Pro or Con? - More/Better Gear-Ability Customization? (Sub and Main)

[Paragon-Yoshi]

Who says anything against new gear?
This argument is silly in my eyes.

You can have customization and new gear.

 

[magfive]

If the devs allow us to change out the main ability and subs for any ability type, what is the incentive to create more gear than what they've already given to us? Having customization would influence how much gear is created and I prefer to have more styles that give us all the possible ability combinations.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

Asthetics?
Cool looking gear is enough of an incentive to make more.

If functions would only matter, MGS wouldn't allow us to go half-naked or in a Tuxedo.
Methinks you underestimate the fun of simply looking cool or funny.

 

[magfive]

I'm advocating for more styles and gear, which would ultimately lead to more "cool and funny" looking outfits, not less. Gear for the sake of looks will get us more chef/squid girl outfits, but less of everything else because they won't need to develop it. Why create unique Rockenberg hats or Squidforce shoes when the players can just change the main/sub abilities to be whatever they want it to be.

This is not a monthly subscription based game and anything new (minus already announced weapons/maps) they put out for us at this point is icing on the cake. I'm really just hoping that by not having all the possible ability combos out there or a bomb range up brand of clothing that it will lead to the extra development and keep the game fresher longer.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

I still don't get this argument.
What exactly is your problem?

We can still get brand new gear, even with ability-customization in place.
It can both work hand-in-hand no problems,


First and foremost, clothing is always about asthetics.
At least that is how it generally works in video games.
You wear clothes, because you want to look cool.

So being forced to wear gear looking like garbage, just because it has a good ability, is an unnecessary inconvenience.
but just because the ability-lock would be gone, doesn't mean there can't be any more gear.
There is always something for everyone, one way or another.

 

[Dolphoshi]

I still don't get this argument.
What exactly is your problem?

We can still get brand new gear, even with ability-customization in place.
It can both work hand-in-hand no problems,


First and foremost, clothing is always about asthetics.
At least that is how it generally works in video games.
You wear clothes, because you want to look cool.

So being forced to wear gear looking like garbage, just because it has a good ability, is an unnecessary inconvenience.
but just because the ability-lock would be gone, doesn't mean there can't be any more gear.
There is always something for everyone, one way or another.

unfortunately nintendo is a company and is looking to make money which in a companies case means less time more profit
what mag is worried about is if we have the ability to customize the gear they won't release as much gear because there is no need because in most games clothes are for cosmedic use but not in this game, equipment is used to try give your self an edge and new clothes in a game like Splatoon is giving the player more options for their own ability set up and thus keep the player's interest longer, because mag want them to release a squidforce shoes it's most likey because he wants the 5x skill roll for what ever skill squidbrands have ( i don't know what it is), but if he can just switch the skills he has from his squidforce shirt to a pair of shoes there would be no need to release squidforce shoes because it costs time to make the squidforce and time means more money spent which means less of a profit and a company needs to keep making profits otherwise it's over. And you need to remember nintendo is making these games themselfs they don't have next to any third party support so they really need to be doing the bare minim (i'm amazed we are getting content at all)

so I see his concern if this were to happen in this game (or it's sequel) we would be able to wear what we want with the skills we want but we would most likely have less clothes to choose from if we didn't have the system because there would be no need to release new clothes.
(good gravy i said squidforce a lot)

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

Believe me, there are A LOT of people who don't give a damn about what abilities the clothes offer.
They just wear them to look good.
But most of the time, they get the short end of the stick, since the abilities of their favourite gear aren't helping them at all or are even hindering them.

And tbh, it still is a moot point.
Heck if Nintendo were to operate like this, they could've just made one piece of gear per Main Ability and kept it like this.
So that for each class (Head, Body and Feet) there would be one piece of gear for each Main Ability.
And it essentially would be just a "Select your Ability".

But they didn't keep it like that.
They created more and more gear, with Main Abilities that have been used before already.
So in a sense, they do care about asthetics. Otherwise they wouldn't have done this.


Abilities are not the selling point of clothes. Asthetics are as well.
So this little fear is really baseless.

