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Are you in favor in a rank reset? Save rank on Nintendo server/no rank gain in squads

Are you in favor in a rank reset? Save rank on Nintendo server/no rank gain in squads

  • Yes, make everyone C- again, put rank data on nintendo server, no rank gain, loss in squads.

    Votes: 9 25.0%
  • No, but just having rank on nintendo side, the save summers, rank carry will eventually derank

    Votes: 17 47.2%
  • No, just keep it as is.

    Votes: 10 27.8%

  • Total voters
    36

Nero86

Inkling Cadet
Joined
Sep 9, 2015
Messages
236
Location
Sao Paulo
NNID
nero86
I do think there's a Japan vs. West mentality on rank that creates a different perspective. The west views it like a "title that has been earned" and the Japanese don't seem to.

But I think where it differs greatly from Mario Kart and such is because of the team scoring. It works there because your score is your own, it's what you've demonstrated. Splatoon has a very punitive point system but scores on team results where you may not be the most deciding factor on the team. I think that tends to muddle the ranks a lot more than a team scored on solo ranks. And once the player pools become muddled it drives them to become even more muddled. I also think the matchmaker "rounding the corners" to accomodate the small player pool (B+, A-, A, A+, S all being matched together before 2.6??) in addition to all the carrying/scumming/alts issues has created kind of a mess. Also the VERY small sample size of games that represent one rank creates some chaos. Especially with team rating it should be many more games that measure a rank (much less points for winning/losing.)

I'd love to consistently get games at my skill...but which skill is mine? S, the highest I've earned and I frequently fight in squads? A+ where I seem to land often? A- where I seem to get kicked with frequency? B+ where my alt currently is and seems to be getting identically challenging games as I get in A+? :) That's what's kind of broken now. The rank doesn't actually represent a given skill level at all. It's supposed to, but it seems like it doesn't.
I think it deserves some attention, something you have to take care of and follow your strategy to climb up. Like choosing apropriate weapons on some rotations/modes, paying attention if your connection is stable to play a ranked match, finding equips to fit your play style according to modes, dealing with other teammembers' weapons and playstyles, etc.

For me this is ok to call an ability level, not a rank, I think the term Rank fits more to Level, which you climb like a military.
 

BlackZero

Inkling Commander
Joined
Nov 3, 2015
Messages
350
Rank needs to be derived from aggregate play data, rather than a reactionary K factor and player value system. I've gone over that many times, so I won't do it here. The tl;dr is that player rank should be built from statistics on multiple performance indicators gathered over a long period of time rather than W/L.

As for saving rank on Nintendo servers, I don't think so. Save scumming may suck, but it utilizes a necessary data backup/recovery feature. I wouldn't mess with that just because someone is obsessed with having a certain letter next to their player name. Random matches are a mixed bag, and getting save scummers or downright ****ty players is a fact of online gaming life. The only way to protect yourself is to get in with a squad. If your squad is not kicking out save scummers or people who artificially bloat their rank, find a squad that does or play with friends you know are the real deal. Try a little self help before asking Nintendo to mess with data backups and recovery that will affect everyone.
 

Award

Squid Savior From the Future
Joined
Dec 18, 2015
Messages
1,661
Rank needs to be derived from aggregate play data, rather than a reactionary K factor and player value system. I've gone over that many times, so I won't do it here. The tl;dr is that player rank should be built from statistics on multiple performance indicators gathered over a long period of time rather than W/L.

As for saving rank on Nintendo servers, I don't think so. Save scumming may suck, but it utilizes a necessary data backup/recovery feature. I wouldn't mess with that just because someone is obsessed with having a certain letter next to their player name. Random matches are a mixed bag, and getting save scummers or downright ****ty players is a fact of online gaming life. The only way to protect yourself is to get in with a squad. If your squad is not kicking out save scummers or people who artificially bloat their rank, find a squad that does or play with friends you know are the real deal. Try a little self help before asking Nintendo to mess with data backups and recovery that will affect everyone.
Player data can and should be stored server side, it's a little silly that it's not. That's just Nintendo being cheap with servers. Blizzard has been storing player account data for online multiplier server side since the Diablo II sub-regional Realm servers, specifically to avoid the save summing/hacking that was occurring in D1 and Starcraft at the time. People grumbled and complained that they couldn't use their multiplayer character for LAN matches, but nobody complained about data reliability on the Battle.net servers. I played my data from 2000 again in 2007 or so and it was fine. Most games store character data server-side, including pay-per-month MMOs. It's a lot more secure on their (hopefully) well backed up datacenter servers than our random little WiiU flash drives.

