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PSA to Tournament Organizers: Halo-Style Map Rotations, an Alternative to Smash-Style Picks & Bans

Chhipz

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That's actually something I think we should avoid. If things work, keep them, and if things are so dreadfully horrible for tournaments that we can't use them, ditch them. Picking an arbitrary number of gametypes and sticking to it is one of the biggest problems with MLG Halo. So many maps and gametypes were rejected because there wasn't enough room in that imaginary number holding everything back.
The number wouldn't have to remain permanent, it can fluctuate as the meta progresses since this game is constantly being updated.

I don't believe it held back Halo at all, considering the 11 gametypes were quite varied and competitive. There will always be good maps/ gametypes out there, but that doesn't mean all of them need to be adopted. If they were, it would be difficult to prepare for all of them. Being selective deepens our understanding of what makes something more competitive and balanced by comparing maps and gametypes with one another.
 

SquiliamTentacles

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The number wouldn't have to remain permanent, it can fluctuate as the meta progresses since this game is constantly being updated.

I don't believe it held back Halo at all, considering the 11 gametypes were quite varied and competitive. There will always be good maps/ gametypes out there, but that doesn't mean all of them need to be adopted. If they were, it would be difficult to prepare for all of them. Being selective deepens our understanding of what makes something more competitive and balanced by comparing maps and gametypes with one another.
I honestly think it would be better if tournaments were uniform to a single gamemode. Therefore, teams only need to practice one mode, allowing them to prepare better. Of course, tourneys should not all be the same mode. Having all 4 modes in separate tournaments would give more variety to the spectators.
 

Knightmare82

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Amazing idea! @Hitzel I finally understand what @KTKres was trying to say in our skype chat. I look forward to seeing this used in tournaments. It could help a lot of teams out knowing who to sub in & not take 30 mins to an hour to figure out counterpicks and selections.
 

UnnecessaryTodd

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Could someone quickly brief me on what game modes aren't good on what maps? From my experience things like this have always come down to weapon type rather than game mode type being advantageous or not in specific maps and modes. If people know exactly which map and mode they are going to compete in doesn't that alleviate the problem?

I don't know much about the tournament scene but while I've personally found certain maps on certain modes to be less fun/interesting, that is mostly because of the weapon I use not suiting it and not the map itself having problems.

I'm not a fan of banning anything in competitive play unless it impacts on skill in a severe way such as hazards in Smash. But in Splatoon, everything is equal opportunity on every map so why should anything be banned?
 

Poyo

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Could someone quickly brief me on what game modes aren't good on what maps? [...] I'm not a fan of banning anything in competitive play unless it impacts on skill in a severe way such as hazards in Smash. But in Splatoon, everything is equal opportunity on every map so why should anything be banned?
Certain maps tend to heavily favour a team based on who leads first. Of the maps currently in, I don't think any of them are bad enough to warrant a ban yet. In Tower Control, for example, Walleye Warehouse is pretty imbalanced because the team who leads first can easily get rid of anyone who approaches due to a lack of approach options. It's way harder to get the tower back.
 

Kbot

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Could someone quickly brief me on what game modes aren't good on what maps? From my experience things like this have always come down to weapon type rather than game mode type being advantageous or not in specific maps and modes. If people know exactly which map and mode they are going to compete in doesn't that alleviate the problem?

I don't know much about the tournament scene but while I've personally found certain maps on certain modes to be less fun/interesting, that is mostly because of the weapon I use not suiting it and not the map itself having problems.

I'm not a fan of banning anything in competitive play unless it impacts on skill in a severe way such as hazards in Smash. But in Splatoon, everything is equal opportunity on every map so why should anything be banned?
Other maps include Salt RM and Blackbelly RM, due to stalling and the distance not being far enough from mid to goal, respectively. People are upset about this, but the banhammer won't drop yet. Hopefully. I'd rather not get into that argument here lol.
 

Hitzel

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Other maps include Salt RM and Blackbelly RM, due to stalling and the distance not being far enough from mid to goal, respectively. People are upset about this, but the banhammer won't drop yet. Hopefully. I'd rather not get into that argument here lol.
Yeah part of my goal is to get tournaments using the Halo system to get EVERYTHING being played in tournaments. "Trimming the fat" by getting rid of problem map+gamemode combos is a future endeavor, if it ends up needing to happen.
 

TheRapture

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Considering how clunky and unnecessary a counterpicking system is for Splatoon, I like this movement.

I'd really like to get closer to hammering down a community-accepted list of gametype/map combinations so TOs know which to use when determining combinations for each round for upcoming tournaments.
 

Aweshucks

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That's cool to hear, let me know if you need anything better explained for you.
Ok, let me make sure I've got everything right before I implement it in a tournament.

