A few problems with ranked

[Award]

This last Splatfest I had an interesting experience. Both my team and the enemy had almost exactly the same weapon distribution. I'm not sure if this was a fluke or if this was the new matchmaking coming into play. If it is it would be an answer to one of these problems. Has anyone else seen anything like this? @Award I'm definitely guilty of bad days so don't feel to bad about it. I think your right and it is probably the second which makes the future brighter. I've used almost all those weapons and never had it happen, maybe it's a bug on your end.

Given my team matches I'm starting to think there's just a bug on the server with where I'm slotted or something. I get the bad team most of the time. Also, it sort of happened again in TW. 3 E-Liters on my team, ,but none on the other (just a hero shot.) Guess who won? Though ironically it wasn't as crushing a defeat as a dozen balanced rounds with really awful team mates.

I'm a little afraid to rejoin ranked with this, but in the past I think I've had better ranked teams. Still bad, but not self destructive, lol.

 

[Crimsoninkling]

Rainmaker is broken not by the game' but by the stupid little kids on my team. Oh dont get me started on the laggers.

 

[Award]

Rainmaker is broken not by the game' but by the stupid little kids on my team. Oh dont get me started on the laggers.

LOL, yeah. Oh, I don't care about the laggers, not their fault. It's frustrating, but it happens. I hate seeing people teleport, and with a sploosh it's REALLY painful, but I can accept that's just part of playing online, frustration and all. Bad team mates in RM, on the other hand....there's no fix for that. We need a team PK version of RM :D

I've never been a huge CTF fan in general, but I had some fun with RM - but I just avoid it now. Too high a chance of losing points from a bad team. I wish we could play ranked modes in an unranked fashion. I'd play RM a lot more often if I didn't have rank riding on it. There are only two types of random RM team mates: The ones that grab the RM any time it exists and charge right into he fully enemy inked territory in the straightest, most predictable line possible, and the ones who are convinced it's actually a radioactive substance and should be observed only from afar.

There is only one kind of opponent. The ones who have previously organized a strategy, positioning, work as a cohesive unit, and can deliver the RM to your base in less then a minute. (While your team watches from afar.)

A few times I got lucky and had a team that, while they refused to pick up the RM themselves ACTUALLY played great support and inked paths from the RM to the objective, watched them, and spammed c'mon until somebody other than themselves (that would be me) grabbed it and ran with it. Big squid hugs to those guys whoever they may be. That was C rank believe it or not.

 

[97Stephen]

I don't think a for fun ranked is going to happen. I don't think that Splatoon has the playerbase to support it. If they did make it, everybody who feels like you (which is probably a lot of people) will only play that leaving no one to play ranked but the really, really good, which would make it very hard to get a game, especially on the lower ranks.

 

[Award]

I don't think a for fun ranked is going to happen. I don't think that Splatoon has the playerbase to support it. If they did make it, everybody who feels like you (which is probably a lot of people) will only play that leaving no one to play ranked but the really, really good, which would make it very hard to get a game, especially on the lower ranks.

Yeah, you're right about that. It's just a shame because there's NO way to practice those modes or develop strategies without putting your rank on the line. And since they're very strategic modes, running it without being able to practice, especially when brining new weapon types into it is very troublesome. That leaves TW as the only way to practice...which hurts TW since I think one of the reasons you end up with teams of lv45 people that have terrible k/ds and inked nothing yielding a massive loss, is because they were only there to practice weapon techniques for map control as a rehersal for ranked. I.E. they show up in TW but don't actually play TW, leaving teammates that are there to play TW stranded. And it hurts ranked because you end up with terrible players on your team that act like they have no idea what they're doing with a given weapon, mostly because they have no idea what they're doing with the weapon, even if they're otherwise good players.

But I also agree that non-ranked ranked would hurt ranked as well due to small player base. The only two possible fixes I can see are a third "practice ranked" rotation (regular battle, ranked battle, practice ranked battle) that has only one map per rotation, or a single player practice round vs. octolings.

I like the first idea. A rotation with 2 TW maps, 2 TC ranked map, and 1 P-TC map. To encourage real ranked they could have practice ranked not affect our rank, BUT yield only C-C+ tier money/XP rewards.

 

[97Stephen]

Yeah, you're right about that. It's just a shame because there's NO way to practice those modes or develop strategies without putting your rank on the line. And since they're very strategic modes, running it without being able to practice, especially when brining new weapon types into it is very troublesome. That leaves TW as the only way to practice...which hurts TW since I think one of the reasons you end up with teams of lv45 people that have terrible k/ds and inked nothing yielding a massive loss, is because they were only there to practice weapon techniques for map control as a rehersal for ranked. I.E. they show up in TW but don't actually play TW, leaving teammates that are there to play TW stranded. And it hurts ranked because you end up with terrible players on your team that act like they have no idea what they're doing with a given weapon, mostly because they have no idea what they're doing with the weapon, even if they're otherwise good players.

But I also agree that non-ranked ranked would hurt ranked as well due to small player base. The only two possible fixes I can see are a third "practice ranked" rotation (regular battle, ranked battle, practice ranked battle) that has only one map per rotation, or a single player practice round vs. octolings.

I like the first idea. A rotation with 2 TW maps, 2 TC ranked map, and 1 P-TC map. To encourage real ranked they could have practice ranked not affect our rank, BUT yield only C-C+ tier money/XP rewards.

That's an interesting idea, but only one map still is pretty restrictive. It wouldn't help people like me who don't get on that often. This is where I feel that a vs. octopi mode could be used. The dummies in the training area are only so useful and they don't have to be smart, just moving targets. I've been a charger in tw and thought "if I had been something else we could have won". I can see a "practice" mode being the same as now, level 50s stomping level 10s that are just trying out weapons.