 

[Dolphoshi]

not true there are other reasons mainly the sub abilitys certain brands have a higher chance of rolling things so they release more clothes with the same main ability and a different brand which most likey will mean different subs, i don't care about the subs enough to wear something I don't like but there are those who do, so I do think that being able to swap abilities on clothes would be great so that way people could get both the only thing that it would change is only the look of what your wearing that way they would still have to release new clothes for the main ability/ sub ability combos

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

The brand-system wouldn't change with single Sub rerolling.
But that doesn't prevent proper Main Ability changing from working, hm?

I really don't get where you are pulling all these "problems" out from.
Everything you said can perfectly work together, with Ability changing, if done properly.

 

[Dolphoshi]

I won't want single slot changes that would defeat the whole rolling system, it is meant to be irritating because you can't easily get what you want out of the gear thus it's a way to balance the system (yes i know there is a way to cheat the system but I don't know it nor will I use it because it is cheating) because you can't easily get 3 without putting in about 20 super sea snails (or it's money equivalent) it makes to so new comers have a chance to enjoy the game without having to deal with the perfect set level 50 player and it also makes it so the casual player (like me because I suck) able to fight those players because very few will have the 3 sub gear and even fewer have that on all three gear pieces, but if you do single rolls it will defeat the point of brands being you can just re-roll single abilities one at a time until you get what you want (it could be done) as well me it easy to get so ridiculous sub set ups ( like if someone went crazy with defense up or run speed/swim speed) because no matter how expensive you make it the high level pro players can always grind to get to that point. I think the system for rolling is good as it is (because i would rather have a variety two slot gear then one three slot gear) but it would be nice to put a "skin" on the equipment so it looks like something you would like to wear instead of having to wear something you hate (looking at you) that way it really can't unbalence the system because it's only for looks but I can see why you would want a single sub re-roll but it would make it harder for new people to climb the ranks (because I came to this game because it was a unique twist on the first person shooter) because they would get frustrated and people play worse when they get irritated

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

I will just quote this.
The strongest pro-post, that everyone ignores.

On the topic of Main Ability Transfer

This doesn't sound bad, actually. As for Cuttlegear you could just buy them from Judd (since he seems to mysteriously find these things) after destroying them, for a price (higher than what you'd see in the shops).

The "sticker" idea is pretty good, too.

On the topic of Sub Ability Rolling

There is another thing I would like to propose instead of single sub rolling that works generally the way you'd like it to.
Slot-locking. This is a feature I know from an MMO where you can reroll your equipment for bonuses and pay an increasing amount of money the more slots you roll. However, to keep rolling for, say, three slots, you must pick the three slots option so that you don't obliterate your other slot(s) in favour of rolling just the one. How did they do this? By locking the slots that had bonuses they desired.

In summary, instead of limiting rolling to a single slot, have Spyke roll all slots and maybe ask a higher fee for preserving selected slots to keep rolling for the one ability you're still missing. The ideal would be that we could just buy the exact slot we want, because honestly, that's exactly what we're doing - only we're getting ripped off at present.

General

I find that the overall way ability rolling works is a bit ridiculous considering there is no trade market (my opinion can be found in this thread) so the system doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I like using gear I find aesthetically pleasing so personally I can get behind this.


Also, I would actually argue that it is wrong. Again, referring to the link up above. It's a really clumsy system that frankly doesn't work for this game. The fact that so many savescum is evidence of that.

 

[Dolphoshi]

i read that but the problem is money isn't a problem for high end player (heck i have over 1500000 coins and 11 snails) and the new player (mostly young because nintendo) has no money and can't use this feature until they get money but they have to deal with the perfect gear sets which when put in a game where i'm trying to learn but I can't kill to learn can and will turn people off and they may not pick up the game again. the locking system does prevent them from the non brand skill set ups but the way the system is set up now it wouldn't take many re-rolls you just have to lock one of the abilities because I almost always get two of the brand skills every time I re-roll remember they have built the clothing system to benefit new players and casual players but i do agree with changing main abilities but where is this sticker idea he talked about?

