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Ace Attorney social thread

Toadamos

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Mar 22, 2015
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Japanifornia. In my mind.
Thanks for linking me to this thread, Ludwig.
I'm just gonna get this outta the way. You all can kill me later.

*BREATHE*




Apollo Justice is the best game in the series for me.
Apollo is the best AA character IMO.
I feel Phoenix shouldn't have gotten his badge back.
I enjoy the crossover.
Apollo's Objection theme is the best Objection Theme for me, alongside his game's Pursuit theme.



...Go ahead. Laugh at me.
 

Moydow

Inkling
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Aug 24, 2014
Messages
5
Already explained why I didn't like AJ, so I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.
I like Apollo as a character much more after DD, since it gave him his own story and made him more distinct from Phoenix, in my opinion. My favourite character should be obvious. :P
I don't think Phoenix should have been in the game in the first place, let alone lose his badge. Once he was in the game, though, getting his badge back was pretty much inevitable.
The crossover and Apollo's theme are pretty cool. Didn't care much for his pursuit theme, though - the original will forever be the best Pursuit theme, for me.

Nobody's going to laugh at you for your opinion, though :) (at least, they shouldn't)
 

Toadamos

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Japanifornia. In my mind.
No one's gonna laugh at her?
Phhwwh.... Ahahahahahahahahaa!
( ´,_ゝ`) I'll just fade out of existance now...
I like Apollo as a character much more after DD, since it gave him his own story and made him more distinct from Phoenix, in my opinion. My favourite character should be obvious. :p
I don't think Phoenix should have been in the game in the first place, let alone lose his badge. Once he was in the game, though, getting his badge back was pretty much inevitable.
Time to drag what little credit I have through the mud again!
I'm the only person besides one guy who really didn't feel Apollo was well developed in DD. In fact, I feel they didn't make any progress with him at all.

  • We STILL don't know why he became a defense attorney. We even know why generic anime gi- I mean, Athena became one, and she was after him!
  • We really only learned the origins of "I'm fine!" and that he had a best friend, who he first showed his attorney badge to. That's...really it.
  • They made his character a watered-down version of his AJ-self. Apollo, in his game, was very laid back, stubborn, a dead-pan snarker, took his job seriously, and was about finding the truth. He even said it, "I'm not the type of lawyer that can overlook a crime." The guy accused his OWN BOSS for a crime! He was out of a job! Did he care? No. He wanted to get to the truth, no matter what. DD comes and garbled it up. Remember how he had no problem accusing Kristoph? Forget about that! We'll make it so he can't just ask Athena "Hey, why are hiding something from me?" and make him go through this pointless Conflicting Loyalty stage where he becomes Pirate!Yumihiko for awhile and loses his charm from his game. I get it; his best friend was murdered. I don't blame him.But this lasts for what? 12 hours tops considering Cosmic Turnabout and Turnabout for Tomorrow are about a few hours apart? And even outside of his redesign state, he acts so. damn. serious. I get he's the one-sane-man, but don't play it to a T! HELLO, he has other traits, y'know!
  • Let's just forget AJ ever happened! We'll ignore that Trucy and Apollo are siblings, that their mother's still alive, all of that! Let's just focus on Athena, who's backstory is almost nearly identical to Edgeworth's!
I'm missing some of my gripes with what DD did to Apollo, but I'll save that for another day because I'm typing this at 12AM and I can't think at all. And I've lost all my credibility anyway.

Now, for something positive. I guess I really shouldn't be complaining Nick got his badge back. I just feel he shouldn't be the main-main protagonist anymore. He could fill in the mentor role, like Mia. He DID quote her in DD, when he wasn't acting as the same Phoenix who showed up with just his badge in the first case in the first game.
But, he didn't need his badge though in order to fill that roll in. He could just be there at the defense's bench, giving you help when needed, acting as Mia.


Okay, I think I'm done here. I'll start running for the hills, now.
 

AEM

The Saltsui no Hadou
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
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131
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Southern California
Apollo Justice is pretty great, like I said before Phoenix really hindered it in some aspects but it was still nice at the end of it.

I wonder what the series would be like now if Phoenix wasn't in the game like originally intended.
 