 

[Award]

That's an interesting idea, but only one map still is pretty restrictive. It wouldn't help people like me who don't get on that often. This is where I feel that a vs. octopi mode could be used. The dummies in the training area are only so useful and they don't have to be smart, just moving targets. I've been a charger in tw and thought "if I had been something else we could have won". I can see a "practice" mode being the same as now, level 50s stomping level 10s that are just trying out weapons.

Yeah, but at least you could practice strategies against the lvl50's without being dropped in rank. But, I'd not scoff at octopi either. The static dummies are a horrible test. Many weapons feel good that feel terrible in battle, and vice versa. They don't let you practice aim, etc. And TW should be used to PLAY, not to just have target practice.

Today I've come to the conclusion that matchmaking is worse than I thought, and ranked is, honestly, flat out broken. There, I said it. Splatoon Ranked is just a flat out bad game. I love Splatoon, I'm a Splatoon addict. Splatoon=TW. Ranked is too broken to be considered viable play as a result of the poor matchmaking.
I may just quit ranked all together and leave it at B. I got lucky and my favorite rotation was up, the one I aced in an hour from B- to B as team leader: Mahi + Bluefin TC. Brought in my neo luna and got trounced. Ok, first round, my fault, I didn't have my bearings, fell into the Bluefin water 3x. But it got worse. Teams that never touched the tower. Teams that let the enemy effectively spawncamp us, camping in their own ink in OUR base for the entire match. I'd clear them out, ,they'd be back. The majority of rounds, I was the team leader. Half the rounds I was the leader out of BOTH teams. One round a lvl 47 & lvl49 show up to a mostly 25-35 room. BOTH get assignd to the other team. Amazingly we won that round in OT. Unamazingly it was ME who shot them off the tower every time they almost parked it, and it was ME who finally got it to lead. One round we lost, I had a k/d of 18/12. TWICE I'd killed 3/4 the enemy time in one volley. We still lost. Where was my team? Not on the tower, that's for sure. Not under it either. Ultimately I did move ahead 30pts, but it's just not worth putting up with broken gameplay that pits super enemies against a ragtag tea where someone that gets 18/12, rides the tower, and flattens the entirity of the enemy team twice in 5:00 LOSES rank points. That's like a mario game where random goombas have invisible spike hats. That's not a competitive play, its an RNG. I' finding it more difficult to accept that a player is a given rank if they can perform the best out of both teams and keep losing due to random assignment.

At this rate I guess I should treat ranked as TW, ignore ranks and not consider them any more important thatn Judds "So Hawt" flags. and play it like TW - just loose all day go down to C- and just not care about rank. I hate saying it, the modes are fun. But until they fix the scoring or matchmaking, ranked really isn't ranked at all. I suspect everyone that made it to upper A or S months ago had a more balanced path into a better lineup.

 

[97Stephen]

Yeah, but at least you could practice strategies against the lvl50's without being dropped in rank. But, I'd not scoff at octopi either. The static dummies are a horrible test. Many weapons feel good that feel terrible in battle, and vice versa. They don't let you practice aim, etc. And TW should be used to PLAY, not to just have target practice.

Today I've come to the conclusion that matchmaking is worse than I thought, and ranked is, honestly, flat out broken. There, I said it. Splatoon Ranked is just a flat out bad game. I love Splatoon, I'm a Splatoon addict. Splatoon=TW. Ranked is too broken to be considered viable play as a result of the poor matchmaking.
I may just quit ranked all together and leave it at B. I got lucky and my favorite rotation was up, the one I aced in an hour from B- to B as team leader: Mahi + Bluefin TC. Brought in my neo luna and got trounced. Ok, first round, my fault, I didn't have my bearings, fell into the Bluefin water 3x. But it got worse. Teams that never touched the tower. Teams that let the enemy effectively spawncamp us, camping in their own ink in OUR base for the entire match. I'd clear them out, ,they'd be back. The majority of rounds, I was the team leader. Half the rounds I was the leader out of BOTH teams. One round a lvl 47 & lvl49 show up to a mostly 25-35 room. BOTH get assignd to the other team. Amazingly we won that round in OT. Unamazingly it was ME who shot them off the tower every time they almost parked it, and it was ME who finally got it to lead. One round we lost, I had a k/d of 18/12. TWICE I'd killed 3/4 the enemy time in one volley. We still lost. Where was my team? Not on the tower, that's for sure. Not under it either. Ultimately I did move ahead 30pts, but it's just not worth putting up with broken gameplay that pits super enemies against a ragtag tea where someone that gets 18/12, rides the tower, and flattens the entirity of the enemy team twice in 5:00 LOSES rank points. That's like a mario game where random goombas have invisible spike hats. That's not a competitive play, its an RNG. I' finding it more difficult to accept that a player is a given rank if they can perform the best out of both teams and keep losing due to random assignment.

At this rate I guess I should treat ranked as TW, ignore ranks and not consider them any more important thatn Judds "So Hawt" flags. and play it like TW - just loose all day go down to C- and just not care about rank. I hate saying it, the modes are fun. But until they fix the scoring or matchmaking, ranked really isn't ranked at all. I suspect everyone that made it to upper A or S months ago had a more balanced path into a better lineup.

Ouch, that sounds pretty bad. It does get better if you can make it up. I'm in A and the teams are mostly even, I have times where I get stomped by an awesome team, but that happens. If I do get stomped I'll leave and find another team. I'll do that till I find a more even team, cause if three people are really bad they will probably end up on your team. Could you play squads? You could try to find people on squidboards to play with if you don't like randoms. I play support so I don't really push at all, just shoot people off the tower. I can see people saying I didn't do anything but I think I contributed.

