Bringing Back OG Bubbler

[isaac4]

I get the concern of this special being too much for Splatoon even if it is just a nerfed version of S1 Bubbler but what if the special duration was also tied to the amount of ink you used during it? This would make it weaker to use as protection during a fight on top of the stronger knockback, slower startup time, and the armor itself shredding from taking enough hits (or even just one depending on the weapons attacking it).
I don't really love the idea since I feel like there's a better answer to it but I do think this would incentivize using the special more supportively around teammates to push in safely rather being an HP shield to take in fights.
Maybe that's too harsh though but I want to know what everyone else here thinks.

 

[OnePotWonder]

I think it’s about as perfect as an armour design can get. The only sticking point is, as you mentioned, its design encouraging more selfish plays than team-oriented ones. I was debating giving the special a distribution stand akin to Tacticooler, but it would have thrown a big wrench into balancing.

We’ve tried invulnerability, we’ve tried HP, and we’ve tried stat boosts, and none of them have really stuck. Since HP had the biggest room for improvement, that’s what I targeted. I do have a much more… experimental idea for a new aggressive/supportive protection special, but that will most definitely require its own thread. Nonetheless, I might as well get to work refining it.

 

[SAMICOM]

I think it’s about as perfect as an armour design can get. The only sticking point is, as you mentioned, its design encouraging more selfish plays than team-oriented ones. I was debating giving the special a distribution stand akin to Tacticooler, but it would have thrown a big wrench into balancing.

We’ve tried invulnerability, we’ve tried HP, and we’ve tried stat boosts, and none of them have really stuck. Since HP had the biggest room for improvement, that’s what I targeted. I do have a much more… experimental idea for a new aggressive/supportive protection special, but that will most definitely require its own thread. Nonetheless, I might as well get to work refining it.

Yea, I feel like breaking it would be like armour breaking in story mode?

I feel like we can collaberate just this once so me, OPW, and Missingno. Don’t go feral

 

[Forma]

Let's compare these two directly from the details you've given. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but:

Bubbler Redux:
- 15f activation (.25s)
- 6s duration
- 100HP (+extra from big hits)
- object damage multipliers apply
- knockback on hit, varies by shot intensity
- (presumably) a larger hitbox
- chains when touched

Ink Armor:
- 30f (.5s) movement lock, 1.5s activation (2s total activation time). SPU can bring total time down to 1s but cannot lower movement lock
- 6s duration (9s max SPU)
- 30HP
- knockback + damage above 100HP pierces up to 80HP
- universally given to all teammates

I don't see how this isn't Ink Armor 2 with more extremes. It doesn't instantly go to your entire team - neat. Even if it basically always means backline won't have it, it's not exactly tough for front and midlines to get close enough to give each other the bubble for a push (assuming that mechanic works like it did in Splatoon 1). Now every weapon in the game needs to deal enough damage to splat twice instead of dealing only 30 extra - but because of object damage multipliers, some will have to deal even more than that? And that's not even mentioning that with that activation time, this is a panic button. Even Trizooka requires more startup time! I can't find frame time for Bubbler activation in 1 and looking back at footage suggests it's instant. 1⁄4 of a second is better than that, sure, but the original version only lasted 4.5 seconds without SDU - something that starts quicker with much more health than Ink Armor that lasts just as long sounds like a huge nuisance, even if it isn't straight-up invincibility.

I simply don't think the new upsides are nearly enough to justify an even more annoying version of Ink Armor with the slight benefits of being able to knock it around and a larger hitbox. You say it's balanced by the fact that every weapon is required to double their TTK to counter it, but that just makes weapons with slow TTKs worse instead of almost universally rendering three classes worse. I guess it's an improvement, but to what end? If you're counting on object damage multipliers to even the playing field, you'll end up either with the slower rapid-fire weapons at a disadvantage (at that universal 0.8x suggested) or functionally giving this thing so much more health to compensate for TTK differences that every weapon hates it equally. Ultimately, I don't see this being fun to engage with at a high level - never mind how infuriating this would be in a casual setting.