 

[Inky Corruption]

@Dolphoshi

If anything, players should buy "stickers" from a specifc to replace the current ability that the gear already has. That would seem to be a simpler way and it would fit in with this Inkopilis theme of having 3 clothing shops with different gear every day just now with "stickers" at expensive prices. There you go you already made me think of a suggestion xD

Also, I think you're the first to defend the slot-rolling system. The point isn't whether or not "pros" can grind for it, it's the fact that the system is designed to work like an MMO would, with slightly more favourable odds for brand native abilities. You think it's reasonable to expect even the most dedicated Splatoon player to invest an absurd amount of time into rolling equipment? I inquire you to consider this:

Spoiler: Yeah, I have a huge problem with this system and I won't stop ranting about it.

On average, it costs 1,080,000 gold to roll native triple slots (1 in 36 chance (0.0278%)), which equals 167 Knockout games in S+ rank (6,500 gold). Assuming you win every match in 3 minutes on average, factoring in the lobby waiting times it'll take you about 14 hours of grinding to save up that kind of money.

But, imagine you desperately need a particular set of sub slots, but there are no native brands that support your particular set up? If you're lucky, there is a neutral brand piece with the main ability you want, like Cuttlegear, amiibo, or the various one-shot costumes like Famitsu, etc. Your odds decreased to 1 in 2197 (0.000455%). Now you're suddenly spending 65,910,000 gold on average. That's 10,140 Knockouts in S+ rank and, given the same unrealistic conditions above, about 845 hours of non-stop grinding. Or a month and five days.

Now, imagine the worst case scenario, neither of these conditions apply. You're stuck rolling for unnatural sub slots. You're stuck with a 1 in 4492 chance. (0.000223%) Your average estimated gold requirement went up from 65.9M to a whopping 134,760,000 gold. 20,733 Knockouts. 1728 hours, or two months and 12 days. Your odds didn't just get bad, they got ridiculous. You could be playing this game way into the next generation of consoles with these odds.

Roll chances sourced from this guide made by @Hitzel that was first posted in this thread.
Edited to use prize money from S+ rather than S; how would you not rank up with a 100% win rate?

Back on topic:

I see the concern with Nintendo wanting to refrain from releasing new gear if we could simply switch main slots (or re-brand gear) around to basically always end up with the ideal loadout for both stats and looks. On one end, it almost feels like it would be below Nintendo to operate like that, but on the other, the argument makes sense. A nice compromise would be the slot-locking mechanic that I mentioned earlier in this thread, which would make slot-rolling far more reasonable whilst still keeping it pricey. The new price-tag may still discourage enough people that Nintendo would feel incentivised to keep releasing new gear, as there are still plenty of combinations to be had.

Besides, the idea behind this entire topic is to allow us to wear what we feel most appealing and whilst releasing new gear could give way for new, fresh looks, some people would still be stuck with gear combinations that don't suit their taste and then we'd be back here again.

 

[Dolphoshi]

@Dolphoshi


Also, I think you're the first to defend the slot-rolling system. The point isn't whether or not "pros" can grind for it, it's the fact that the system is designed to work like an MMO would, with slightly more favourable odds for brand native abilities. You think it's reasonable to expect even the most dedicated Splatoon player to invest an absurd amount of time into rolling equipment? I inquire you to consider this:

Spoiler: Yeah, I have a huge problem with this system and I won't stop ranting about it.

On average, it costs 1,080,000 gold to roll native triple slots (1 in 36 chance (0.0278%)), which equals 197 Knockout games in S rank (5,500 gold). Assuming you win every match in 3 minutes on average, factoring in the lobby waiting times it'll take you about 16 and a half hours of grinding to save up that kind of money.

But, imagine you desperately need a particular set of sub slots, but there are no native brands that support your particular set up? If you're lucky, there is a neutral brand piece with the main ability you want, like Cuttlegear, amiibo, or the various one-shot costumes like Famitsu, etc. Your odds decreased to 1 in 2197 (0.000455%). Now you're suddenly spending 65,910,000 gold on average. That's 11,984 Knockouts in S rank and, given the same unrealistic conditions above, about 999 hours of non-stop grinding. Or a month and twelve days.