 

[Award]

Ouch, that sounds pretty bad. It does get better if you can make it up. I'm in A and the teams are mostly even, I have times where I get stomped by an awesome team, but that happens. If I do get stomped I'll leave and find another team. I'll do that till I find a more even team, cause if three people are really bad they will probably end up on your team. Could you play squads? You could try to find people on squidboards to play with if you don't like randoms. I play support so I don't really push at all, just shoot people off the tower. I can see people saying I didn't do anything but I think I contributed.

Bad doesn't cut it Remember the old arcade games where you knew the bosses were rigged just to get you to pump quarters in? If Splatoon were monetized, this would be that. :p

Yeah, I figured the A ranks were better, and that's why I wanted to get into A. I'd be curious if people currently A and above were to create alt accounts how they'd find their experience climbing ranks again in the game's present state. I suspect it would be much harder than originally getting into A was. I always thought it was frustrating that I seem to be the only player that counts. If I don't lead the team we don't win. But now it's to the point that even if I do lead the team, overwhelmingly, we still don't win. And it's not that the opposing team was THAT good, I've played harder individual opponents in TW. Honestly I don't think I could go 18/12 (the second best score I've seen ANY non-eliter play, BTW) against MOST of the TW opponents I face. So if the enemy wasn't great, it means my team was awful. But I changed lobbies a few times and got similar results. It's a consistent theme with the matchmaking for me in all modes. The other thing wrong with ranked is I found a lot of lvl40-50 players in B rank. (Always on the other team though...) TW gives so few pointts to level up, so I'm presuming most of these people got their levels playing mostly ranked. Also keep in mind there were only B and B- in these matches, no B+ or A-. Yet getting out of C+ I faced exclusively B opponents (not B-.) But somone at lvl50 didn't get there in TW (unless they have serious addiction problems), so I'm guessing a lot of them were really from the A's and S's and were bumped down. But always on the other team. So I get stuck playing 1v4 A rank. 2v3 A ran on a good round.

Squads may be the way to go, though I'd probably hold the squad down for a while (band in ranked) since I'm not familiar with squad play in Splatoon. Still means ranked is broken though.

IMO I think they should stop dropping players ranks, or at least ONLY drop your rank if you lose enough points AND are the bottom player or have the worst k/d for two consecutive rounds or something. The problem with rank dropping is like in my case I didn't drop from B, fortunately, but you have this worry of "if I lose 10pts by losing one round, they take another 30pts from me", Your team can force you to drop ranks regardless of our own performance - but the problem it causes is it taints the rank below. And the more months it goes on, the more tainted the pools become. When you have good players that get dropped rank because of bad teams, it means you now have a pool of good players playing 1-2 (or more) ranks below their real experience and play level creating very unbanced teams for the people trying to climb. If I'm stuck playing mostly A enemies in B, am I really B if I'm playing A matches? Similarly if I get bumped to B, ,or worse C+ - then the C+ palyers are playing against someone that's experience is playing solo against A rank players. They can't stand a chance. And that's no fun for them, and it's just frustrating for me.

Honestly, I'd rather play support in ranked at this point as well. I really enjoy it in TW. But if I' not the one pushing the objective, it might as well just be a screeshot. the map won't chane. :(

Edit: Darn laptop keyboard wont register all keys unless I slam on them and I have a darn callus on my splatoon trigger finger causing me to have way more typos than normal! :)

 

[97Stephen]

Bad doesn't cut it Remember the old arcade games where you knew the bosses were rigged just to get you to pump quarters in? If Splatoon were monetized, this would be that. :p

Yeah, I figured the A ranks were better, and that's why I wanted to get into A. I'd be curious if people currently A and above were to create alt accounts how they'd find their experience climbing ranks again in the game's present state. I suspect it would be much harder than originally getting into A was. I always thought it was frustrating that I seem to be the only player that counts. If I don't lead the team we don't win. But now it's to the point that even if I do lead the team, overwhelmingly, we still don't win. And it's not that the opposing team was THAT good, I've played harder individual opponents in TW. Honestly I don't think I could go 18/12 (the second best score I've seen ANY non-eliter play, BTW) against MOST of the TW opponents I face. So if the enemy wasn't great, it means my team was awful. But I changed lobbies a few times and got similar results. It's a consistent theme with the matchmaking for me in all modes. The other thing wrong with ranked is I found a lot of lvl40-50 players in B rank. (Always on the other team though...) TW gives so few pointts to level up, so I'm presuming most of these people got their levels playing mostly ranked. Also keep in mind there were only B and B- in these matches, no B+ or A-. Yet getting out of C+ I faced exclusively B opponents (not B-.) But somone at lvl50 didn't get there in TW (unless they have serious addiction problems), so I'm guessing a lot of them were really from the A's and S's and were bumped down. But always on the other team. So I get stuck playing 1v4 A rank. 2v3 A ran on a good round.

Squads may be the way to go, though I'd probably hold the squad down for a while (band in ranked) since I'm not familiar with squad play in Splatoon. Still means ranked is broken though.

IMO I think they should stop dropping players ranks, or at least ONLY drop your rank if you lose enough points AND are the bottom player or have the worst k/d for two consecutive rounds or something. The problem with rank dropping is like in my case I didn't drop from B, fortunately, but you have this worry of "if I lose 10pts by losing one round, they take another 30pts from me", Your team can force you to drop ranks regardless of our own performance - but the problem it causes is it taints the rank below. And the more months it goes on, the more tainted the pools become. When you have good players that get dropped rank because of bad teams, it means you now have a pool of good players playing 1-2 (or more) ranks below their real experience and play level creating very unbanced teams for the people trying to climb. If I'm stuck playing mostly A enemies in B, am I really B if I'm playing A matches? Similarly if I get bumped to B, ,or worse C+ - then the C+ palyers are playing against someone that's experience is playing solo against A rank players. They can't stand a chance. And that's no fun for them, and it's just frustrating for me.

