that's a major playing point of the mode whether it be small amounts, a big push then stalling the rest of the game, or running away to a corner or out of bounds with the Rainmaker during the final minute.

I really disagree with the "no stalling" rule because there will always always -always- be people who will come up with any excuse for a win regardless. Adding a rule to try and prevent a major strategy for this mode is a disaster waiting to happen. It's like trying to ban zoning in Street Fighter.

The only thing I see it doing is slowing down tournaments and causing annoyance for the players due to how the mode is played and if there -was- a rule for stalling, there will be people trying to pull penalties.

Note: I am fully aware that you do not have to play defensively or stall in Rainmaker. That does not mean it's an invalid strategy nor less effective.

No one's saying the strategy is at all ineffective. The issue , as I mentioned in my last post is that it's boring and frustrating to play against and to watch. It will push players and spectators away from the game, as it does from every game that it has ever been used in. I know saying this is likely to ruffle feathers, but I'll say it anyway: It's not considered a respectful or honorable way to win because it sacrifices interesting, fun ways of playing the game, just so your team can get your winning result. Giving teams an easy/semi easy way to win matches should never be put above bringing in new spectators and players. that's how it has always been for every video game and sport since ever. From boxing, to football (real and otherwise), to basketball, to smash bros, to street fighter. Splatoon is no exception.
Also I don't see how having a rule against it will slow tournaments down. Stalling doesn't end the game any quicker, in fact it decreases the chance of the of such.

 

[GameGalaxy64]

Weren't the same things said about Turf War not being problematic and could be interesting for viewers? Do we have to have teams show off the issues with the mode in tournament setting before people stop being dismissive of the issues? You really can't just go in and say "no stalling" because that's a major playing point of the mode whether it be small amounts, a big push then stalling the rest of the game, or running away to a corner or out of bounds with the Rainmaker during the final minute.

I really disagree with the "no stalling" rule because there will always always -always- be people who will come up with any excuse for a win regardless. Adding a rule to try and prevent a major strategy for this mode is a disaster waiting to happen. It's like trying to ban zoning in Street Fighter.

The only thing I see it doing is slowing down tournaments and causing annoyance for the players due to how the mode is played and if there -was- a rule for stalling, there will be people trying to pull penalties.

Note: I am fully aware that you do not have to play defensively or stall in Rainmaker. That does not mean it's an invalid strategy nor less effective.

Just so I get a better understanding of where you are coming from, do you propose that we ban RM or not? You have valid points and everything, and I get that you have good intentions.

 

[Flying_Tortoise]

actually Agosta is Pro- getting rid of RM, because stalling is a possibility. His stance is that since you can't stop stalling it shouldn't be a competitive mode played in tournaments.
unless I misinterpreted his posts.

edit: idk how to feel about the idea of banning it still tho. but that's just because I'm hesistant to ban anything

 

[GameGalaxy64]

actually Agosta is Pro- getting rid of RM, because stalling is a possibility. His stance is that since you can't stop stalling it shouldn't be a competitive mode played in tournaments.
unless I misinterpreted his posts.

Yeah, that's what I interpreted. I just think its too early to make any final decisions. Sure, its good to speculate and all, but we should gather more data and let it play out before we make our choice.

 

[Agosta44]

No one's saying the strategy is at all ineffective. The issue , as I mentioned in my last post is that it's boring and frustrating to play against and to watch. It will push players and spectators away from the game, as it does from every game that it has ever been used in. I know saying this is likely to ruffle feathers, but I'll say it anyway: It's not considered a respectful or honorable way to win because it sacrifices interesting, fun ways of playing the game, just so your team can get your winning result. Giving teams an easy/semi easy way to win matches should never be put above bringing in new spectators and players. that's how it has always been for every video game and sport since ever. From boxing, to football (real and otherwise), to basketball, to smash bros, to street fighter. Splatoon is no exception.
Also I don't see how having a rule against it will slow tournaments down. Stalling doesn't end the game any quicker, in fact it decreases the chance of the of such.