For each round, the TO chooses a number of gametypes (1 for each game, i.e. 5 for a Bo5 set). The teams then play these gametypes in the order they are presented. Then for the next round an entirely different set of gametypes are chosen, and the teams once again play them in the order they are presented. The gametypes change for each round through the entire tournament. If not all games in a set are played, not all gametypes are played (i.e. every Bo5 set is guaranteed to play the first 3 gametypes, but only some will use the other 2).

Am I right in everything there? Did I miss anything? Would you suggest manually choosing gametypes or just randomizing it?
 

Fightersword

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This frankly seems like a better setup for a splatoon tournament than smash style. The reason I believe this is because the main reasons for allowing players to ban/pick stages in smash do not translate over almost at all to splatoon. In smash stage selection can actually make a big difference in matchup and how every character will be played, while in splatoon a different map will tend to somewhat affect which weapons are more viable than others, but there aren't any core differences in character, and teams are made up of players and have the ability to sub people in in case someone does not have the skills to effectively enough use a good setup for a particular map or game mode.

To put it in better terms, for stages legal for tournament play, map selection should reward players who are most prepared for fighting on different maps, or those who had the most understanding of other maps. Smash's map system does this for them: players are rewarded for knowing which maps will affect their matchups and how, and also knowing how to think up a skilled counterpick and ban the stages that disadvantage them most, while trying to get into the stages that benefit them. it literally encourages knowing more maps and more map matchups to make good tactical decisions and to not be destroyed on a map that your character will do worse on. In splatoon this very same system has the exact opposite effect: players rely on being able to strike out the maps they don't want to learn or are not prepared to play on, while with Halo style map choice, by forcing them to play on a wide variety of maps and game modes, forces them to become knowledgeable on all the different maps, lest they get thrown on one they don't understand. It also does this without unbalancing the game, as splatoon's balance is not nearly as heavily affected by map choice as Smash's can be. In both situations the more prepared and knowledgeable player/team is rewarded, but because the two games are extremely different, the setup for inspiring that situation is completely different.

SCL plans on using halo map style in its future tournaments. We believe it is the better choice, and we think said future tournament results will confirm this. But if we are wrong, which I doubt, then we will find another solution.
 
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Hitzel

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Ok, let me make sure I've got everything right before I implement it in a tournament.

For each round, the TO chooses a number of gametypes (1 for each game, i.e. 5 for a Bo5 set). The teams then play these gametypes in the order they are presented. Then for the next round an entirely different set of gametypes are chosen, and the teams once again play them in the order they are presented. The gametypes change for each round through the entire tournament. If not all games in a set are played, not all gametypes are played (i.e. every Bo5 set is guaranteed to play the first 3 gametypes, but only some will use the other 2).

Am I right in everything there? Did I miss anything? Would you suggest manually choosing gametypes or just randomizing it?
Hey sorry for the late reply, I kept having to do things while trying to type this lol.

You've pretty much got it.

I feel that the best way to go about it is letting RNG help you but hand-picking a few things to avoid troll RNG. I'll do a quick breakdown of how I would do it:

Game Modes being used equally every round is important, so I would hand pick an order for Game Modes first. I've been thinking about it, and I feel like the following pattern is the best:

ABCAB

Where for round 1, we could use:
A = Tower
B = Zones
C = Rain

For round 2, we could use:
A = Zones
B = Rain
C = Tower

...etc, cycling the Game Modes every round. Bo7's could go ABCABCA.

As for maps, I would start by letting RNG decide, but then tweaking the results to avoid troll RNG.

Instead of simply using raw RNG to pick each map as you go, I would instead start with the 11 maps in a "pool" randomly pick them one at a time and add them to the "schedule" until there are none left in the "pool", and keep repeating that with fresh "pools." This means that you use all 11 maps in random order, than all 11 maps in another random order, etc, and all maps get equal representation. Let me know if you need that explained a little better.

At this point we know what the universally accepted maps are that are getting picked, and the universally disliked maps that are getting banned. We want to make sure that every round has representation from the popular stuff and there there aren't any rounds where only unpopular maps get used, so you can shift the results around.

I also don't think that the community would mind if some popular maps sometimes showed up two rounds in a row instead of having to wait for a new "pool." That could be more crowd-pleasing, but it's not necessary.

You also want to look from round to round and make sure that certain maps aren't randomly being assigned to only one gametype. For example, let's say that Triggerfish randomly got assigned to Zones every single time, it's best to switch some of them with Towers and Rainmaker.

Maps showing up in the first 3 games get a bit more exposure than games 4 and 5, so it's important to balance that too.

---

Maybe that was a bit complicated of an answer, but pretty much you choose a pattern for Game Modes that changes every round, then randomly go through all the maps in the game repeatedly, tweaking the order to fix any problems as you go. You seem like a smart guy so I'm sure you'll notice any problems and make good decisions to fix them.
 