Honestly, I'd rather play support in ranked at this point as well. I really enjoy it in TW. But if I' not the one pushing the objective, it might as well just be a screeshot. the map won't chane. :(

Edit: Darn laptop keyboard wont register all keys unless I slam on them and I have a darn callus on my splatoon trigger finger causing me to have way more typos than normal! :)

I wouldn't call ranked broken, it's playing with randoms. I have no experience with making games so I can't speak with authority, but I think player skill is a hard thing to measure, especially in Splatoon. Level only means how long long they have been playing, not how skillful they are. I've heard of people who have been stuck in B rank, and they could well be 50s. People who can get up into the higher ranks have demonstrated the skill to win. I think a big problem with ranked is that people have a lone wolf mentality instead of "what will help the team", it works in tw but not in ranked. I've heard several people state that you can carry a team in B rank but not above that. It's really funny to me on reflection how often it's "my team" that's awful. I can't always have the bad team. There are sometimes when it is very clear to me when I'm doing horribly, but I wonder if there was a way to objectively measure how much I actually contributed if I would have done that much. If a good player drops a rank, if he is good enough to crush the other players then he should rise back in rank very quickly. I play support because I found that very few few people play support. I mean kind of like a charger, hanging back, shooting enemies that are shooting my teammates, throwing point sensors, stuff like that. I never push but if someone else does I support them. It doesn't get you the most kills, but it can be very rewarding to see the big picture.

 

[Award]

I wouldn't call ranked broken, it's playing with randoms. I have no experience with making games so I can't speak with authority, but I think player skill is a hard thing to measure, especially in Splatoon. Level only means how long long they have been playing, not how skillful they are. I've heard of people who have been stuck in B rank, and they could well be 50s. People who can get up into the higher ranks have demonstrated the skill to win. I think a big problem with ranked is that people have a lone wolf mentality instead of "what will help the team", it works in tw but not in ranked. I've heard several people state that you can carry a team in B rank but not above that. It's really funny to me on reflection how often it's "my team" that's awful. I can't always have the bad team. There are sometimes when it is very clear to me when I'm doing horribly, but I wonder if there was a way to objectively measure how much I actually contributed if I would have done that much. If a good player drops a rank, if he is good enough to crush the other players then he should rise back in rank very quickly. I play support because I found that very few few people play support. I mean kind of like a charger, hanging back, shooting enemies that are shooting my teammates, throwing point sensors, stuff like that. I never push but if someone else does I support them. It doesn't get you the most kills, but it can be very rewarding to see the big picture.

If it's broken playing with randoms, it's broken. Randoms is how most people play Splatoon (I'd argue that mixing team lobbies with random is also broken, but that's a different topic.)

Here's the thing, we were discussing in one or two other threads that my theory is that there's more to matchmaking than just level, that there's metadata involved in determining a players match. In the Naught/Nice thread (during Splatfest, not ranked) Zombie Aladdin had a similar experience as myself and had arrived at the same conclusion as me, without my suggesting it. For both of us it's as though matchmaking (in all modes) pairs us with unskilled teammates against stronger opponents as though it's (wrongly) determined we can for some reason carry any team to victory against a tougher foe. It's not just ranked for me, it's become universal, but it makes ranked very broken. If it were truly random I don't think it would be as bad as it is. You'd get good/bad teams in equal measure. For some of us it seems we get explicitly paired in unfavorable combinations most of the time as though it's a broken attempt at machmaking based on calculated player skill. My theory (purely theory) is that ZA and I share a playstyle that triggers certain measurements to think we're better than we are and can be paired less favorably. It could be paranoia, but there's something ery wrong all the same.

I have two Wii U's in my home. Both with Splatoon. The other player is lv26, but C- rank. Plays pretty much exclusively TW. Tries all weapons, like me. Does ok, but is technically a pretty bad player. When I was lv26 (as soon as I hit lv20) I started getting matched in TW exclusively with LV40+. After 2.4 I get matched with 30+ (I'm lv35.) But mostly 40+. The other WiiU, when playing at the same time as me, gets matched with lv0-15 mostly. It KNOWS they're not a good player at lv26. It KNEW I am a good player at lv26. It matches us entirely differently based on real performance. I think it thinks I'm a mega player somehow.

You're right, by far, about the lone wolf mentality, though Nintendo really avoided that by making the ranked objectives automatically result in teamwork amid the chaos. But where it gets complicated is when you have an enemy tea with complex strategies beyond the objective like camping the enemy base as a priority, etc. How does a team of randoms coordinate a strategy like that? Or is it not all randoms? I'm not sure how the party lobbies work in terms of pulling extra players in, but i know in TW I've seen definite organized groups, presumably communicating outside the game, and I know when the random distribution puts them on the other team, it's clear they throw the match. Maybe ranked doesn't allow that, but if it does, that's simply cheating, plain and simple. (And no, it's not a plea for voice chat - if splatoon had voice chat I wouldn't have even purchased it.)

I tried splat zones the other day as an eliter for support. That definitely did not go well. I didn't do badly, but I got to observe the team just doing such stupid moves there's no support in the world that can save them. And that's the odd problem with ranked. If I don't personally push the objective, we WILL lose. If I play support, we WILL lose. If only id DID work as a team. It's single player. I have to win it (but as seen even if I massively do, we still don't win much.)