Gamerbee played Elena at EVO this year and spammed Healing like no other, bringing almost all games to timeouts. There will never be a rule against this. Rather than discussing if Healing should be banned, the question is asked if she's the best character to have as a secondarly. Article here: http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2015/...hodox-style-elena-best-pocket-character-usf4/

Regardless of if people enjoy watching it or not, people will do it. Dhalsim is a zoning based character. Laming you out with fireballs, pokes, and teleports. Neither of these things will ever be banned because stalling/zoning/cheesing/whatever is a valid strategy whether people like it or not. It is not "dishonorable" or "disrespectful". It's a different way to play the game and a different way to break down the opponent mentally. It is as valid as rushing down an opponent with a character that is designed for rushdown.

With Splatoon, it's different, because Rainmaker is a separate mode. We can choose one 3 options:

-Play it as is
-Make our own player-made banning of stalling (which is a valid strategy and opens up player-based interpretations of what "stalling" is)
-Disallow Rainmaker in Competitive Play/Tournaments

I'm all for trying Rainmaker out to see how viable it actually is, but in my opinion it has too many problems in comparison to Splat Zones and Tower Control. If you dislike how the mode is played, get rid of the mode and play the ones that work rather than attempting to get one to work. It would be the equivalent of trying to add death total or point total into win condition for turf war.

Also I don't see how having a rule against it will slow tournaments down. Stalling doesn't end the game any quicker, in fact it decreases the chance of the of such.

Player interpretation. If they are upset about losing and there is a stalling rule put in place certain individuals will always try and push and manipulate rules. That is the major flaw in player-driven rule sets. I played Mario Kart competitively for 7 years. I ran 1000+ player weekly leagues. I ran massive FFA tournaments. There will always be people that try to manipulate the rules to get the W. With Splatoon it's different because people try to get tournaments done in a single night rather than over a multiple week period. If you look at the Booyah Battle, they had massive delays and miscommunication between TOs. Now imagine that but with people complaining about x team or y player attempting to stall and they have video footage etc. Now you have to wait for:

-arguments with TOs
-video uploading
-TO discussion
-person complaining and arguing with TO to get the desired result

etc. You're opening yourself to a new can of worms because people don't like a certain playstyle or because there may be some viewers who dislike turtling.

 

[WydrA]

Gamerbee played Elena at EVO this year and spammed Healing like no other, bringing almost all games to timeouts. There will never be a rule against this. Rather than discussing if Healing should be banned, the question is asked if she's the best character to have as a secondarly. Article here: http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2015/...hodox-style-elena-best-pocket-character-usf4/

Regardless of if people enjoy watching it or not, people will do it. Dhalsim is a zoning based character. Laming you out with fireballs, pokes, and teleports. Neither of these things will ever be banned because stalling/zoning/cheesing/whatever is a valid strategy whether people like it or not. It is not "dishonorable" or "disrespectful". It's a different way to play the game and a different way to break down the opponent mentally. It is as valid as rushing down an opponent with a character that is designed for rushdown.

Zoning/spamming are not the same thing as stalling. Zoning and spamming both have purposes essential to gameplay and are not aimed towards running out the clock. Because these things are essential to certain character playstyles they cannot be banned because they destroy the viability of certain characters and alienate a large portion of the playerbase.
While they're often still considered annoying, neither of these things are considered dishonorable or disrespectful at higher levels of play (noobs still think they are). Stalling however is. When people spam or are super zone heavy, people will often be annoyed and call the character boring in the community and in chat. When someone stalls to win a match the comunity will often become quite filled with vitriol towards that player. See: Zero (post- nintendo world championships), StaticManny and other Sonc players who do the same.

Also the fact the reaction between the two i so different further proves the point that stalling is often easy to see/differentiate.