The data backup/recovery isn't all that useful on a WiiU since you can't transfer it to a different console. If your WiiU goes down, your save won't work on your replacement unless it works well enough to do a save transfer. At which point it's better off on your NNID anyway, isn't it? At least Playstation I can copy my saves to a thumb drive and put them on ANY PS4 I log into with my PSN account.

Regardless of ranks, scoring, alts, and allowing players to be carried, there's really zero reason to not have server side character data for an online game mode. If the servers are down, you can't play anyway. Scumming is something that is shockingly 1996 to have existed to begin with.
 

yokokazuo

Inkling Cadet
Joined
May 10, 2015
Messages
173
Location
Alberta, Canada
NNID
NagoyaKazuo
I do think there's a Japan vs. West mentality on rank that creates a different perspective. The west views it like a "title that has been earned" and the Japanese don't seem to.

But I think where it differs greatly from Mario Kart and such is because of the team scoring. It works there because your score is your own, it's what you've demonstrated. Splatoon has a very punitive point system but scores on team results where you may not be the most deciding factor on the team. I think that tends to muddle the ranks a lot more than a team scored on solo ranks. And once the player pools become muddled it drives them to become even more muddled. I also think the matchmaker "rounding the corners" to accomodate the small player pool (B+, A-, A, A+, S all being matched together before 2.6??) in addition to all the carrying/scumming/alts issues has created kind of a mess. Also the VERY small sample size of games that represent one rank creates some chaos. Especially with team rating it should be many more games that measure a rank (much less points for winning/losing.)

I'd love to consistently get games at my skill...but which skill is mine? S, the highest I've earned and I frequently fight in squads? A+ where I seem to land often? A- where I seem to get kicked with frequency? B+ where my alt currently is and seems to be getting identically challenging games as I get in A+? :) That's what's kind of broken now. The rank doesn't actually represent a given skill level at all. It's supposed to, but it seems like it doesn't.
I think I see what you mean. I am currently S+ rank and I do think that most people in S+ lobbies do appear to actually be S+ (I personally see myself somewhat in between since I'm on the low side and may rank down), but while in S rank there were some teammates who didn't always appear to be the rank it said. This was more noticeable for me when I was placed in an A+ lobby which is why I hated when I wasn't in an S only lobby.
I haven't made an alt myself so I can't really judge what lower ranks are like though. Due to there being quite a few people with alts, I didn't want to add to that and so I haven't done so. (I have thought about doing it a few times to learn a different weapon though)
 

モモコ

Inkling Cadet
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
Messages
268
NNID
Momogirl3
I do think there's a Japan vs. West mentality on rank that creates a different perspective. The west views it like a "title that has been earned" and the Japanese don't seem to.

But I think where it differs greatly from Mario Kart and such is because of the team scoring. It works there because your score is your own, it's what you've demonstrated. Splatoon has a very punitive point system but scores on team results where you may not be the most deciding factor on the team. I think that tends to muddle the ranks a lot more than a team scored on solo ranks. And once the player pools become muddled it drives them to become even more muddled. I also think the matchmaker "rounding the corners" to accomodate the small player pool (B+, A-, A, A+, S all being matched together before 2.6??) in addition to all the carrying/scumming/alts issues has created kind of a mess. Also the VERY small sample size of games that represent one rank creates some chaos. Especially with team rating it should be many more games that measure a rank (much less points for winning/losing.)