ZeroParadox

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While I'm not a fan of Dual Destinies (it felt like they tried to have one too many stories in there at once) the point made against why Apollo didn't want to distrust Athena isn't really fair.

Sure, Apollo is serious, but that doesn't mean he isn't prone to doing what he believes is right even if he can't make sense of it - the same trial where he accuses Kristoph is the same trial that he defended Wright, going out of his way to basically say things like "Mr. Wright wouldn't do that because he is Mr. Wright!" The only reason he's quicker to judge Kristoph is because Wright is leading him on by appealing to Apollo's trust in logic, and even then he's hesitant to believe that he could be a murderer.

So now you have Athena, his junior partner, who as far as he concerned has no real reason to kill his best friend (as their only relation is that they have been in the same building before) being put on trial for the murder of her mother AND Terran?

It's not like he could just say "Hey, uh, Athena, I think you killed my friend. Ain't that weird? Ha ha!" Even if he did think she was the murderer, why would she let him know that and put himself at risk of either evidence being mopped up or his own life being put in danger? Instead, he avoids Athena and does what he did against Kristoph - he conducts his own investigation to build up on his interpretation of the facts. And like in the trial with Kristoph, he puts faith that Wright has the ability to prove what Apollo wants to believe (Apollo didn't want to believe Wright was a killer, Wright proved this, and he expected him to do it again for Athena, which he ended up doing.)

So yeah, while I don't enjoy how rushed DD felt, Apollo's character wasn't really changed because of it. It was no different than watching Edgeworth or Wright in Justice For All, with Edgeworth not giving a damn about who he has to hurt to find the truth, and with Wright not being able to deal with the fact that his "justice" might kill someone.
 

Toadamos

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First off, just wanna say, I love your icon.
Second, my actual response. You bring up some good points
on why he didn't just ask Athena what she was hiding from him.
However, just like you have points to counter my argument, I have (somewhat) evidence to back up that he actually COULD have asked Athena why she was lying to him, which also goes back to my previous statement of "Dual Destinies botched up Apollo's character from AJ."
I didn't actually say this myself, but another person did, who shares my POV on how Apollo was done in DD. This is the other guy I mentioned before; The Storyteller on Youtube.
This guy does a better job at explaining this than I ever will. I boldened anything I felt was important.
Sure, Apollo is serious, but that doesn't mean he isn't prone to doing what he believes is right even if he can't make sense of it - the same trial where he accuses Kristoph is the same trial that he defended Wright, going out of his way to basically say things like "Mr. Wright wouldn't do that because he is Mr. Wright!" The only reason he's quicker to judge Kristoph is because Wright is leading him on by appealing to Apollo's trust in logic, and even then he's hesitant to believe that he could be a murderer.
Regardless of how you try to tailor to new fans, you shouldn't discard prior character and story development, and if you have to rely on such petty tactics, I'm sorry, but your milking a story. I find it stupid to believe Apollo would overreact to Athena potentially being the killer, because he accused his boss in his first case and gets himself fired.
(This does relate to this, I promise.)
So now you have Athena, his junior partner, who as far as he concerned has no real reason to kill his best friend (as their only relation is that they have been in the same building before) being put on trial for the murder of her mother AND Terran?
Sure, it's his co-worker, and you could argue he had a strong bond with Athena that he didn't have with Kristoph. But, you can't tell me with a straight face that Apollo went Sonic Boom redesign on us, cause Athena was lying. Why didn't he just ask her? If that were that case, he wouldn't have had considered it a big deal. And I can't stress enough, Apollo accused Kristoph, his boss and somewhat mentor in his FIRST CASE! There was no 'omg, I must wear bandages cause my boss is lying..' He faced the truth head on, much like Apollo is prone to do. Why would Apollo cower away from the truth? His name pun is quite literally 'Justice'. That's what he is. And what he stands for.

Arguably, you could say Kristoph and Apollo's relationship wasn't very clear, but Kristoph taught Apollo everything he knew prior to the first case, so it'd be natural for us to assume Apollo to have somewhat respect towards him. And though, prior to this, I stated I hated Apollo's Kristoph smile in DD, I'll use it as evidence because it helps contradict DD.
The Kristoph smirk leads us to assume Apollo still has traces of Kristoph residing in his personality, and it'd be reasonable to assume this was out of his prior respect. THEREFORE PROVING, his relationship with Kristoph did have merits of admiration there and Apollo still accused him. THUS MEANING, Dual Destinies accusation should've been more confrontation, because Apollo would've faced it more head on. Thus making this another inconsistency in terms of character.