Aweshucks

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Well folks, we've done it. Our next SCL tournament, scheduled for Sunday, September 20th, will be using halo-style map rotations. We are really excited about this, as we think that it has the potential to be the default for future competitive Splatoon. We are very much looking forward to seeing how this tournament pans out and are very hopeful that it will be a success.

This is the map/mode list we are using:
Round 1-
TC- Arrowana
RM- Bluefin
SZ- Kelp Dome
SZ- Mackerel
TC- Triggerfish

Round 2-
SZ- Walleye
TC- Moray
TC- Mackerel
SZ- Saltspray
RM- Urchin

Round 3-
RM- Triggerfish
SZ- Blackbelly
TC- Walleye
SZ- Flounder
TC- Kelp Dome

Semifinals-
TC- Blackbelly
SZ- Urchin
RM- Triggerfish
SZ- Arrowana
TC- Kelp Dome
RM- Mackerel
TC- Flounder

Finals and Bronze match-
SZ- Walleye
SZ- Blackbelly
TC- Kelp Dome
TC- Arrowana
SZ- Saltspray
RM- Mackerel
TC- Triggerfish

It was hand-picked, but I did my best to make sure each map had representation. And it is also able to be changed if necessary

In the future, assuming this goes well, we will likely do just as @Hitzel suggested with semi-random picking.

I encourage every team that is available on the 20th to sign up for the tournament.

http://squidboards.com/threads/scl-...weekly-tournament-sunday-september-20th.7656/
 

Hitzel

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Well folks, we've done it. Our next SCL tournament, scheduled for Sunday, September 20th, will be using halo-style map rotations. We are really excited about this, as we think that it has the potential to be the default for future competitive Splatoon. We are very much looking forward to seeing how this tournament pans out and are very hopeful that it will be a success.

This is the map/mode list we are using:
Round 1-
TC- Arrowana
RM- Bluefin
SZ- Kelp Dome
SZ- Mackerel
TC- Triggerfish

Round 2-
SZ- Walleye
TC- Moray
TC- Mackerel
SZ- Saltspray
RM- Urchin

Round 3-
RM- Triggerfish
SZ- Blackbelly
TC- Walleye
SZ- Flounder
TC- Kelp Dome

Semifinals-
TC- Blackbelly
SZ- Urchin
RM- Triggerfish
SZ- Arrowana
TC- Kelp Dome
RM- Mackerel
TC- Flounder

Finals and Bronze match-
SZ- Walleye
SZ- Blackbelly
TC- Kelp Dome
TC- Arrowana
SZ- Saltspray
RM- Mackerel
TC- Triggerfish

It was hand-picked, but I did my best to make sure each map had representation. And it is also able to be changed if necessary

In the future, assuming this goes well, we will likely do just as @Hitzel suggested with semi-random picking.

I encourage every team that is available on the 20th to sign up for the tournament.

http://squidboards.com/threads/scl-...weekly-tournament-sunday-september-20th.7656/
This is looking really awesome, and I feel that having a total of 1 RM, 2 SZ, 2 TC per round will probably be well-accepted by the community. Well done.

One thing I do want to point out about most tournament rulesets; If neither team scores any points on something like, say Mackerel Splat Zones, the game uses RNG to determine a winner. IMO, in these rare cases, the game should be replayed instead of letting RNG decide a winner.

You could also simply give both teams a win a'la Street Fighter if a second tie happens. Something to think about.
 

MissingNumbers

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One thing I do want to point out about most tournament rulesets; If neither team scores any points on something like, say Mackerel Splat Zones, the game uses RNG to determine a winner.
Correction: it defaults to the Alpha team in terms of a victory. We've done multiple tests in IU and it has consistently been team Alpha.
 

Fightersword

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Splatoon really doesn't like giving ties. I kind of doubt one will happen, but if it does happen like once then we'll just make them replay that game. If it starts happening over and over we'll probably step in and do something about it just to make sure the tournament doesn't stall, but I really doubt that will happen.
 

Kosaki

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This is probably the best solution to run a short tourney.
Howerer, I don't think it's the best option when it comes to fairness and gameplay showcasing.

I still believe a strike/ban system is a legit option in Splatoon considering how its maps work and the state of the current meta (v2.1.0), as long as you are willing to spend some time discussing between games.
For example, there are maps that can be considered counterpicks against E-liter, 96, Dynamo, Blaster or whatever else. Just as there are maps that tends to favor one weapon or another, or specific playstyles.

This would ensure that both teams play as optimal as they can in a Best of 7 set (2 locked bans per team with the current map pool of 12, this leaves us with virtually 8 maps that can be played, taking modified DSR into account, no mode banning), on maps that they would both agree on playing on.
I think mode banning is unhealthy (considering Turf War is not in the mode pool) and limits the losing team choice for the next Gametype far too much, and it basically lets a team to sleep on a specific mode, even it's just for one or two games in a given set.