I'd love to consistently get games at my skill...but which skill is mine? S, the highest I've earned and I frequently fight in squads? A+ where I seem to land often? A- where I seem to get kicked with frequency? B+ where my alt currently is and seems to be getting identically challenging games as I get in A+? :) That's what's kind of broken now. The rank doesn't actually represent a given skill level at all. It's supposed to, but it seems like it doesn't.
You think this is only by chance?

vs
 

Award

Squid Savior From the Future
Joined
Dec 18, 2015
Messages
1,661
I think I see what you mean. I am currently S+ rank and I do think that most people in S+ lobbies do appear to actually be S+ (I personally see myself somewhat in between since I'm on the low side and may rank down), but while in S rank there were some teammates who didn't always appear to be the rank it said. This was more noticeable for me when I was placed in an A+ lobby which is why I hated when I wasn't in an S only lobby.
I haven't made an alt myself so I can't really judge what lower ranks are like though. Due to there being quite a few people with alts, I didn't want to add to that and so I haven't done so. (I have thought about doing it a few times to learn a different weapon though)

I'd agree that S+ is kind of a special case (and was designed as a special case.) The thing with S+ is because it's everybody at the top, fighting only other people at the top, and because every round, someone has to lose, and because of the punishing scoring, the only players that can actually consistently stay in S+ are basically the "best of the best" - the ones that can consistently beat even the other people at the top, and rarely ever lose. So by nature of being the ceiling it will be a much more consistent rank than the others.

That said, I have also seen some awful S+'s. A pair of S+'s on my team that I felt like I was the one carrying them (and we lost to a bunch of A's & an S), the S+ sniper I ran circles around. Snipers I can consistently countersnipe. Which is a little of an echo of my prior post - which rank is my real rank? I KNOW I'm no S+ and never will be, nor did I even intend to be. The good S+s' run absolute circles around me. BUT the fact that I CAN take on and beat some S+s' is interesting. I'm sure they're poor S+ examples...but should I be able to do better than ANY S+? If the brackets were properly separated the answer would be no. Conversely on my B+ alt, I've seen such devastating teams, identical to A+/S/S+ - heck I WISH I could have had some of those B+'s on my team in A+ & S. We'd have dominated! What are they doing there? How did they not move on? But yet there seems to be a large pool of these "top skill" people in B+ that I kept getting parired with them. Lots of alts, so that there's this S meta running within B+ - and it seems like if you're high skill in B+ it just pairs you with other alts in B+. So the high skill people can linger in the lower ranks forever because they're actually playing games mostly at their own skill.

Not to diminish Momo's points on scumming/carrying/alts - but the matchmaker still plays a huuuge role in the chaos by sandbagging good players in lower ranks. I did finally get up to A- on the alt last night, but it was not thanks to anything I did, rather the system finally started giving me "normal B+" matches after the RM rotation came up and I aced through every match landing the KO myself. A huge disparity from the slaughter fests from the prior rotation and the previous nights rotations.

(And FWIW, for those that say "you need to get better and carry your teams in low ranks", it's not that. I was going undefeated as a sniper (k/0) numerous rounds during the B+ losses to teams that played like A+/S. Hard to "git good" if you're already undefeatable while being hunted and posting one of the top k's in the lobby.)

Technically I'm very much against alts and always have been. But I finally broke down and did it after facing SO many alts on my main account and ending up playing too many bad rotations taking me away from S too many times. The lesson I've learned is that I'm starting to question if anyone in B+ actually IS a B+. it seems like the C's are made of noobs & scrubs with some alts passing through. The B's, especially B+ seem to be made predominantly of A and S alts. The A's seem to be made largely of S+ alts (or at least that's who I seem to get paired with.) Through B+ I've seen so many "under lv25" and "under lv20" B+ players (in addition to myself) that it's fairly obvious this is not their first time through... The ones moving through B+ faster than myself (a level 15 B+....) are almost surely S+ based on the "speed run alt levelups" videos. I got to A- at LV20 (though I detoured a bit with some squads that went poorly), so that's kind of a good maker for how fast an A+/S can get through B+. Faster is probably a really good S or an S+. (In the A's I can identify an S+ largely by watching their killcam. I spent a lot of time playing TW and learned to guess their ranks - often I'd check the plaza and my S+ guesses were indeed S+. There's a movement pattern to S+ players unlike any lower rank.


