A moment of silence for the foil flingza roller and the new dread wringer...

[isaac4]

Dread Wringer D has what you would call a support kit. If you want to play hyper aggressively, than use than vanilla one. On top of that, nobody's taking balance patches into consideration. Everybody's favorite meta picks could get nerfed in one way or another, whether it's the main weapon or its kit. For example, V-Splash was the dominant weapon for for the first nine months and then look what happened. Its sub, special and the main weapon ALL got gutted and now the weapon has fallen out of S tier into A tier. Dynamo was considered borderline unplayable at the start of Splatoon 3, and look where it is now. Some issues still remain, but it's climbed up the tier lists quite a bit since then. My point is, you can't just point to today's meta use that as the basis for your argument. Every weapon in the game, whether it's main, sub, or special can be adjusted to improve its balance and competitive viability.

Going from S tier to A tier is not as bad as you're making it out to be and the main weapon was not affected at all besides a small painting distance nerf
Even Crab and burst are still good so idk what you're talking about
It's true that the meta changes and options like pencil that were really bad before can become top tier but it's very rare for something like that to happen and even less when these balance patches haven't been buffing low tiers in what they really struggle with the most. When they do buff them it's something small, and maybe they get better slowly through all those patches but Dynamo went from horrible to slightly worse than mediocre and that's only after a whole year of balance patches. Not even just that but kit synergy matters and if the individual parts of a kit don't work together it doesn't matter how many buffs any part of the kit gets, it's not going to work and Dread obviously did not want beacon. You can still have fun with it but personally, I think kits can be great and fun at the same time.

 

[missingno]

Splash was barely ever touched, the only reason it dropped was because other options got better around it. And it's not like it dropped hard, it's still up there.

Of course patches can always change the meta, but Nintendo has been very slow to make adjustments and when they do it's rarely enough. Dynamo is better than it was, but it's a long way from being good.

There are a lot of problems that have been outstanding for so long that I have little hope they'll ever be addressed. Half the subs in the game have been trash since S2 or even S1, and if they haven't gotten meaningful buffs by now I just doubt they ever will.

I would also argue that deeper issues with kit antisynergy shouldn't be solved by just tweaking numbers. Some things just need to go back to the drawing board, but Nintendo won't ever do that.

It's reasonable to analyze kits through the lens of the current meta under the expectation that 7.0 probably won't be too different. What would you expect the patch to do that could wildly change our perception of Dread D?

 

[DChachouke]

Dread Wringer D has what you would call a support kit. If you want to play hyper aggressively, than use than vanilla one. On top of that, nobody's taking balance patches into consideration. Everybody's favorite meta picks could get nerfed in one way or another, whether it's the main weapon or its kit. For example, V-Splash was the dominant weapon for for the first nine months and then look what happened. Its sub, special and the main weapon ALL got gutted and now the weapon has fallen out of S tier into A tier. Dynamo was considered borderline unplayable at the start of Splatoon 3, and look where it is now. Some issues still remain, but it's climbed up the tier lists quite a bit since then. My point is, you can't just point to today's meta use that as the basis for your argument. Every weapon in the game, whether it's main, sub, or special can be adjusted to improve its balance and competitive viability.

Idk if you're in a place to talk about my arguments when your entire comment was based on your personal experience with low tiers only. Meta changes, while affecting how viable weapons are, don't change the core of a weapon AKA the kit. Not to mention, despite crab having been nerfed, splash is still viable ! It's not top tier anymore, but the kit is just very good for it. And again, it's not only a question of meta, but also a question of fun and synergy.
Beakon/wavebreaker is an awesome kit, but not for dread. It would've been near perfect for explo ! It's all about having a kit that complements the main weapon's weaknesses and strenghts. Weapons have different playstyles and needs, and kits should reflect that.

 

[McSquid82]

Idk if you're in a place to talk about my arguments when your entire comment was based on your personal experience with low tiers only. Meta changes, while affecting how viable weapons are, don't change the core of a weapon AKA the kit. Not to mention, despite crab having been nerfed, splash is still viable ! It's not top tier anymore, but the kit is just very good for it. And again, it's not only a question of meta, but also a question of fun and synergy.
Beakon/wavebreaker is an awesome kit, but not for dread. It would've been near perfect for explo ! It's all about having a kit that complements the main weapon's weaknesses and strenghts. Weapons have different playstyles and needs, and kits should reflect that.

Beakons do complement whatever weapon they're on, especially Dread. If you don't have Cooler but a bunch of Beakons placed around the map, that's a good thing, especially after a team wipe. Not to mention the opposing team has to go around looking for them and if that distracts them from the objective even for a little bit, that's valuable for your team. And I fail to see how tossing out a Wave Breaker doesn't benefit Dread and its teammates by immediately marking and flushing out enemy positions. The Dread Wringer D is good enough to fall into a supportive role like this. It's good enough of a main weapon that if you want a hyper aggressive playstyle and kit, than you can just play the vanilla.