With Splatoon, it's different, because Rainmaker is a separate mode. We can choose one 3 options:

-Play it as is
-Make our own player-made banning of stalling (which is a valid strategy and opens up player-based interpretations of what "stalling" is)
-Disallow Rainmaker in Competitive Play/Tournaments

I'm all for trying Rainmaker out to see how viable it actually is, but in my opinion it has too many problems in comparison to Splat Zones and Tower Control. If you dislike how the mode is played, get rid of the mode and play the ones that work rather than attempting to get one to work. It would be the equivalent of trying to add death total or point total into win condition for turf war.

I see the options as:

-Play it as is; hope staling continues not to be a problem
-Play it as is with stalling being banned. Now there is no chance that people try and make stalling the go-to way of winning a match, and we don't affect or regress the current Rainmaker meta. allowing it to grow and become an offensive, interesting meta game that players and spectators alike can (hopefully) respect.
-Disallow Rainmaker because we're scared that something might be a problem, even though it's not right now and there's a decent chance it won't be one in the future.

So in other words, I too am all for trying Rainmaker out to see how viable it is. In my personal experience, I think it has the potential to do fine competitively. I don't dislike how the mode is played, because no one is actually playing the mode this way yet. I'm suggesting a way to prevent from ever even going down that route.

Also, your comparison is a false equivalency. the complications of trying to add Death and point total to turf war is much much more complex than a simple ban. It would also affect turf wars current meta where a ban would not. It would also mean a complete overhaul as to how turf wars is viewed and played, and what its main objectives are. Banning stalling does none of these things to Rainmaker.

Player interpretation. If they are upset about losing and there is a stalling rule put in place certain individuals will always try and push and manipulate rules. That is the major flaw in player-driven rule sets. I played Mario Kart competitively for 7 years. I ran 1000+ player weekly leagues. I ran massive FFA tournaments. There will always be people that try to manipulate the rules to get the W. With Splatoon it's different because people try to get tournaments done in a single night rather than over a multiple week period. If you look at the Booyah Battle, they had massive delays and miscommunication between TOs. Now imagine that but with people complaining about x team or y player attempting to stall and they have video footage etc. Now you have to wait for:

-arguments with TOs
-video uploading
-TO discussion
-person complaining and arguing with TO to get the desired result

etc. You're opening yourself to a new can of worms because people don't like a certain playstyle or because there may be some viewers who dislike turtling.

that may be true if stalling wasn't incredibly easy to see. How it should actually go, at least theoretically, is:
Players complain of stalling, hand over video to TO and point to certain point in match. TO watches certain point, sees if they have any valid motive for what they are doing other than running out the clock.
If yes, it is not stalling. Tourney continues.
If no, stalling team is DQ'd.
Though to be honest, this shouldn't be a problem if the ban appears early on in the meta, because that way no one would put time into learning effective stalling methods (for fear of DQ).

 

[Hitzel]

I'm sorry, but banning stalling is not an option because it's not discrete:

"Discrete
The thing to be banned must be able to be “completely defined.” Imagine that in a fighting game, repeating a certain sequence of five moves over and over is the best tactic in the game. Further suppose that doing so is “taboo” and that players want to ban it. There is no concrete definition of exactly what must be banned. Can players do three repetitions of the five moves? What about two reps? What about one? What about repeating the first four moves and omitting the fifth? Is that okay? The game becomes a test of who is willing to play as closely as possible to the “taboo tactic” without breaking the (arbitrary) letter of the law defining the tactic.

Or in a first-person shooter game, consider the notion of banning “camping” (sitting in one place for too long). No friendly agreement between the players is necessary for the ban, which at least means it’s enforceable. The server can monitor the positions of players, and it knows exactly who breaks the rule and can hand out penalties accordingly. The ban is enforceable, but the problem is being able to completely define camping. If camping is defined as staying within one zone for 3 minutes, and if it really is the best tactic, then sitting in that zone for 2 minutes 59 seconds becomes the best tactic. It’s a slippery slope because there will always exist camping tactics arbitrarily close to the specific kind of camping that is banned.

