Squad Balance

[AEM]

I normally play the underused stuff because I think I'm funny like that.

 

[MoonMonkey]

I don't think it's gonna be the weapons the determine balance but the stat buffs that go along with them.
But we are gonna have to see before we start talking about balance.

 

[Lyn]

Personally I don't care about balance. I'll probably main sniper or the most OP weapon anyway.

That doesn't sound very fun, to be honest.

 

[Aerodrome]

That doesn't sound very fun, to be honest.

Maybe not for you! But it's definitely fun for me!

 

[Citanul]

I too have been theorycrafting, but I'd just like to add that ideal squad compositions will likely vary from map to map. An open layout with long sightlines would be great for a long range sniper (ex: Salt Spray Rig), but something with more corridors/flanks and up close action could be hard for a sniper (ex: Walleye Warehouse, particularly in ranked). Vary your squad up accordingly.

I actually wonder now if you'll be able to see what map you'll be playing on before selecting your loadout. Does anyone know? I'd hate to get stuck with a loadout that's suboptimal due to not having enough information before a game.

 

[Yaezakura]

I actually wonder now if you'll be able to see what map you'll be playing on before selecting your loadout. Does anyone know? I'd hate to get stuck with a loadout that's suboptimal due to not having enough information before a game.

Thus my suggestion of, if you have a regular team of 4, plan around a balanced team of sniper/melee/2 generalists. I kind of doubt you'll be able to switch your loadouts once you enter the queue and see your map and such, thus making a composition that's as flexible as possible is ultimately optimal... perhaps not for a specific map, but for having the greatest range of options open to you.

 

[Citanul]

Thus my suggestion of, if you have a regular team of 4, plan around a balanced team of sniper/melee/2 generalists. I kind of doubt you'll be able to switch your loadouts once you enter the queue and see your map and such, thus making a composition that's as flexible as possible is ultimately optimal... perhaps not for a specific map, but for having the greatest range of options open to you.

Yeah, I think your setup is definitely the way to go if you can't see the map and change your loadout. Or at least, it's the one I'll recommend to my friends to start. It's way less interesting to me if we can't tailor our squads to the map, though, for sure.

 

[Flying_Tortoise]

Yeah, I think your setup is definitely the way to go if you can't see the map and change your loadout. Or at least, it's the one I'll recommend to my friends to start. It's way less interesting to me if we can't tailor our squads to the map, though, for sure.

I think if anything the competitive community would have us the teams do stage bans, pick the map, and then everyone picks their weapon sets. So even if you can't in the game, it would be too good for us as a community not to do it (last resort we could have the a paper of all the maps and ppl do stage bans with that paper).

edit: Back to topic. But you are right the balance of the squads will be determined by what the map is

 

[jp4464]

As many people have pointed out, ideal team compositions depend on the map chosen.
That said, I believe that certain weapons possess the same mechanic and playstyle overall regardless of the map.

While I won't copy and paste my thoughts on team comp directly from another thread, I will say that a big factor regarding the whole "you can't change weapons mid-match" is adaptability. Similar to most MOBAs (LoL, DOTA, Smite), the character you pick for a match is the one you're stuck with until completion. This means that you'll have to make the most out of your character's strengths in order for the entire team to be successful. Likewise, teams in Splatoon will need to effectively utilize their weapon sets to achieve any kind of strategy during a game.

I go into further detail on Team Composition here: http://squidboards.com/threads/team-makeup-meta.173/#post-3861

 

[Xeiros]

Why restrict yourselves to roles? Assuming the game actually allows it, you'll be able to alter your setups between matches. There's no need to restrict yourself to select weapon sets or clothing articles. You and your three teammates can easily switch between a wide variety of builds from match to match. There more diverse your skill is with the various options, the harder your opponents will have to work to keep up. Don't pigeonhole yourselves for no good reason.

 

[Yaezakura]

Why restrict yourselves to roles? Assuming the game actually allows it, you'll be able to alter your setups between matches. There's no need to restrict yourself to select weapon sets or clothing articles. You and your three teammates can easily switch between a wide variety of builds from match to match. There more diverse your skill is with the various options, the harder your opponents will have to work to keep up. Don't pigeonhole yourselves for no good reason.

That's... not what we're really talking about. We're talking about team comp. And in general, with an established team, you want people to be secure in their roles. After all, it doesn't matter how good you are at a charger if you're using a roller this match. How much versatility in terms of playing each role each player needs will ultimately depend on how matchmaking works. If you can alter loadouts after seeing the map you're playing on, it'll be more important for each member to know multiple weapons well. If you're locked into equipment chosen before you queue for a match, it's more important for each member to know their role in the team as fully as possible.

 

[Xeiros]

I don't see what the point of this is. You vastly underestimate how versatile a single weapon set can be. You honestly believe Splatoon will be boil down to the map? As in oh it's Saltspary Rig! The Roller is best there, but the Airbrush is awful! Don't use it or you'll lose. It's difficult for me to take anything in this thread seriously when no one has played the final build of the game anywhere near long enough to grasp it's mechanics, end game meta, or just plain or not the game is a imbalanced mess.

 

[DaKid]

I don't see what the point of this is. You vastly underestimate how versatile a single weapon set can be. You honestly believe Splatoon will be boil down to the map? As in oh it's Saltspary Rig! The Roller is best there, but the Airbrush is awful! Don't use it or you'll lose. It's difficult for me to take anything in this thread seriously when no one has played the final build of the game anywhere near long enough to grasp it's mechanics, end game meta, or just plain or not the game is a imbalanced mess.