I'm not sugesting I'm a great player. I'm not. Never been a master at shooters. But I'm a better than average player and consistently better than the people I'm loosing with (and often better than the people I'm losing TO.) I really don't believe my actual skill level would be higher than A-. Maybe it is and I'd be surprised, but if I was "stuck" in A-, I'd feel that was a fair placement. I can't touch those S rank guys, and I'm fine with that.

I'm guessing those "lvl50 guys that are stuck in B" are the guys that are trouncing me. They SHOULDN"T be stuck in B, and that's my point. They're clearly higher level players than the rest of the B field, and not by a little. The fact that I'm in B is wrong. The fact that some of the people I'm playing against are in B is a travesty and indicates a problem. Some of these mega players are B-! How are they B-. I've escaped B- twice now. Those guys are MUCH better than me. They're no B-. They're no B. So why are they there? Not through fair competition.

What K/D rate would you say is "good" for ranked for a support player? In case I try it again, I'd like to know what would be considered useful at a higher rank. I'm tired of "ultra tryhard, carry the team myself" in ranked. If I take up support I'll probably drop back to C forever. But at least I'll get to play 3/4 the game modes again....

Then again, I'm pretty sure the people I'm playing with wouldn't be helped by an echolocator anyway.... :p

 

[97Stephen]

If it's broken playing with randoms, it's broken. Randoms is how most people play Splatoon (I'd argue that mixing team lobbies with random is also broken, but that's a different topic.)

Here's the thing, we were discussing in one or two other threads that my theory is that there's more to matchmaking than just level, that there's metadata involved in determining a players match. In the Naught/Nice thread (during Splatfest, not ranked) Zombie Aladdin had a similar experience as myself and had arrived at the same conclusion as me, without my suggesting it. For both of us it's as though matchmaking (in all modes) pairs us with unskilled teammates against stronger opponents as though it's (wrongly) determined we can for some reason carry any team to victory against a tougher foe. It's not just ranked for me, it's become universal, but it makes ranked very broken. If it were truly random I don't think it would be as bad as it is. You'd get good/bad teams in equal measure. For some of us it seems we get explicitly paired in unfavorable combinations most of the time as though it's a broken attempt at machmaking based on calculated player skill. My theory (purely theory) is that ZA and I share a playstyle that triggers certain measurements to think we're better than we are and can be paired less favorably. It could be paranoia, but there's something ery wrong all the same.

I have two Wii U's in my home. Both with Splatoon. The other player is lv26, but C- rank. Plays pretty much exclusively TW. Tries all weapons, like me. Does ok, but is technically a pretty bad player. When I was lv26 (as soon as I hit lv20) I started getting matched in TW exclusively with LV40+. After 2.4 I get matched with 30+ (I'm lv35.) But mostly 40+. The other WiiU, when playing at the same time as me, gets matched with lv0-15 mostly. It KNOWS they're not a good player at lv26. It KNEW I am a good player at lv26. It matches us entirely differently based on real performance. I think it thinks I'm a mega player somehow.

You're right, by far, about the lone wolf mentality, though Nintendo really avoided that by making the ranked objectives automatically result in teamwork amid the chaos. But where it gets complicated is when you have an enemy tea with complex strategies beyond the objective like camping the enemy base as a priority, etc. How does a team of randoms coordinate a strategy like that? Or is it not all randoms? I'm not sure how the party lobbies work in terms of pulling extra players in, but i know in TW I've seen definite organized groups, presumably communicating outside the game, and I know when the random distribution puts them on the other team, it's clear they throw the match. Maybe ranked doesn't allow that, but if it does, that's simply cheating, plain and simple. (And no, it's not a plea for voice chat - if splatoon had voice chat I wouldn't have even purchased it.)

I tried splat zones the other day as an eliter for support. That definitely did not go well. I didn't do badly, but I got to observe the team just doing such stupid moves there's no support in the world that can save them. And that's the odd problem with ranked. If I don't personally push the objective, we WILL lose. If I play support, we WILL lose. If only id DID work as a team. It's single player. I have to win it (but as seen even if I massively do, we still don't win much.)

I'm not sugesting I'm a great player. I'm not. Never been a master at shooters. But I'm a better than average player and consistently better than the people I'm loosing with (and often better than the people I'm losing TO.) I really don't believe my actual skill level would be higher than A-. Maybe it is and I'd be surprised, but if I was "stuck" in A-, I'd feel that was a fair placement. I can't touch those S rank guys, and I'm fine with that.

I'm guessing those "lvl50 guys that are stuck in B" are the guys that are trouncing me. They SHOULDN"T be stuck in B, and that's my point. They're clearly higher level players than the rest of the B field, and not by a little. The fact that I'm in B is wrong. The fact that some of the people I'm playing against are in B is a travesty and indicates a problem. Some of these mega players are B-! How are they B-. I've escaped B- twice now. Those guys are MUCH better than me. They're no B-. They're no B. So why are they there? Not through fair competition.

What K/D rate would you say is "good" for ranked for a support player? In case I try it again, I'd like to know what would be considered useful at a higher rank. I'm tired of "ultra tryhard, carry the team myself" in ranked. If I take up support I'll probably drop back to C forever. But at least I'll get to play 3/4 the game modes again....