Here’s an example of a completely defined game element. In the card game Magic: The Gathering, if a particular card is deemed to be too good, then it is possible to ban it. One can define completely that “that card cannot be used.” There is no fear of players still “sort of” using it, in the same way they could still “sort of” repeat the moves from the fighting game, or “sort of” camp for 2 minutes 59 seconds above. The card is a discrete entity that can feasibly be banned."

Source: Playing to Win by David Sirlin, Chapter 6: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned
I suggest reading this chapter before discussing bans in general.

Stalling is not a problem in this game anyway, and even if it was, banning "stalling" is just a poor, embarrassing way for a community to handle its game. The correct response is to omit problem map + gametype combinations from tournaments and play on better-suited combos more often, and that doesn't need to happen yet. The ban isn't even warranted.

 

[Zero Emission]

Stalling with RM is only remotely viable on Saltspray. On any other maps, if the other team has any sort of map control it is just risky and pointless.

Also, inking up mid section on Bluefin and spamming tornadoes is NOT stalling. It's Zoning. You gave up map control so the opponents has every right to keep you out, not dissimilar to Splat Zone.

If you're afraid of stalling in Saltspray, put some beacons in the back or just have really good control of the top lane. If you can't do that then you are simply outplayed so you can't really complain about that.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Stalling is very possiable on more than just rig. I don't know why people don't can't think outside the box on this one...Here, lemme name another one for you guys.

On Morray Towers, you can get an even more obnoxious camp going, than the one on rig. Get a point lead, then jump off the stage, so the RM gets reseted. Blow up the shield for free specail and have your team reset into safe positions. Then let the other team get the RM. Force them to go up your lookout. The plan here, is to kill them once they get on/above one of the platforms. If you kill them on and or above one of those platforms, all you gotta do is never let that sheild pop, and you won the game. That spot is beyond easy to protect, as the team doing this has the high ground, the whole time.

There is more than just one or two stages you can stall teams out, it works on a lot more stages than the community seems to be aware of. This mode has so many problems, I rather not, "give it a try." Between all the camping strats, to the rate you get specails... This mode is just something, I personally can't support.

 

[° Moteki]

RM for commercial purpose would be nice

 

[Agosta44]

Stalling with RM is only remotely viable on Saltspray. On any other maps, if the other team has any sort of map control it is just risky and pointless.

Also, inking up mid section on Bluefin and spamming tornadoes is NOT stalling. It's Zoning. You gave up map control so the opponents has every right to keep you out, not dissimilar to Splat Zone.

If you're afraid of stalling in Saltspray, put some beacons in the back or just have really good control of the top lane. If you can't do that then you are simply outplayed so you can't really complain about that.

These are stalling points for mostly all maps. You can go out of bounds and under the stage on both Walleye and Bluefin as well. Many of these spots are more effective than Saltspray. The obvious spot is not always the strongest.

 

[Hitzel]

Stalling is very possiable on more than just rig. I don't know why people don't can't think outside the box on this one...Here, lemme name another one for you guys.

On Morray Towers, you can get an even more obnoxious camp going, than the one on rig. Get a point lead, then jump off the stage, so the RM gets reseted. Blow up the shield for free specail and have your team reset into safe positions. Then let the other team get the RM. Force them to go up your lookout. The plan here, is to kill them once they get on/above one of the platforms. If you kill them on and or above one of those platforms, all you gotta do is never let that sheild pop, and you won the game. That spot is beyond easy to protect, as the team doing this has the high ground, the whole time.

There is more than just one or two stages you can stall teams out, it works on a lot more stages than the community seems to be aware of. This mode has so many problems, I rather not, "give it a try." Between all the camping strats, to the rate you get specails... This mode is just something, I personally can't support.

In every game mode you can camp with a win and ride it to victory, most maps are explicitly designed for it and's the object of the game in Splat Zones. Rainmaker isn't special.