You think this is only by chance?

vs
I'm not sure what produces the disparity there. It could be simply the superior net connections. It could be the mindset. And of course we all know the bulk of the really great players are in Japan (not to say all Japanese players are excellent....I have too many teammates who are Japanese who clearly are the opposite of excellent. Even japanese players can carry the RM backward in A.... :) ) Maybe the Japanese just played more games. It seems like a lot of western players hate TW and play splatfest only for snails whereas a lot of Japanese enjoy it. ABC/Manocheese already said in the other thread he'd have played more if he knew he was close to #1. That difference probably isn't the most conclusive for the actual ranked problems. Though as someone suffering through bad sandcastle round after bad sandcastle round, including some top 100's apparently, I'm not sure WHAT to think!
 

モモコ

Inkling Cadet
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
Messages
268
NNID
Momogirl3
I'd agree that S+ is kind of a special case (and was designed as a special case.) The thing with S+ is because it's everybody at the top, fighting only other people at the top, and because every round, someone has to lose, and because of the punishing scoring, the only players that can actually consistently stay in S+ are basically the "best of the best" - the ones that can consistently beat even the other people at the top, and rarely ever lose. So by nature of being the ceiling it will be a much more consistent rank than the others.

That said, I have also seen some awful S+'s. A pair of S+'s on my team that I felt like I was the one carrying them (and we lost to a bunch of A's & an S), the S+ sniper I ran circles around. Snipers I can consistently countersnipe. Which is a little of an echo of my prior post - which rank is my real rank? I KNOW I'm no S+ and never will be, nor did I even intend to be. The good S+s' run absolute circles around me. BUT the fact that I CAN take on and beat some S+s' is interesting. I'm sure they're poor S+ examples...but should I be able to do better than ANY S+? If the brackets were properly separated the answer would be no. Conversely on my B+ alt, I've seen such devastating teams, identical to A+/S/S+ - heck I WISH I could have had some of those B+'s on my team in A+ & S. We'd have dominated! What are they doing there? How did they not move on? But yet there seems to be a large pool of these "top skill" people in B+ that I kept getting parired with them. Lots of alts, so that there's this S meta running within B+ - and it seems like if you're high skill in B+ it just pairs you with other alts in B+. So the high skill people can linger in the lower ranks forever because they're actually playing games mostly at their own skill.

Not to diminish Momo's points on scumming/carrying/alts - but the matchmaker still plays a huuuge role in the chaos by sandbagging good players in lower ranks. I did finally get up to A- on the alt last night, but it was not thanks to anything I did, rather the system finally started giving me "normal B+" matches after the RM rotation came up and I aced through every match landing the KO myself. A huge disparity from the slaughter fests from the prior rotation and the previous nights rotations.

(And FWIW, for those that say "you need to get better and carry your teams in low ranks", it's not that. I was going undefeated as a sniper (k/0) numerous rounds during the B+ losses to teams that played like A+/S. Hard to "git good" if you're already undefeatable while being hunted and posting one of the top k's in the lobby.)

Technically I'm very much against alts and always have been. But I finally broke down and did it after facing SO many alts on my main account and ending up playing too many bad rotations taking me away from S too many times. The lesson I've learned is that I'm starting to question if anyone in B+ actually IS a B+. it seems like the C's are made of noobs & scrubs with some alts passing through. The B's, especially B+ seem to be made predominantly of A and S alts. The A's seem to be made largely of S+ alts (or at least that's who I seem to get paired with.) Through B+ I've seen so many "under lv25" and "under lv20" B+ players (in addition to myself) that it's fairly obvious this is not their first time through... The ones moving through B+ faster than myself (a level 15 B+....) are almost surely S+ based on the "speed run alt levelups" videos. I got to A- at LV20 (though I detoured a bit with some squads that went poorly), so that's kind of a good maker for how fast an A+/S can get through B+. Faster is probably a really good S or an S+. (In the A's I can identify an S+ largely by watching their killcam. I spent a lot of time playing TW and learned to guess their ranks - often I'd check the plaza and my S+ guesses were indeed S+. There's a movement pattern to S+ players unlike any lower rank.