Now, imagine the worst case scenario, neither of these conditions apply. You're stuck rolling for unnatural sub slots. You're stuck with a 1 in 4492 chance. (0.000223%) Your average estimated gold requirement went up from 65.9M to a whopping 134,760,000 gold. 24,502 Knockouts. 2042 hours, or two months and 25 days. Your odds didn't just get bad, they got ridiculous. You could be playing this game way into the next generation of consoles with these odds.

Roll chances sourced from this guide made by @Hitzel that was first posted in this thread.

Back on topic:

I see the concern with Nintendo wanting to refrain from releasing new gear if we could simply switch main slots (or re-brand gear) around to basically always end up with the ideal loadout for both stats and looks. On one end, it almost feels like it would be below Nintendo to operate like that, but on the other, the argument makes sense. A nice compromise would be the slot-locking mechanic that I mentioned earlier in this thread, which would make slot-rolling far more reasonable whilst still keeping it pricey. The new price-tag may still discourage enough people that Nintendo would feel incentivised to keep releasing new gear, as there are still plenty of combinations to be had.

Besides, the idea behind this entire topic is to allow us to wear what we feel most appealing and whilst releasing new gear could give way for new, fresh looks, some people would still be stuck with gear combinations that don't suit their taste and then we'd be back here again.

The thing is I think a player shouldn't be relaying on their gear a new player can because he's learning, this making it so the learner and the master have the same level of gear the only difference is their skill and that is how it should be it's not the lack of gear in the way it's your skill level thats in the way and the only way you can get better is to better your skill and besides the one sub skill slot only gives you around 7% (not sure if this is the number but i know it's single digits) and if you need that one percent you should be trying new things to try to get better not rerolling in hopes of getting the three slots and hoping it changes everything.

As for the main ability reroll the sticker idea is cool because i do want to wear things for looks not skill, so i'm all for switching main abilities that way we can stay looking fresh.

 

[Inky Corruption]

There is always going to be a difference between the casuals and the hardcore, whether it's the difference in skill or the equipment they use. Going with that logic, we should just do away with all abilities and make it a "true" game of skill, with no abilities to factor in.

This, however, is not the reality we live in, and the use of abilities actually encourage more diverse levels of play that may not otherwise have existed. In that sense, I find your argument rather weak as just about any game that involves difference in programmed abilities share this dilemma, so to speak. Additionally, this game relies less on hard stat values and more on physical and psychological skill sets. A new player with a competitive gear loadout is still going to have to fight for supremacy just like another new player without their amazing meta-game equipment.

That is never going to change within this game, unlike in an RPG where better equipment actually does mean an equally experienced player has a clear advantage simply because of their increased stats. But again, that is not the type of game Splatoon is, hence, I do not agree with your argument.

 

[Dolphoshi]

There is always going to be a difference between the casuals and the hardcore, whether it's the difference in skill or the equipment they use. Going with that logic, we should just do away with all abilities and make it a "true" game of skill, with no abilities to factor in.

This, however, is not the reality we live in, and the use of abilities actually encourage more diverse levels of play that may not otherwise have existed. In that sense, I find your argument rather weak as just about any game that involves difference in programmed abilities share this dilemma, so to speak. Additionally, this game relies less on hard stat values and more on physical and psychological skill sets. A new player with a competitive gear loadout is still going to have to fight for supremacy just like another new player without their amazing meta-game equipment.

That is never going to change within this game, unlike in an RPG where better equipment actually does mean an equally experienced player has a clear advantage simply because of their increased stats. But again, that is not the type of game Splatoon is, hence, I do not agree with your argument.

that fine we can agree to disagree but it makes so the new player have access to the same stuff we do because skills do matter but it will be how you use them and almost everyone will have similar equipment, I do agree with the diverse play styles but I feel like if you MUST have to have that third skill you aren't adapting besides you can just have two subs of one and your third sub another thing you like then mirror it with another piece of equipment and you have your three (ish) slot but for me 7% of something I can live without plus if someone has a three gear piece they either got lucky or they fought to get it showing an experienced player. But as for me I can work around the one missing omniimportant slot which will allow me to have more optain then the player who wanted three triple slots

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

Still the odds of actually getting the desired Sub-Abilities, are impossibly low.
It's on par with getting the infamous "Pink Tail" in "Final Fantasy IV".