 

[vitellary]

i don't actually understand why people are so against the idea of dread being supportive; it paints insanely well, why couldn't it be a support? i did want a supportive dread kit, but only under the assumption that that would be its 3rd kit. it still deserves an aggressive kit that's better suited for the main weapon's playstyle than the vanilla one, and despite a supportive kit being a nice idea in theory, support via wavebreaker is just not something any weapon in the game really wants (look at custom jr, for example. i've seen that weapon maybe like 2 times in solo queue in the past 6 months). torpedo was a match made in heaven for it and it is fully reasonable to be disappointed that it got a sub that it can't fight with instead (because i don't think suction counts as a sub you fight with, really)

the biggest disappointment to me personally is that dread is maybe like, the worst possible slosher to get wavebreaker. reg slosher, tri-slosher, and bloblobber (and explo, though that's really a different category entirely to me) would all have WAY better synergy with it than dread, and it sucks to me that if third kits ever happen, it's extremely unlikely now that any of those would get wavebreaker

 

[missingno]

The problem with Beakons is that they do nothing for yourself, so the main weapon has to be self-sufficient enough to effectively be playing without a sub. I don't think Dread Wringer is okay with that. They're also just a lot less valuable in Cooler Meta, because it's easier for players to just aggressively jump to each other without needing Beakons.

That's not to say Beakons are terrible, some main weapons can fit them, but I think a lot of low-level and casual players tend to overrate them. They're a sub that lets you feel like you're being a lot more useful than you might actually be.

 

[isaac4]

Beakons do complement whatever weapon they're on, especially Dread. If you don't have Cooler but a bunch of Beakons placed around the map, that's a good thing, especially after a team wipe. Not to mention the opposing team has to go around looking for them and if that distracts them from the objective even for a little bit, that's valuable for your team. And I fail to see how tossing out a Wave Breaker doesn't benefit Dread and its teammates by immediately marking and flushing out enemy positions. The Dread Wringer D is good enough to fall into a supportive role like this. It's good enough of a main weapon that if you want a hyper aggressive playstyle and kit, than you can just play the vanilla.

Beakons can be useful but they work best on weapons that won't be using their sub much anyway or have enough range where they won't need bombs to poke. That's why it would have been good for something like Explo that just focuses on chip damage and constant paint output throughout the whole match. It's also good for backlines because they stay back from the enemy team so they don't get into fights as often and have more time to place beakons around without the high ink cost being too much of a problem. Dread will not be able to deal with anything outside of its range so not having a bomb or a special to displace longer ranged threats will be a big problem. I don't even think a support kit is bad for it but there's so many other supportive kit combinations that would have been better for it. Also, wavebreaker can get destroyed extremely fast so outside of its initial location effect when thrown, it might not get any value at all. Its also super easy to jump over the waves.
I don't think it's horrible for Dread honestly but having beakons is the main problem here. I think if a wave was able to hit an opponent and Dread then had torpedo to follow up and chase the player down, it would be fine but ofc that's not what we have.

 

[isaac4]

i don't actually understand why people are so against the idea of dread being supportive; it paints insanely well, why couldn't it be a support? i did want a supportive dread kit, but only under the assumption that that would be its 3rd kit. it still deserves an aggressive kit that's better suited for the main weapon's playstyle than the vanilla one, and despite a supportive kit being a nice idea in theory, support via wavebreaker is just not something any weapon in the game really wants (look at custom jr, for example. i've seen that weapon maybe like 2 times in solo queue in the past 6 months). torpedo was a match made in heaven for it and it is fully reasonable to be disappointed that it got a sub that it can't fight with instead (because i don't think suction counts as a sub you fight with, really)

the biggest disappointment to me personally is that dread is maybe like, the worst possible slosher to get wavebreaker. reg slosher, tri-slosher, and bloblobber (and explo, though that's really a different category entirely to me) would all have WAY better synergy with it than dread, and it sucks to me that if third kits ever happen, it's extremely unlikely now that any of those would get wavebreaker

Yeah a supportive kit is fine it's just this specific kit that's bad
If it was gonna get beakon I at least wish it got Crab with it

 

[cipsbsndj]

Beakons do complement whatever weapon they're on, especially Dread. If you don't have Cooler but a bunch of Beakons placed around the map, that's a good thing, especially after a team wipe. Not to mention the opposing team has to go around looking for them and if that distracts them from the objective even for a little bit, that's valuable for your team. And I fail to see how tossing out a Wave Breaker doesn't benefit Dread and its teammates by immediately marking and flushing out enemy positions. The Dread Wringer D is good enough to fall into a supportive role like this. It's good enough of a main weapon that if you want a hyper aggressive playstyle and kit, than you can just play the vanilla.