If nothing else, doing the legwork for this thread has really given me a deeper appreciation for the work the devs have put in trying to balance the concept game-over-game because it is absolutely hellishly difficult to get the concept right at all, let alone balance it for the competitive and casual side of the playerbase. It's not like Nintendo always gets it right, but going through the update history for all of the shielding specials does paint a clear picture of how we got to where things are today and why they ended up landing on Big Bubbler.

 

[SAMICOM]

Let's compare these two directly from the details you've given. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but:

Bubbler Redux:
- 15f activation (.25s)
- 6s duration
- 100HP (+extra from big hits)
- object damage multipliers apply
- knockback on hit, varies by shot intensity
- (presumably) a larger hitbox
- chains when touched

Ink Armor:
- 30f (.5s) movement lock, 1.5s activation (2s total activation time). SPU can bring total time down to 1s but cannot lower movement lock
- 6s duration (9s max SPU)
- 30HP
- knockback + damage above 100HP pierces up to 80HP
- universally given to all teammates

I don't see how this isn't Ink Armor 2 with more extremes. It doesn't instantly go to your entire team - neat. Even if it basically always means backline won't have it, it's not exactly tough for front and midlines to get close enough to give each other the bubble for a push (assuming that mechanic works like it did in Splatoon 1). Now every weapon in the game needs to deal enough damage to splat twice instead of dealing only 30 extra - but because of object damage multipliers, some will have to deal even more than that? And that's not even mentioning that with that activation time, this is a panic button. Even Trizooka requires more startup time! I can't find frame time for Bubbler activation in 1 and looking back at footage suggests it's instant. 1⁄4 of a second is better than that, sure, but the original version only lasted 4.5 seconds without SDU - something that starts quicker with much more health than Ink Armor that lasts just as long sounds like a huge nuisance, even if it isn't straight-up invincibility.

I simply don't think the new upsides are nearly enough to justify an even more annoying version of Ink Armor with the slight benefits of being able to knock it around and a larger hitbox. You say it's balanced by the fact that every weapon is required to double their TTK to counter it, but that just makes weapons with slow TTKs worse instead of almost universally rendering three classes worse. I guess it's an improvement, but to what end? If you're counting on object damage multipliers to even the playing field, you'll end up either with the slower rapid-fire weapons at a disadvantage (at that universal 0.8x suggested) or functionally giving this thing so much more health to compensate for TTK differences that every weapon hates it equally. Ultimately, I don't see this being fun to engage with at a high level - never mind how infuriating this would be in a casual setting.

If nothing else, doing the legwork for this thread has really given me a deeper appreciation for the work the devs have put in trying to balance the concept game-over-game because it is absolutely hellishly difficult to get the concept right at all, let alone balance it for the competitive and casual side of the playerbase. It's not like Nintendo always gets it right, but going through the update history for all of the shielding specials does paint a clear picture of how we got to where things are today and why they ended up landing on Big Bubbler.

I’m glad a splat 1 vet could give their opinio!

 

[OnePotWonder]

I’m glad a splat 1 vet could give their opinio!

They’re not the only one, though I’ll admit “veteran” would be a gratuitous title for me.

One thing that is most certainly true is that trying to keep things balanced and counterable while also making them feel powerful and fun for the user is an absolute nightmare. There are at most three examples of it being done correctly in the series. That isn’t to say that previous special concepts can’t be reworked in a way that perfects them.

I will admit that Ink Armor is a pretty low bar to beat in terms of special design, and yes this concept is probably a bit flawed. But is it too much to ask that you work with me on this? Offer your ideas for area the special could be toned back? To call this concept unsalvageable would be absurd; I’ve already managed the Making Sure All Weapons Are Equally Affected part of its balance. If need be a rule for carryover damage could be added, though I currently don’t think it’s necessary.

Tell me what you want nerfed, and it may be nerfed. It’ll be infinitely more productive than trying to convince me it’s a bad idea.

 

[OnePotWonder]

I have increased the startup to be more of a weakness. I also slightly lowered the duration. I'm not too worried about it being overly usable as a panic button, but better safe than sorry seems to be the way to go here.