And besides, there is savescumming.
So people with proper patience can actually sit it out with their "Makeshift Infinite Super Sea Snails" and wait for a useful combination to pop up.

Whether or not the Rerolling system is a good concept, is up to debate.
But the odds shouldn't be this impossible.

And to be perfectly honest, I dislike the brand-system.
Since it splits the whole thing up even more, probably forcing people who want abilites to further abandon the gear that asthetically speaks most for them.

I would be fine if brands were just there and do nothing, other than making the world feel more real.
What's the problem with that?
GTA did the same thing, with adding various clothing-brands or car-manufacturers, that are technically useless, as they do nothing.
They have only been made to add layers of depth for the world. And it worked perfectly.
But that is how I see it.


The rerolling-system isn't necessarily a bad thing.
But odds that low are simply unacceptable.

Single Rerolling or Slot Locking would be godsent here.

And in case you haven't been reading the first post: The cost would be different!
Aka, you would have to pay more, for those additional services.
I figured that would be a given, but anyways.


And all you said speaks nothing against changing Main Abilities.


In the end, people like me just want to also have a taste of the better abilities, but without being forced to wear clothes, that, bluntly said, LOOK LIKE GARBAGE!
Of course, we would have to go the extra mile and give up more Snails or Cash.
But it is a cost I am willng to pay.

And I say it right now: "The whole Ability-lock for each and every piece of clothing in the game is WRONG IN MY EYES!"
There, I said it!

Personally, I would have given each piece of clothing SLOTS, that you could freely equip abilities to.
Making clothes first and foremost asthetics only, but still having a slightly deeper role to play.

There could've been a Sticker-shop, serving essentially as Ability-Shop.
Allowing you to buy abilities and equip them to gear.

And personally I would've had nothing against Asthetics-only gear.
So that Head, Body and Foot wear serve as Ability-holders.
But other type of gear, such as bracelets, watches or gloves are pure asthetics.

But oh well....
There is nothing wrong wiht adding gear, even if it is only asthetics in the end.
Rockstar games had gone the same lengths with the GTA 5, if I am not mistaken.


And I think you people underestimate how far personal taste goes.
Sure there are monotone people, who wear the same thing all the time.
And for them, there would be no further point to get any Snails.

But there are other types of people, who maybe change up things and wear different clothes from time to time.
So for them, it would be more costs and more Snail-grinding to cover all those clothes.


And saying everyone would only wear Squid Girl costumes with free ability customization, frankly is nonsense as well.
There would always be a place for all the other gear.
There is always something for everyone.
Not everyone likes the Squid Girl costume.
I know I don't. I rather stick with my Octoling make up.

 

[sammich]

the game presents fashion as an important aspect but then immediately urges you to choose based on something invisible.

even if clothes and abilities weren't set, there'd still be popular/trend clothes and popular/trend abilities, so i don't see why they decided to make us choose when there is literally 0 cons about having them separate.

with the weapons having set subs i can see their logic, but the clothes i don't. they can even keep the branding mechanic and just have main be affected by branding as well (or otherwise controlled through other means).

i doubt they'll change it for this game but if they make a sequel i hope they remove the pointless lock.

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as for me, i generally go mid-ways with fashion and skill. i don't wear boring **** and i avoid skills irrelevant to my weapon... it sounds like a good trade off on paper, but it's actually really frustrating that most of the stuff i want to wear has a main ability that doesn't really affect my weapon (and prevents me from having a key ability that heavily boosts my weapon).

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also don't like the re-rolling system. it's not unbearable, but with such poor odds it's basically just a way to throw away money once you've bought all the stuff in the shop. if you could choose to re-roll a single ability rather than all three (for the same price), it would still force people to save up a LOT but with the promise of actual results.

sub abilities, imo, aren't strong enough in general to warrant such a mean system for getting what you want.