Then again, I'm pretty sure the people I'm playing with wouldn't be helped by an echolocator anyway.... :p

I definitely agree that there is more to matchmaking than meets the eye. I have a hypothetical theory that might explain why you get those teams. Have you ever played a game that you are really good at that has teams? If my siblings and I play team games, often they, knowing how good I am, will make me be on a team with my little brother or sister. Now why would they do that? Because my brother, being much worse than me, will even the game out a lot more. I think this is what happens. They put four medium people on one team, and two mehs with one good on the other. Obviously this isn't the best way, but it is one. This is just hypothetical, I don't actually have any data on this. As for how it thinks your so great, I have a idea how that could happen. What is your play style? One way that could happen is if you focused on kills mostly. If they organize people based on that, then you'd be placed with people who also focused on kills, which I would think would be the higher players. This is all conjecture though. About teams, squads can only play ranked, and only other squads. What I mean by level 50s in B, is that's where they belong. They don't have the skill to get out of B so they always play there. If they are that good, then they should climb up very quickly. One thing I have noticed is that the closer I get to getting A+, the harder the competition seems to get. It's almost like a test to see if you have the skill to get up there. A good kill rate depends on the game and the mode. I get a lot more on tc because they come to me. My best was with a heavy splatling, I got 12-15, died 2-4. My memory isn't the best though.

 

[Award]

I definitely agree that there is more to matchmaking than meets the eye. I have a hypothetical theory that might explain why you get those teams. Have you ever played a game that you are really good at that has teams? If my siblings and I play team games, often they, knowing how good I am, will make me be on a team with my little brother or sister. Now why would they do that? Because my brother, being much worse than me, will even the game out a lot more. I think this is what happens. They put four medium people on one team, and two mehs with one good on the other. Obviously this isn't the best way, but it is one. This is just hypothetical, I don't actually have any data on this. As for how it thinks your so great, I have a idea how that could happen. What is your play style? One way that could happen is if you focused on kills mostly. If they organize people based on that, then you'd be placed with people who also focused on kills, which I would think would be the higher players. This is all conjecture though. About teams, squads can only play ranked, and only other squads. What I mean by level 50s in B, is that's where they belong. They don't have the skill to get out of B so they always play there. If they are that good, then they should climb up very quickly. One thing I have noticed is that the closer I get to getting A+, the harder the competition seems to get. It's almost like a test to see if you have the skill to get up there. A good kill rate depends on the game and the mode. I get a lot more on tc because they come to me. My best was with a heavy splatling, I got 12-15, died 2-4. My memory isn't the best though.

That's pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking, with the matchmaking. And where I think the defect is. Generally I focus on whatever needs focusing on. In TW I'd focus on securing an area. If the key areas don't have opponents, I might not kill ANYONE if I'm playing with a good coverage weapon. And if I'm playing a good camp weapon I'll usually try to lock down a key point (the top of saltspray for example.) If my team happens to be good, I might have nothing to do the whole match, and I'll just disembark to paint little corners in the last 20 seconds. If the team isn't good, I'll be trying to rack up the kills and repaint as they come to me. If part of the base is unpainted I'll spend the time to paint it, even if all I've got is an eliter. Splat Zones I generally hold the zone and sit just outside the zone the whole match, running in when it needs painting or to swat the enemy team off. (And of course respawn...) I know good players will try to take other turf. I mostly just sit by the zone. TC, I run back and forth shooting everyone offf the tower then trying to get on the tower - so that one's pretty kill focused. So is SZ, but that's more a deterrent. RM? I avoid RM these days :p Mostly I try playing support there.....but usually it comes down to me running the RM. Haven't played it too much, by choice.

I'm not sure if it's looking at "kill focus" so much as more important data such as general k/d, plus probably some control/input details, reflex/response etc, proximity to enemy....easy stuff to record. But ultimately I do believe it has determined I'm a better player than I am and pairs me accordingly. There can be little explanation beyond that as to how ranked is just so bad. If I lose most rounds and was clearly the one letting the team down, then I'd know I'm not keeping up with the rank. When I lose most rounds and was a top 2 performer in 80% of rounds, there's not much more I can put into it to "become good enough to climb". If I'm already the best or second best on the field, at what rank's skill level to I have to play to get out of the current skill level? Do I have to perform at A to get out of B? A+? Just A-? Your idea is the same as mine that it thinks I'm so good that I get the team of rookies against the mediums to "balance it" - but the trouble is, it's wrong, I'm a medium. And as long as it has that false presumption, the game will remain broken for me and others. The enemy team isn't amazing or the most hard to hit players I've played with (I can compare them to A,, A+, S rank since I've played those guys in TW - they've showed up after in my Plaza and I checked their rank.) These B teams aren't impossible for me to even hit like some of those guys and don't have the 100% aim accuracy some of those guys have. And my team isn't as HORRIBLE as some of the splatfest teams I've had. But they're so disproportionately matched there's really little hope of succeeding. That's not at all what ranked should be about.

Ahh, heavy splatling, yeah, it'll be easier to rack up kills with that than an eliter or pure support weapon. Best sniper I've ever seen was in TW, a Japanese lvl47 player went 15/1. Thats the best I've seen an eliter do. Best player overall I've seen was with a CSJ 20/3. My 18/12 luna will probably remain my best ever (TC made the counts higher) Losing when getting that score (And the #1 slot) is just depressing.

I'll point out that in the process of two days, I went down to mid B-, back up to mid B, and currently at B 60 - 30pts above where I'd started for that day. So technically I am gaining and slowly working toward moving up...technically speaking. But the process is so painful, frustrating, and outright grindy, I still have litle motivation to actually work THAT hard for it. Especially when the source of troubles isn't competition at B level, but unbalanced teams at ANY level. It's a video game, not a doctoral thesis. Heck, I never finished Xenoblade 3D because I was underleveled for the last bosses and just didn't feel like wasting time grinding up to the right magic level. Grinding in Splatoon is less boring but more frustrating, and a shooter shouldn't be grindy at all

 

[Elecmaw]

At this rate I guess I should treat ranked as TW, ignore ranks and not consider them any more important thatn Judds "So Hawt" flags. and play it like TW - just loose all day go down to C- and just not care about rank. I hate saying it, the modes are fun. But until they fix the scoring or matchmaking, ranked really isn't ranked at all. I suspect everyone that made it to upper A or S months ago had a more balanced path into a better lineup.