There are places where, if a Rainmaker dies, the Rainmaker is very difficult for the losing team to pick up. They are, however, places that a sensible team will avoid taking risks at and only really work in Solo Queue or against inexperienced teams. Cheesey rainmaker camping that relies on your opponents not understanding the simple way to avoid getting into that silly situation are not legit strategies

If a team is in the lead and has convincing control of the map towards the end of a game, they can of course use that advantage to play defensively and camp until they've stalled out the clock. Those kinds of playes are legit strategies because they are still going to work against people who understand what is happening.

 

[Hitzel]

These are stalling points for mostly all maps. You can go out of bounds and under the stage on both Walleye and Bluefin as well. Many of these spots are more effective than Saltspray. The obvious spot is not always the strongest.

They only work if it's the last 60 seconds, because if the other team just counter-camps and paints the rest of the map, the rainmaker will explode and respawn into the other team's hands.

90% of Rainmaker's camping issues are instantly resolves once people understand that mechanic.

 

[Agosta44]

They only work if it's the last 60 seconds, because if the other team just counter-camps and paints the rest of the map, the rainmaker will explode and respawn into the other team's hands.

90% of Rainmaker's camping issues are instantly resolves once people understand that mechanic.

It does not only work in the last 60 seconds, but okay. This thread seems to be very dismissive so I think I'll make this my last response.

 

[Kbot]

These are stalling points for mostly all maps. You can go out of bounds and under the stage on both Walleye and Bluefin as well. Many of these spots are more effective than Saltspray. The obvious spot is not always the strongest.

Regarding these stalling points, @Power and a few others tested out some of them and here's what they found: (qtd from IoS thread)

Well, from what we have tested...(This has nothing to do with Ink or Sink, but :p...Is there a better place to post this kind of stuff?)

Rainmaker

Walleye Warehouse:
can be pretty game breaking. (At the L shaped area with grates). If you can combo walls and rainmaker shots (or just leave the rainmaker unexploded) + wails then you can hold the area down pretty well at the opponents side. Working on counters for this, may be inkstrikes, wails... (Big Key... RM does not return to mid)

Port Mackerel:
Stalling at the enemy side alley (the one where you can access via the block) is not very ideal or game changing. Enemy spawn is right there, but maybe because we did not spam walls enough is why it did not work so well. Stalling at 1 minute mark at your own alley is easy, as long as your team can hold down with wall spam. (We stalled on the left side, with the block. Stalling on the right side may be safer as there is no block.

Flounder Heights:
The only area that may be abused are the long walls on the left and right side of the map. If you can hang there with the rainmaker, it is easy to build up a defense around that area. Other than that, business as usual it seems.

Saltspray Rig:
Stalling at North is 50-50 at times. A big push by the opponent can be done to take over North (Unless we were doing it wrong, probably...) Also when timer runs out, the RM eturns to mid, which could be a problem. (Interested in hearing others opinions on this)

Arowana Mall:
We could not successfully do the wall glitch consistently to stall at their base...(did not work on it enough also) Stalling at your own base is only worth the one minute mark, which could be achieved with walls. Seems like a plausible way to stall...

Camp Triggerfish...
Stalling at their big wall base may be helpful... but why do that if you can get the knockout. It may work, but we did not play on it as much.

Did Not Test:
Urchin, Bluefin, Moray, Dome, Skatepark (I know... we should have...) and Hammerhead Bridge :)P) But there will be other sessions.
Feel free to contact me if you want in.

Do not take these findings as FACT, they are simply a small sample size and there could be many possibilities to counter certain circumstance. I would love to hear others chime on with their thoughts.

Maybe that helps.

 

[Hitzel]

It does not only work in the last 60 seconds, but okay. This thread seems to be very dismissive so I think I'll make this my last response.

To meet eye to eye with me, you're gonna have to discuss how camping with the rainmaker before the last 60 seconds is beneficial if the other team leaves the Rainmaker alive and paints the map. No one has done that yet. You can only camp forever if the Rainmaker dies.