This. This whole roles thing just sound like you're just going to be restricting yourself and others of playing with what they want and what they're good with just because "we might when if do?". I think people are going to vastly overestimate the competitiveness of the game to a fault.

The way people are talking about playing competitive doesn't sound fun in my book.

 

[Yaezakura]

I don't see what the point of this is. You vastly underestimate how versatile a single weapon set can be. You honestly believe Splatoon will be boil down to the map? As in oh it's Saltspary Rig! The Roller is best there, but the Airbrush is awful! Don't use it or you'll lose. It's difficult for me to take anything in this thread seriously when no one has played the final build of the game anywhere near long enough to grasp it's mechanics, end game meta, or just plain or not the game is a imbalanced mess.

That's why it's called "theory-crafting". We're talking theories here, not hard facts. Obviously no one knows for sure what the best will be. That's why most of us are talking in generalities informed by our experience in other games. But those experiences in other games can, at least, lend some direction for discussion to take place.

Once the game comes out and we've all had time to level up, play with different weapons on different maps, form cohesive teams who can settle into proper roles, and so on, the discussion will deal a lot more in hard fact. Right now, we're just discussing what we think might work out well, to have a place to start from when the game launches.

 

[Lyn]

Why restrict yourselves to roles? Assuming the game actually allows it, you'll be able to alter your setups between matches. There's no need to restrict yourself to select weapon sets or clothing articles. You and your three teammates can easily switch between a wide variety of builds from match to match. There more diverse your skill is with the various options, the harder your opponents will have to work to keep up. Don't pigeonhole yourselves for no good reason.

Yes, but this is probably just discussing viable options. Not that it makes sense to pre-game launch.

 

[Citanul]

This. This whole roles thing just sound like you're just going to be restricting yourself and others of playing with what they want and what they're good with just because "we might when if do?". I think people are going to vastly overestimate the competitiveness of the game to a fault.

The way people are talking about playing competitive doesn't sound fun in my book.

The bold part of your post is super interesting to me. It's true that we don't know how competitive the game will end up being, but I think discussions like this are a good way to start down finding out. Obviously, having the game in our hands is best, but I would say a conversation could be had based on all the live streams and impressions videos of the game out there.

Now, I think overestimating the competitiveness of the game to a fault could be a danger, but it seems like you're concerned with people trying to police what other people play because it's "the meta" thing to do. It's understandable, I've had some uncomfortable situations like this in other team games too. The reason why I think that won't be a big issue in Splatoon is the lack of text/voice chat. No one is going to berate you for picking a roller because it's supposedly a suboptimal pick on some map. And if you're playing competitively with a group of your friends then you guys can sort that out as a team. You're all friends right?

Also, there's overlap between "optimal" picks and what you're good with. So it doesn't necessarily mean anyone is going to force you to play what you don't want to. Maybe you're good at what's "optimal" on the map anyway so that works out great for you (and your team!).

Ultimately (assuming the game is balanced), you'll do better with a setup you're familiar with than with one that you aren't but is "optimal" for that map. But I don't think that fact precludes an "optimal" squad composition from existing for certain maps, and I certainly don't think it precludes us from speculating about it.

 

[Lozjam]

This. This whole roles thing just sound like you're just going to be restricting yourself and others of playing with what they want and what they're good with just because "we might when if do?". I think people are going to vastly overestimate the competitiveness of the game to a fault.

The way people are talking about playing competitive doesn't sound fun in my book.

This game was made by the developers to be highly competitive. That was their goal for developing the game.
If you don't like competitive play. Go. Leave. No one here is making you stay, nor comment in this thread. So why don't you quit taking away from what other people consider fun, and go have fun your way.

 

[Captain Norris]

This game was made by the developers to be highly competitive. That was their goal for developing the game.
If you don't like competitive play. Go. Leave. No one here is making you stay, nor comment in this thread. So why don't you quit taking away from what other people consider fun, and go have fun your way.

Whoa Whoa Whoa. Take a deep breath. He was saying that we shouldn't limit ourselves to having set roles for a set teammate. And he is right. That is what he is referring to overestimating.
In fact, he is one of the bigger pushers of competitive Splatoon (if I remember correctly). And he is 100% right that if we do not let a metagame develop into a competitive structure, then we are essentially overestimating the competitiveness of a game.

 

[Yaezakura]

Whoa Whoa Whoa. Take a deep breath. He was saying that we shouldn't limit ourselves to having set roles for a set teammate. And he is right. That is what he is referring to overestimating.
In fact, he is one of the bigger pushers of competitive Splatoon (if I remember correctly). And he is 100% right that if we do not let a metagame develop into a competitive structure, then we are essentially overestimating the competitiveness of a game.

But... the whole point is that is has to start somewhere. It's obviously going to change once the game comes out and we have facts instead of speculation. People are going to try things, some of them will work, which prompts people to find ways around the things that work, etc.

But this whole discussion is just for the sake of estimating a solid starting point. You generally don't want to go into an experience, especially a competitive one, completely blind. So, we discuss things. Try to weigh their merits. Try to feel our way in the darkness so there's at least a little light when the actual experience drops.

 

[Captain Norris]

But... the whole point is that is has to start somewhere. It's obviously going to change once the game comes out and we have facts instead of speculation. People are going to try things, some of them will work, which prompts people to find ways around the things that work, etc.

But this whole discussion is just for the sake of estimating a solid starting point. You generally don't want to go into an experience, especially a competitive one, completely blind. So, we discuss things. Try to weigh their merits. Try to feel our way in the darkness so there's at least a little light when the actual experience drops.

I agree. However, I think what @DaKid is troubled with is the way you are going about doing such pre-release strategy. I am not saying I am with or against either side, however.