I mean… beacons don’t necessarily compliment whatever they’re on. As someone who has 4 starred Neo Sploosh, I feel that beacons can hurt a weapon’s ability to fight, paint, and retake map control after losing it.
I’m not saying Dread D is on the same level as Neo Sploosh, as Dread’s a better main weapon than Sploosh, but I fear that it will still struggle with a lot of the issues that Neo Sploosh has.

 

[DChachouke]

Beakons do complement whatever weapon they're on, especially Dread. If you don't have Cooler but a bunch of Beakons placed around the map, that's a good thing, especially after a team wipe. Not to mention the opposing team has to go around looking for them and if that distracts them from the objective even for a little bit, that's valuable for your team. And I fail to see how tossing out a Wave Breaker doesn't benefit Dread and its teammates by immediately marking and flushing out enemy positions. The Dread Wringer D is good enough to fall into a supportive role like this. It's good enough of a main weapon that if you want a hyper aggressive playstyle and kit, than you can just play the vanilla.

Not quite. Beakons (and mines, too) thrive on weapons that are longer range since they don't need a bomb to compensate for a lack of range. D Wringer is more toward mid-range, and could really use a bomb, not only to poke at ennemies that are far away, but also to combo with the main weapon.
I will reiterate, but D Wringer's kit, while still usable, doesn't complement its strengths and weaknesses. This kind of kit would be more fit for an explo, stringer, and quite some more backlines
And while I wish you luck on your journey of bringing out the best out of it, I'm gonna ask you to at least recognize that some kits just don't work very well. It's one thing to want to improve your skills with low-tiers, but ignoring their flaws is another one, and will likely bring you more harm than good in your journey.
Some things are simply not meant to be

 

[McSquid82]

I appreciate the replies and here's my thoughts. In my honest opinion, the ratio of main weapon to sub and special is just bad right now. As it stands now, the total number of main and alternate kits is somewhere in the 110 range, when the total number of subs and specials is less than 20 each. To me, that's a huge problem and part of the reason why a bunch of kits feel redundant. There's only so many subs and specials to go around, and if you give the new Dread its dream kit, you have to worry about it overlapping and competing with other weapons for that same niche. That's how you end up with situations like v-slosher or ttek having identical kits, along with the Naut 47 and v-explo. My point is, it's not that simple as everyone is making out to be. I believe the next game should focus on creating even more subs and specials if you really want kit diversity as well as uniqueness.

 

[vitellary]

There's only so many subs and specials to go around, and if you give the new Dread its dream kit, you have to worry about it overlapping and competing with other weapons for that same niche.

the issue with this argument to me is that like, there's only about 10 kits left in the whole game if we assume no 3rd kits, so i actually think we don't need to worry about dread's dream kit overlapping with anything actually; there's like almost nothing left for it to compete with. and even then, if 3rd kits do happen, it is fully possible to give dread its dream kit while maintaining a specific niche for it and every other weapon in the game (source: my thread in which i contemplate 3rd kits for every weapon in the game, in which i think i do a pretty dang good job at making sure every single weapon on it feels unique and doesn't compete with each other to a significant degree)

I believe the next game should focus on creating even more subs and specials if you really want kit diversity as well as uniqueness.

and i think this would make the problem even worse. the problem we are facing is not that there aren't enough specials and subs for everything to be diverse, it's just that the devs are making redundant kits anyway. neo splash did not need to get tristrike at all, that was not necessary for it, but they did it anyway bc, idk they felt like it? ideal diversity means every special has a lot of options that can be chosen for it, and having more specials would make that much harder. if we had 3 specials that all serve the exact same role as tristrike, that would not mean the game has more variety, that would just mean the game has to figure out how to fit a tristrike-esque special on several weapons while each individual special gets put on like 3 things, which ends up feeling even worse than if we just had 9 tristrike weapons

 

[McSquid82]

the issue with this argument to me is that like, there's only about 10 kits left in the whole game if we assume no 3rd kits, so i actually think we don't need to worry about dread's dream kit overlapping with anything actually; there's like almost nothing left for it to compete with. and even then, if 3rd kits do happen, it is fully possible to give dread its dream kit while maintaining a specific niche for it and every other weapon in the game (source: my thread in which i contemplate 3rd kits for every weapon in the game, in which i think i do a pretty dang good job at making sure every single weapon on it feels unique and doesn't compete with each other to a significant degree)


and i think this would make the problem even worse. the problem we are facing is not that there aren't enough specials and subs for everything to be diverse, it's just that the devs are making redundant kits anyway. neo splash did not need to get tristrike at all, that was not necessary for it, but they did it anyway bc, idk they felt like it? ideal diversity means every special has a lot of options that can be chosen for it, and having more specials would make that much harder. if we had 3 specials that all serve the exact same role as tristrike, that would not mean the game has more variety, that would just mean the game has to figure out how to fit a tristrike-esque special on several weapons while each individual special gets put on like 3 things, which ends up feeling even worse than if we just had 9 tristrike weapons

I don't agree. It seems like what you're basically is saying to never add any sub or special ever again because of a perceived hypothetical similarity to another one. In other words, you're acting completely dismissive. There are a ton of ways to make new subs and specials stand out, and ratio for main and sub weapons should be 4 to 1, including kits. Redundancy is a bad thing, no matter how much you don't want to admit it.