I'm not sure what produces the disparity there. It could be simply the superior net connections. It could be the mindset. And of course we all know the bulk of the really great players are in Japan (not to say all Japanese players are excellent....I have too many teammates who are Japanese who clearly are the opposite of excellent. Even japanese players can carry the RM backward in A.... :) ) Maybe the Japanese just played more games. It seems like a lot of western players hate TW and play splatfest only for snails whereas a lot of Japanese enjoy it. ABC/Manocheese already said in the other thread he'd have played more if he knew he was close to #1. That difference probably isn't the most conclusive for the actual ranked problems. Though as someone suffering through bad sandcastle round after bad sandcastle round, including some top 100's apparently, I'm not sure WHAT to think!
ABC being in top 5... but lost to this:

his team basically lost a 3 v4 =.=
or maybe 2 v3?
I would enjoy it too if ranks actually meant something =.=

Most high rank snowman where useless =.=
and he still does not know the difference of weapons? calling a mini a heavy? wtf. I know inking turf is important in turf war but whenever someone got close to him he got splatted =.=
 
Last edited:

Award

Squid Savior From the Future
Joined
Dec 18, 2015
Messages
1,661
ABC being in top 5... but lost to this:

his team basically lost a 3 v4 =.=
or maybe 2 v3?
I would enjoy it too if ranks actually meant something =.=

Most high rank snowman where useless =.=
and he still does not know the difference of weapons? calling a mini a heavy? wtf. I know inking turf is important in turf war but whenever someone got close to him he got splatted =.=
LOL...yeah...looks 2v3 to me :p

Yikes (though in fairness, I suppose inking a lot CAN be good...and can be a serious annoyance to the opponent. it can be a good strategy with a team, and the aerospray SHOULD be focusing on inking....but....yeah...I've played a lot of TW and Splatfest with aerosprays....and my play (and k/d) weren't quite....that... :P ) I realize aerospray RG isn't a great killer....but...that's entirely devoid of combat at all. The kind of "good" player that can't be "good" without a team that can cover combat for them. Like the spawncampers that sit there with a paintbrush and rack up kills but if you take away their expert teammate they become trash.

Gonna' be honest, that does NOT look like a clash of S/S+ I've ever seen. My alt battles in B+ yesterday were faaar more intense.
 

sammich

Inkling Cadet
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
267
Location
日本
well, i am an S-rank player, and losing my rank in a reset wouldn't change anything (in my head, i'd still be S-rank because that's the player level where i'm currently meeting my match).

however, i see a rank reset causing more problems than it solves? sure, the high-ranking players would soon kick back up to their high posts, but what about the players at the bottom and the players in mid?

ok, so the bottom players wouldn't see all that much VISIBLY as their rank would stay pretty much the same, but for a while they'd be absolutely crushed by the top players. many would probably just say "splatoon is too hard" and stop playing because it isn't fun. mid players would probably be more upset about losing rank than S and S+ players, because they're already having a really hard time maintaining their rank. the good and the godly know they are where they belong... but to people in B and A-rank (not so much A and A+), many of them feel like they're constantly trying to escape from the randomness of the lower ranks.

S and S+ can, even with the rank reset, use their skill to push above randomness. but below that? they'll basically be riding on luck, trying to break through to clean matches that were already tough for them without the masses of cloaked S and S+ players.

-------------------------

it would be hell for a lot of players,
where the only real problems with the current ranks are a few scummers, which would already be remedied by the first suggestion (i.e. nintendo servers saving the rank info), and squad-carries.
 

モモコ

Inkling Cadet
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
Messages
268
NNID
Momogirl3
What about this? I thought of an idea how to do the reset without clumping people too bad?
Before reset> after
C- to C+ > C-
B- to B+ > B-
A- to A+ > B
S> B+
S+>A-
 

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