I should really keep this mentality too, but it's hard when you have a number next to your name that more or less describes how 'good' you are at Splatoon. Seeing it tank lower and lower gets very aggravating.

I keep seeing teammates which really should never reached S (and not even A), and i keep seeing A ranked people who actually outplay entire S teams. I'll kind of agree that Ranked is a soul-sucking mess right now where the only reliable way to win matches is to 1vs4.

I don't think the big problem is really unfair team weapon distribution, but the bigger problem is that everyone gets the same amount of points no matter how good or bad they did the round. There's also the issue of people who get carried to S though Squads, or rankscum. This generates another ripple effect once people get carried to ranks above their actual skill level, they'll still likely lose every match and get outplayed in their new teams, costing them more points when they are generally still competent enough to maintain rank. Likewise, those other teammates who lost rank end up at an actual lower skill level than they really are.

Of course it's just me being salty right now, but i'd really like to play as a consistently decent team rather than being stuck with one really good teammate and two other garbage allies.

 

[Pinko]

At this rate I guess I should treat ranked as TW, ignore ranks and not consider them any more important thatn Judds "So Hawt" flags. and play it like TW - just loose all day go down to C- and just not care about rank. I hate saying it, the modes are fun. But until they fix the scoring or matchmaking, ranked really isn't ranked at all. I suspect everyone that made it to upper A or S months ago had a more balanced path into a better lineup.

I have this mentality 24/7 when I play ranked and I'm somehow in the Bs. Point being; you don't always end up in c- through not caring, you become a yoyo.

 

[Holidaze]

I honestly stopped caring about who I'm matched up with, or what the team has an excess of or a lack thereof, pretty much after I lost S for the 3rd time. To me, it doesn't matter what rank I am or who's playing. If they're able to play to the best ability of that weapon, and work together with someone terrible like me, it's all good. Hell, I recall games where my entire team was either full chargers,rollers or blasters, yet we'd still win our games against what someone would call "balanced."

A little ending note: So play what weapon you want without having to worry about dropping games, because if you want to get good with a weapon, chances are, you will. And don't focus on yourself, focus on your team, see if they need help, more often than not do I suddenly drop what I'm doing to cover a teammate who isn't doing so hot.

 

[Ninwaifu]

Yeah these are all problems that hopefully they fix in a update or Splatoon 2. I don't think the weapon Variation is fixable. Peoples use what they want, and adding a weapon balance feature might make match making impossible hard to form matches.

(On a side note when I first started playing about a weeks ago I found that turf wars had lv balancing issues, I had many matches were I and a bunch of low levels faced against a team of high levels.)

As for jumping it increases spread and range a bit for most weapons. It can also make you hard to hit when you add striffing with it. Jumping around your target in circles and spuradict deractions to throw them off works well for me, especially with low range weapons like and . Just make sure you got good aim with the gyro controlles. Good luck doing it with analog.

 

[Award]

I should really keep this mentality too, but it's hard when you have a number next to your name that more or less describes how 'good' you are at Splatoon. Seeing it tank lower and lower gets very aggravating.

I keep seeing teammates which really should never reached S (and not even A), and i keep seeing A ranked people who actually outplay entire S teams. I'll kind of agree that Ranked is a soul-sucking mess right now where the only reliable way to win matches is to 1vs4.

I don't think the big problem is really unfair team weapon distribution, but the bigger problem is that everyone gets the same amount of points no matter how good or bad they did the round. There's also the issue of people who get carried to S though Squads, or rankscum. This generates another ripple effect once people get carried to ranks above their actual skill level, they'll still likely lose every match and get outplayed in their new teams, costing them more points when they are generally still competent enough to maintain rank. Likewise, those other teammates who lost rank end up at an actual lower skill level than they really are.

Of course it's just me being salty right now, but i'd really like to play as a consistently decent team rather than being stuck with one really good teammate and two other garbage allies.

It really IS hard to get into that mindset. For now I've still avoided returning to ranked, favoring playing with different weapons in TW instead. I can't get myself to ignore watching the number descend. Yet the flip side is, all I'm doing is ignoring half the gameplay modes to keep a letter next to my name almost no one will see, and even if I go super-ultra tryhard, turn my 18/12 into 20/3, break my gamepad, and carry myself all the way to A- which is still where I feel I really belong, what do I get for it? My hope of getting there would be to be able to play a bunch of games against people confirmed to be the same skill level as myself. That should be the reward for being in a given rank is infinite gaming goodness of well matched teams. That's the prize. And i know that's not what I'd get. I'd just get even more unbalanced teams than I have now. So instead I'd squeak by to A- 30, then never touch ranked again to preserve that rank. My "prize" is playing only 1 of 4 game modes.... When I think about it that way it makes me really question why I'd bother trying rather than throw caution to the wind and embrace C- where I can enjoy random rainmaker in an environment where it's winnable :) I'm not B-rank, I'm B-S rank! "C-" is the Kanji character for it! :D

The unfortunate thing is I'm not sure the Splatoon team realizes there's a problem. And they confirmed in the Famitsu interview that the January end of updates includes changing rules and things ending as well (only balancing continues.) I'm hoping that means they DO intend to change rules in January, and hopefully it will address ranked. But I'm not holding my breath. I agree with you, it's the points system and the team win//lose that's at the heart of the problem. I liked that idea at first, but the flaws become apparent by C+ I've been thinking that it needs to have individual ratings somehow, though I'm not sure how. That's why my idea of "only drop a rank if you're worst on your team twice in a row" is a good stop gap. It lets them not change much about the actual scoring and risk breaking something new, while eliminating worry about dropping rank unless you actually are bad enough to not warrant the current rank. I'd be a lot happier being stuck at B0 untill I can get to B100 despite the loss streaks than keep dropping down. It would still be frustrating but it would have a comfort zone involved if you know you don't suck but keep losing you would know you're going to keep your rank, just be pushed to the bottom of it while still letting the players that are terrible and don't belong in that rank to fall back down. Changing point awards based on performance would work too, but that could risk changing too much and create unintended problems in ranked. Keeping ranks if you're not consistently bottom wouldn't require changing too much. And they already do track your sequential win/loss rate in random ranked, that's part of how they determine your position in the list at the end. The players at the bottom know who they are.... And that's who should be dropped a rank.