 

[missingno]

I think it's the opposite problem, we have too many subs and specials. 19 specials is almost twice what we had in S2. And that's led to problems with top tier specials having too few viable ways to run them. Like we had to wait an entire year just to get one new Crab Tank. And when it comes to subs, most weapons honestly just wish they had a bomb, but even fewer get to have them these days.

 

[vitellary]

Redundancy is a bad thing, no matter how much you don't want to admit it.

we already have specials that are extremely similar to each other, i don't think i'm the one arguing for redundancy when proposing we focus more on making a smaller selection work with more variety between the kits themselves. my post originally said "if we had 3 specials that all serve the exact same role as kraken..." but i changed it because that's hardly even theoretical, reefslider / kraken / ultra stamp are all already very similar to each other

to claim that adding more specials would solve the game's diversity is a critical misunderstanding of what the problem actually is

 

[McSquid82]

I think it's the opposite problem, we have too many subs and specials. 19 specials is almost twice what we had in S2. And that's led to problems with top tier specials having too few viable ways to run them. Like we had to wait an entire year just to get one new Crab Tank. And when it comes to subs, most weapons honestly just wish they had a bomb, but even fewer get to have them these days.

That's on the developers, then. There are plenty of ways to buff the utility subs to where they're actually worth something. For example, increase the Sprinkler's HP along with its painting radius, and improve its low and high power phases. Something like 10 percent would be minor, but then it would paint more than any bomb in the game. Also, remove Object Shredder's insane 1000 percent multiplier against it and cut it to maybe 200 or 300 at most. With the Angle Shooter you just need to increase its damage to 45, and also increase the tracking time, especially on a direct hit. I'd increase it to Point Sensor levels. Toxic Mist just needs a lingering effect to it, similar to the way Disruptor used to work in the first game. Any number of these buffs would give these subs a lot more value and make bombs no longer be the be all end all discussion of top subs.

 

[missingno]

Considering how long the bottom tier subs have been bottom tier for, some since S1, I'm not holding my breath for buffs.

That's not really the point though. The point I'm making is that having too many subs and specials means fewer weapons can have the subs or specials you might actually want to play. Consider Inkjet for example. In Splatoon 2, 12 kits had Inkjet. In Splatoon 3, only 5 kits do.

(Yes, S2 had third kits, but Fresh Squiffer was the only Inkjet third kit, so if we don't count that it's still 11 Inkjets in the first two kits, more than twice as many options as we have in S3.)

 

[McSquid82]

Considering how long the bottom tier subs have been bottom tier for, some since S1, I'm not holding my breath for buffs.

That's not really the point though. The point I'm making is that having too many subs and specials means fewer weapons can have the subs or specials you might actually want to play. Consider Inkjet for example. In Splatoon 2, 12 kits had Inkjet. In Splatoon 3, only 5 kits do.

(Yes, S2 had third kits, but Fresh Squiffer was the only Inkjet third kit, so if we don't count that it's still 11 Inkjets in the first two kits, more than twice as many options as we have in S3.)

I'm not saying that the utility subs will get them, I'm just saying what I think they need. I think if the utility subs were to get some of the buffs I suggested or even more, that could potentially give them value that bombs don't have.

 

[isaac4]

There's only so many subs and specials to go around, and if you give the new Dread its dream kit, you have to worry about it overlapping and competing with other weapons for that same niche. That's how you end up with situations like v-slosher or ttek having identical kits, along with the Naut 47 and v-explo. My point is, it's not that simple as everyone is making out to be. I believe the next game should focus on creating even more subs and specials if you really want kit diversity as well as uniqueness.

Adding more subs and specials isn't the answer for kit diversity.
There's enough as is, the main problem is how the devs are choosing sub and special combinations.
Ttek did not need the same kit as vSlosher just as Neo Splash didn't need to get a similar Tri-Strike kit or how Glooga Deco didn't have to end up sharing the same kit as Machine Neo.
That wasn't from a lack of subs and specials, it's something that only happened because that's what the devs wanted on those weapons, despite there being a lot more options.

 

[missingno]

Gem just touched on this point better than I could.

"In S2, if you liked a special, there was probably a weapon you could play that had it. I don't feel that way in this game, and I don't like that."