(Yes, he said this at the end of his argument. I just put the image in)
He also goes on how Phoenix wasn't that well done either in DD, mostly because of how inconsistent he is throughout the game. I agree with him on this as well, but this is about Apollo, not Phoenix.
 

ZeroParadox

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Thanks for being respectful about this... and for liking my avatar. But there are some problems with this counter argument, in that it still does not acknowledge the differences in circumstance between Apollo within his own game, and Apollo's situation within Dual Destinies.

A lot of what this Storyteller has to say seems to be making a point based on an idea he's already settled on - that Apollo's redesign was meant to appeal to a different audience. (The first quote talks about the redesign, and the next brings up the redesigns of Sonic Boom, which had a similar purpose to the one he claims is being used for Apollo's new design. That's a possibility, but his points aren't strong enough to prove that, since the reasons why he has done things now and not before are simply because of circumstance.

First, Apollo does not sport bandages simply out of the need to be an edgelord. He specifically covers his eye to not glance at Athena. Admittedly I find this strange, since Athena stands to the left of Apollo during trials as far as perspective is concerned, but never the less, this reason is explained by Apollo himself in game. Obviously he would have no need to do something this drastic around Kristoph - there was no bodily function that was filling him with doubt at the time, like say, the ability to be a human lie detector and notice small "twitches" a person has, since he did not know about that skill at the time.

This point isn't my second main point, but it should be stated that while Kristoph was Apollo's mentor and boss, Wright was his idol. While we may not know much about Apollo, we know for sure that he looked up to Wright a lot as a defense attorney prior to meeting with him. Any bond he did or did not have with Kristoph would have been put in conflict with his ideals of Wright, who was doing a good job of explaining how Kristoph was the killer, which I said earlier, appealed to Apollo's sense of logic. Once again, Apollo does not put bandages on out of sadness or anger, he specifically wears it to stop reading Athena's tells, not because he literally did not want to see her.

My real point is that at no point does Apollo cower from the truth. He quite specifically faces the truth head on by carrying out his own investigation, regardless of who gets in his way, including Wright, much like how he was willing to accuse Kristoph based on the logic. More importantly, I hardly see how building a case against the person you suspect is "cowering from the truth". Is this not the standard routine for main characters in this game? Find a lead, find some evidence? Even if Apollo did not think his life was in danger, he's been in this game too long to assume that even if Athena was the killer that he could prove it without evidence.

His sense of justice is in tact - it's so strong that even tho' he is convicting a friend of murder, who is already under heavy psychological trauma from being accused of killing her mother, he still appears in court to call her out. This is very in line with the same man who was willing to accuse someone else close to him, Kristoph, and is reminiscent of "doing whatever to get to the truth" like Edgeworth - to the point where Edgeworth supports Apollo's willingness to do this. The only one who disagrees with this isn't even Athena - it's Wright. Wright uses silly sentiments like "she's your co-worker" or "have faith" to dissuade Apollo, but he won't have it. Apollo wants Justice, regardless of how badly this turns out for him and ALL of his friends. THAT is true Justice. That is Apollo's character. It has not changed at all from his game.

Finally, the reference to Kristoph at the end does not mean he has "remnants" of Kristoph within his personality because of a close personal bond. Just because I can quote my history teacher from elementary school does not mean I was deeply bonded with that person. But what the line does imply is that Apollo, if anything, has grown as a character who truly is willing to do WHATEVER it takes to get to true justice - even if it means becoming as shrewd as his old mentor to do it. He remembers the line because it's true - all the sentiment in the world won't help you in the face of evidence... which Apollo learned all to well towards the end of Case 4, where Kristoph almost got away thanks to loopholes. Apollo used the reverse of that - he wouldn't allow Wright to get away with a simple "maybe she didn't, maybe she did" in the face of Apollo's equally relevant, if not stronger, evidence against Athena.