And I totally forgot rankscumming....eww. Squads I get, unfair as it is, but scumming... I can't believe people do that, ,I'd be afraid of generally damaging the wii u (fans, disc drive, etc.) And it's such a pain. And what you describe as the ripple effect is indeed what I think the issue is too. Add in the disastrous matchmaking that seems to affect some of us where we're paired with the people that artificially got boosted in rank, AGAINST the people that artificially got dropped in rank, and the gameplay isn't going to be very fun. I doubt the way it's playing out is how the developers actually intended it to play out.

I have this mentality 24/7 when I play ranked and I'm somehow in the Bs. Point being; you don't always end up in c- through not caring, you become a yoyo.

I'm really considering adopting that.....the only one losing is me. 3/4 unplayed game modes to keep a letter? I'm slightly exaggerating about C-....I doubt I could be bounced lower than C+, and so far I haven't been bounced below mid B-, and after switching lobbies a few times to get rid of the losing streak, it only took 45 min or so to get back to B. But CARING about it is far more frustration than it's worth.

Ranked as meaningless as TW....I doubt it's what they intended, but I do think for me that's how it's going to have to be! Once I get over the mental block of not wanting to lose rank, I'll probably enjoy the game more with more modes, long term.

 

[97Stephen]

I don't especially care about my rank so much as just winning. I'm trying to roll some of my gear and I just don't have the time to earn the money through turf war. I actually started playing aggressively today, I got two triple kills and won. It's annoying that that's what it takes, I don't really want to do the one man army. I don't really like the idea of changing points based on placement. In tc I often do support, not really leaving our side and stopping their pushes. The thing is, I'm often on or near the bottom because I didn't push. This often happens to chargers, they don't have to actually kill people to lock down large parts of the map, but that isn't reflected in the results. @Award I checked Nintendo's website and squads can only fight other squads, so I don't see how it's unfair. I can't think there are that many people getting carried. You have to have a decent team for that. Have you ever scummed? It isn't at all that hard, and there is no danger to your system. I've never scummed rank, and I think that's a terrible thing to do.

 

[Award]

[snip] after I lost S for the 3rd time.
...
work together with someone terrible like me,

Yep, you sound absolutely terrible to me... :p

I wonder if I would manage to hit you at all in a match? ;)

I don't especially care about my rank so much as just winning. I'm trying to roll some of my gear and I just don't have the time to earn the money through turf war. I actually started playing aggressively today, I got two triple kills and won. It's annoying that that's what it takes, I don't really want to do the one man army. I don't really like the idea of changing points based on placement. In tc I often do support, not really leaving our side and stopping their pushes. The thing is, I'm often on or near the bottom because I didn't push. This often happens to chargers, they don't have to actually kill people to lock down large parts of the map, but that isn't reflected in the results. @Award I checked Nintendo's website and squads can only fight other squads, so I don't see how it's unfair. I can't think there are that many people getting carried. You have to have a decent team for that. Have you ever scummed? It isn't at all that hard, and there is no danger to your system. I've never scummed rank, and I think that's a terrible thing to do

LOL, yeah, I hear you with earning money through TW. It's really a shame that they kind of force ranked for money and advancing levels (I can't imagine how long lvl50 would take outside ranked.) Out of splatfest shells I take it? So far I'm hoarding my shells, lol. I haven't even decided on a "main" so I don't know what rolls I really want or need. I'm just buying all the shop gear with 4 slots and taking them out to level it up (except the bomb sniffer main shoes.....I don't see much need for them taking up a slot.)

Only two triple kills? Meh, amateur! You're supposed to do it thrice and still lose! ;)

Nintendo is aware that chargers and support players "contribute in ways that are difficult to measure" as stated in their reasoning for not applying the updated placement rules to squad battles. So I don't think they'd break it for eliters. That said, I also take that as a statement that they accept random shouldn't really play support. Which is itself frustrating.

And, good to know there aren't squads for ranked. They DO mix squad and random for TW and it's intensely annoying. Seeing 3 associated clan members in your match can be very distressing as you know they are more coordinated than the rest. And no, I've never scummed gear. I hate the lottery, but it is what it is. But I'm protective of my equipment like that - I don't use inkbrush and nozzlenose because of the exccessive button mashing, too. (Though I played Bayonetta....so, oh well....)

When considering chargers, what do you consider successfully locking down a portion of the map without racking kills. Not ranked, but I was playing the new map in TW tonight as eliter (man that map is a charger's paradise!) - some rounds were great. I played with dialing down sensitivity, I was going 8/0 afew rounds. Then a few rounds got a team that either moved like water or the lag was attrocious. I hit NOTHING the entire set of matches. BUT I was hoping I was still a deterrent, shooting across their tracks and JUST missing them often, but causing them to change course. (A few rounds they caught on and started ganging up on me 2-3 at a time and ignoring the other eliter on my team entirely.....I take it that means job well done? :p) Skatepark.....that's another story.