With modified DSR applied (the losing team cannot pick a map it has already won on), said lack of variety will not be an issue.
Although you probably won't see much maps like Port Mackerel or Bluefin Depot, and that's because 96 gal Deco's on these maps are ridiculously good and are super efficient with minimal effort, this is an issue that comes from the game and its balance, not players preferences. You can probably say the same about maps like Arowana Mall or Moray Towers for charger weapons for example.

As for the mode and map striking part for the first game of the set. I think doing a coin toss via Cointossr to decide who strike both modes and maps first is the best option.
Modes are striked first (1-1 striking, only ranked modes), maps are striked right after (1-2-1 striking among the 5 first maps of the game).
The team that lost the coin toss will have the hand of the first mode that will be played, while the winner of the coin toss will decide which map will be played in the end of the striking process. I believe this is fair enough.
Only the 5 first maps of the game are considered for the striking, the number of maps is then uneven and 5 maps is short enough to make the striking process quick or at least it won't take too long.
And imo, Urchin Underpass is currently the most neutral map of the game, it doesn't favor or unfavor any weapon in particular, which can make it a good starting map. Saltspray Rig and Walleye Warehouse would come right after as the most neutral maps, but Urchin still prevails. Arowana and Skatepark can still get picked if both teams play fancy. But still, that's just my personal opinion.

Halo-style forces specific Gametypes to be played. The main issue is that it's still RNG.
One team might like most of the Gametypes while the other won't.
Or worse, both teams don't like the big part of the Gametypes.
I want to make clear that this is not about lack of metagame knowledge but only about preferences in playstyle.
This can affect the mindsets of one team or both teams, and therefore performance.
Certain Gametypes might force players to play weapons they don't want to play, because they have to stay competitive (remember the likes of Mackerel and Bluefin...). This is how Splatoon is, some maps require a specific playstyle and can be really stupid to play, and I think this can (and I insist on the "can") be bad showcasing of what the game can offer compared to a match where both teams can express themselves the best they can via Smash-style.
Maybe this will be different after v2.2.0, and some maps will be more "interesting" to play as weapons will get buffed/nerfed, we don't know yet.
Of course, most Gametypes are not affected by what I just stated. But RNG being what it is...
Maybe I'm the only one that thinks that way about certain maps, I don't really know if people agree on that certain Gametypes can be ridiculously dumb and has to be avoided if possible.
A veto system can probably do some damage control in Halo-style.
If some maps are highly underused in Smash-style, that's probably for a good reason, really. And I think it's safer to let players ban the maps on their own rather making a TO move on that aspect.

And so, I think that Smash-style :
- is fairer (in Bo7 at least in the current meta), as both teams will decide and agree on what Gametypes will be played and not played. Striking system ensures a neutral enough first game.
- can show as much variety as Halo style with modified DSR applied.
- is more inclined to show the best of both teams
- prevents efficiently stale gameplay on Gametypes that have an overcentrilized meta. (typically Port Mackerell with double or triple 96 Deco, which IS a viable strat', as an example) And therefore, I believe it can be healthier than Halo-style depending on the mood of RNGesus.

Main weaknesses of Smash-style (mode/maps striking, 2 map bans in Bo7, no mode bans, modified DSR) :
- Can take a lot of time and be difficult to explain to newcomers, impractical for short tournaments
- Some Gametypes will rarely be played (but it would probably be deserved anyway).
- Can be even more annoying to manage in short sets (Bo3 or Bo5), and as the map pool will grow over time, it'll get critical.

Let's just hope that 2.2.0 and next updates make Halo-style the best possible option for Splatoon tournaments.
I do believe that Smash-style is the best for friendlies or long tournaments.
 

TheRapture

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Halo-style forces specific Gametypes to be played. The main issue is that it's still RNG.
One team might like most of the Gametypes while the other won't.
Or worse, both teams don't like the big part of the Gametypes.
That's life.

I still have yet to see any reasoning for implementing a counterpick system in which its positives outweigh its negatives and logistical issues.
 

Kosaki

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That's life.
And it can favor one team or another. And I'm not really fond of that aspect.

Plus yeah, logistics is what kill Smash-style for short tournaments, and I'm okay with using Halo-style for that matter, I just don't see how a week-end long tourney can be run smoothly with another format.
I'm just saying we should rather use Smash-style if it's possible and that Halo-style might not be optimal performance-wise.

I mean, I would see no real benefits in using Halo style over Smash style for a month long tournament that would be all Bo5/Bo7. Except for teams that may be too lazy to discuss strikes and bans. Considering the existing imbalance between weapons on each map/mode, this is one good way to deal with it.
 

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