And once again, Apollo did not run away from the situation. He built a case against Athena properly, instead of blurting out "YOU ARE TEH KILLER" and risking losing that lead. He then confronted Athena before it was too late, and he did everything to challenge Wright so that they could have a fair trial where they analyzed all the evidence properly to reach a fair verdict. Because that's what his friend deserved - both Terran in his death, and Athena in her potential framing.

They deserve Justice.

Take that.
 

Toadamos

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......I admit defeat. You know you've lost when someone posts an Edgeworth finger wag. Not only that, but you brought up a lot of damn good points. There are only two/three pieces of statement I don't fully think you hit the marker on/I wanted to add on a bit to.

But there are some problems with this counter argument, in that it still does not acknowledge the differences in circumstance between Apollo within his own game, and Apollo's situation within Dual Destinies.
Nothing wrong here, just want to state I do find it odd that he doesn't consider that at the time, Apollo wasn't fully aware he could perceive. Maybe he brought it up earlier in one of his many other posts in the discussion, I dunno.

A lot of what this Storyteller has to say seems to be making a point based on an idea he's already settled on - that Apollo's redesign was meant to appeal to a different audience. (The first quote talks about the redesign, and the next brings up the redesigns of Sonic Boom, which had a similar purpose to the one he claims is being used for Apollo's new design. That's a possibility, but his points aren't strong enough to prove that, since the reasons why he has done things now and not before are simply because of circumstance.
This is one of the statements I feel you didn't quite nail. He't not referring at all to Apollo's redesign; He's talking specifically about the Story Development of the past part. We must remember; in DD, it wasn't the first time Apollo accused someone close to him of murder. He shouldn't be acting like it is, when he's done this sort of thing in the past. He's had these feelings of doubt before. I think that was what Storyteller was going for with that. That's specifically why he brought up the bond between him and Athena and whatnot. I'm pretty sure, anyway.

First, Apollo does not sport bandages simply out of the need to be an edgelord.
Pfft. "Edgelord".
*Ahem* moving along...

Nothing else to say about the rest of this paragraph. You explained it quite well enough as it is. Nothing else to say about the next one, either.

My real point is that at no point does Apollo cower from the truth. He quite specifically faces the truth head on by carrying out his own investigation, regardless of who gets in his way, including Wright, much like how he was willing to accuse Kristoph based on the logic. More importantly, I hardly see how building a case against the person you suspect is "cowering from the truth". Is this not the standard routine for main characters in this game? Find a lead, find some evidence? Even if Apollo did not think his life was in danger, he's been in this game too long to assume that even if Athena was the killer that he could prove it without evidence.
This is the other statement I don't feel you quite got right. I don't think Storyteller was saying "Apollo was a coward because he didn't confront Athena personally, and didn't face the truth head on." I think it was just him explaining exactly how Apollo was, and always has been; About the truth, never cowering away from it, wanting Justice. Hence his name; Apollo Justice. He even says in his video discussing if DD ruined Polly that he thought what he did was smart. Accusing Athena, doing his own investigation, right when she's cleared of killing her mom, remembering everyone that she still wasn't clear of killing Clay, I agree. You basically summed it up, though.

His sense of justice is in tact - it's so strong that even tho' he is convicting a friend of murder, who is already under heavy psychological trauma from being accused of killing her mother, he still appears in court to call her out. This is very in line with the same man who was willing to accuse someone else close to him, Kristoph, and is reminiscent of "doing whatever to get to the truth" like Edgeworth - to the point where Edgeworth supports Apollo's willingness to do this. The only one who disagrees with this isn't even Athena - it's Wright. Wright uses silly sentiments like "she's your co-worker" or "have faith" to dissuade Apollo, but he won't have it.
I want to quickly bring up Justice for All- particularly WHAT JFA is mostly about. Remember when Edgeworth said he found what it meant to be a prosecutor? Remember how Phoenix did the exact same thing, only what it meant to be a defense attorney? "Seeing through the witness's lies and finding out the truth...THAT is what it means to be a defense attorney!" We're just going to completely ignore that and make it so Nick is back to bluffing and relying on luck and blindly defending his clients? Okay, whatever you say, DD.
Apollo wants Justice, regardless of how badly this turns out for him and ALL of his friends. THAT is true Justice. That is Apollo's character. It has not changed at all from his game.
Kinda late for me to say this, but while I think DD is the worst AA game to date, and don't agree with all they did to Apollo, I don't disagree with everything they did, either. I probably came off as that in my original post. This is why I should never type crap at night. I agree, his strong sense of justice is still there, brighter than ever before. He has some of, if not, THE best lines in DD, IMO. I loved his best friend relationship with Clay, (no dur my icon totally doesn't say that) and I liked the redesign. It's not the adorkable Polly I know and love, but I still dig it. Nothing wrong with next part, and mini-rant on Nick's behavior in 5-5, 5-4, and 5-3 is above.

And once again, Apollo did not run away from the situation. He built a case against Athena properly, instead of blurting out "YOU ARE TEH KILLER" and risking losing that lead. He then confronted Athena before it was too late, and he did everything to challenge Wright so that they could have a fair trial where they analyzed all the evidence properly to reach a fair verdict. Because that's what his friend deserved - both Terran in his death, and Athena in her potential framing.

They deserve Justice.

Take that.
And my response has taken it indeed.
Now, to wrap up my long-*** closing statement;





"Now I'd like to conclude by sticking my finger up my nose."
 

ZeroParadox

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Oh, you we're talking about how rushed and awkward some of the characters felt compared to the previous games.

Hell yeah, Dual Destinies is really terrible about that, and it's why I don't like it (except for 5-3, but that was about a new character).
 

Toadamos

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Turnabout Reclaimed was the best for me. Surprisingly, it's also my favorite case of all time.
WEIRD, ISN'T IT?!
Here, to sum it up:

Funny enough, Dual Destinies and one of its only reclaiming factors compared to other games is the characters in it.
EVERYONE IN 5-DLC IS AWESOME AND NONE OF YOU CAN CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE.
Juniper is too adorbs and I'll take her over Athena anyday.
Aristotle Means sees his dentist every 2 days, and is one of my friends's fav villains in the game. (Rhimes was the best IMO, but opinions may vary)
 

PrinceOfKoopas

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Herman Crab is amazing.

Well, wrote an article on Capcom's dissing of Ace Attorney by having it as a no-show at E3.
Worse diss than THE DISSING OF PHOENIX WRIGHT.


I wonder if I should put a spoiler warning in the first post.
(Speaking of which please no AAI2 spoilers here.)
 

Toadamos

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You should probably do that, considering we just spoiled about 2/3 of Dual Destinies and 1/3 of Apollo Justice.

I don't think that there shouldn't be ANY GK2 Spoilers, but how about marking them? I still have yet to play it, but I'm on the second case via playthrough. Raymond Shields is quickly becoming one of the best AA characters for me.
 

PrinceOfKoopas

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Well I edited in,

"Spoiler Policy: You may be spoiled on the series in this thread. That said, please avoid spoiling Ace Attorney Investigations 2. If you must, please use spoiler tags!"
Good yes/no
 

Toadamos

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I can't believe I only now figured this out.
So, the Dual Destinies Artbook is getting released here in America on July 9th. Of course, it's chock-full of content.
Something struck out to me when it came to some of Jacketpollo's concept art.
Here's the page in particular:

Now, I want to direct attention to the Polly wearing sunglasses.
It knew it reminded me of something! It was this!
Just thought it was pretty cool and that when I first noticed the similarities, I lol'd.
ALSO: Anyone else think this Athena concept art looks an awful lot like Lisa Basil if she had a sister?
I actually prefer this over Final Ver. Athena.
 

PrinceOfKoopas

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...Sunglasses Apollo stood out before you singled him out.
I see he never wore a jacket correctly.
There seems to be a pretty good reason why Athena was chosen over Basilthena. :o
 

Toadamos

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You can thank the one the call Clay Terran for that. I guess he didn't want Apollo ripping off his style. Similar to how he has that breathing strip around his nose.
I want to know what this explanation is, because BLUE HAIR IS AWESOME, WHY WOULD YOU GO RED OVER BLUE. Not only that, but I feel it would explain her power more than the one given to us in-game.

SHE COULD'VE BEEN A ROBOT, MAN!
 

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