No On-Screen Map

[Pusha]

@Pusha
To be honest, I find it quite bothersome to highlight and answer to every points of your statement, especially since I have to repeat myself. But I'm enclined to do it to clear out my point of view.



Having a mini map in Splatoon actually decrease the skill gap between players if we follow your logic, since players have a lot more ease to localize themselves. Thus, we lose a decent part of thought-processing that goes into map control and situation awareness. Thought-processing and mindgames also adds to the skill gaps and it's important, skill gaps aren't all about direct confrontation and movements.
Having a mini map in regular shooters is necessary, because sounds on their own aren't enough for players to localize non visible foes, it's confusing and it might slow down the pace of the game, or worse, games get stale. On the other hand, Splatoon has pretty visible ink bullets or trail going through the small map, you can see ink everywhere and eventually, it's not your team's ink, and that's probably not a good sign and this place is dangerous. That's basically your alternative to a mini map, and a smart alternative imo.

Stealth is completely pointless if you know an opponent has a good chance of being there in the first place. At least, without a mini map, you can sneak from behind setting yourself up crossing a wall, for example, and that'll possibly work because there won't be a mini map to reveal your plan since your potential target won't see ink being spread in his direction. This adds depth, and depth contributes in creating skill gaps, because the better player knows how to take advantages of options the other player might not expect.



I don't know why you see flanking as a cheap option. I don't see why you must rely on a mini map to prevent being flanked. Actually I see why, it's just blatant lazyness when it comes to covering options.
To me, it just seems like you're the kind of player to whine when someone screws you as you didn't expect it, since the game doesn't clearly show the danger to you. That's just neglecting options, a lack of lucidity, not respecting the possible unfavorable outcomes you might face, even though every hints are shown to indicate you an hostile area, including being near a wall that might hide a player, who can possibly take you off guard a few seconds later.
Having a mini map in that case puts you way too safe. I kinda understand that you prefer direct confrontation, but again, not everything is about this.

Camping more than 10 seconds is useless in Turf war, you can just ignore a camper to focus on areas he or she doesn't cover, which is a lot since weapons range is limited in Splatoon, even for Charger weapons. A camper is definitely a deadweight for his team, and basically free turf to take all around the map.



Good news for you, there's actually a secondary or special weapon that can localize foes for you and all your teammates. It's basically a temporary wallhack.



I disagree, and I already said several times that Splatoon gives you all the visual hints to determine the situation on the map. I'd rather think not being able to acknowledge that is proof of lacking individual awareness. I find myself not having real issues dealing with all this, I always know where I must go, and what I should be aware of approaching certains areas of a map, am I a genius or something ? Probably not.
I also do think the lack of voice chat in public rooms is not as essential and dramatic as overstated by some people, which seems to include yourself.
Serious players will always find a way to communicate with Skype, TS, Mumble or anything else like everytime. If Mario Kart players can, die-hard Splatoon players won't really have any problems dealing with this. The lack of voice chat is still very regrettable for those who really lack options on this matter though, not denying it.

If you still can't take these arguments, then there's no point in continuing this discussion with you, I won't change your mind, you'll still be pissed off by the lack of mini map, even though there's no real concern to have on this aspect, if you put enough efforts playing the game as it should be played.
We'll then just let the meta talk for itself once the game comes out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

First off no, a mini map doesn't decrease skill gap, it just really doesn't -.- a good player will be able to watch his mini map and play at the same time. A good player will be able to flank despite the mini-map that everyone posses. Allowing for more map awareness doesn't decrease the skill gap.
You keep mentioning regular shooters, saying mini maps are necessary because you'd only have sound to rely on... you do realize you can see bullets in pretty much any shooter right? I seriously question your shooter experience if you think that's the only reason they are there. And i remind you that the map already exists in splatoon, its just on the gamepad. Its not something game-breaking, im just pointing out that it would be more beneficial having the map, or a form of the map on the main screen. You can see where your teammates are immediately and it helps map awareness. I again question your shooter experience if you don't think having voice chat in game is important. In many competitive shooters you can search a game in a ranked playlist and have a full team of randoms communicating. Flanking isn't cheap, its a legitimate strategy and a mini map wouldn't eliminate it lol, it would just balance the game and make it appropriately more difficult. Now I'm sorry you got the impression somehow that I get frustrated when I get killed from behind or that i don't have good map awareness. I've been playing shooters for a long time and I'm pretty good at them and i know how to play them. Not saying im the best ever but im not a noob and im sorry you misunderstood my observations for complaints (although i applaud your casual slighting, it can come off as immature, so lets be nice on the forums). I also like the "you don't agree with me means you can't take my arguments and you're dumb" part there at the end, nice touch.

And to clarify, I'm not pissed by the lack of mini-map, just think it's an unfortunate exemption that should have been added.

 

[<π.]

No, what makes any game competitive is a skill gap. No skill gap = No competitive game. Anything that increases that gap is beneficial for competitive and anything that decreases the gap is detrimental to competitive. Giving people some form of mini-map first of all implies everyone has the same map, so it doesn't somehow create unfair situations out of the blue. It also doesn't remove stealth from the game, you can still hide in ink, you can still approach from behind, but it makes it appropriately more difficult.
If you are behind someone and you don't get a kill it is your fault and your fault alone. If they turn and get a kill on you, you screwed up and whether they turned because of a map or team communication or because their magic 8 ball told them too doesn't matter. What mini-maps help with are players camping or hiding or flanking. It makes it more difficult to do those things, which is good because it increases skill gap. It doesn't eliminate playing "smart and good" as you call it, it just makes you also have to have gunskill to earn your kills.

Either a motion sensor within a radius, a mini map with ink or a mini map with shots registering would all add a simple extra layer to the game that would be beneficial to competitive play.

Again, i reiterate, it is largely due to the lack of voice chat that this problem might arise. No opportunity to give callouts online is silly and sucks for competitive because it greatly reduces your ability for map awareness. In other games the mini-map can fill part of the void, but not in splatoon.

And no, unfortunate randomness is another term for "skill gap decreasing".

Playing with "stealth" is just a way for bad players to avoid direct gun fights ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I can't tell if you are joking or not. Look up the definition of competitive, it doesn't talk about skill gaps and and randomness. It talks about competition. If there is a competition then the event by definition is competitive. Don't start this silliness here.

The most competitive sports in the world live and thrive off of random. Poker, for example is WAY bigger than any video game will likely ever be and its a random card game!
Magic the gathering sponsors events with crazy prize pools. Trying to compartmentalize and devalue skills you lack or skills you don't disaprove of doesn't mean they aren't meaningful interesting or as you describe it "competitive". Real high level players use every advantage they have in order to win. They don't whine and complain about the rule sets of their game.

 

[Kosaki]

you do realize you can see bullets in pretty much any shooter right?

You can't accurately estimate if it comes from an ally or an opponent most of the time, unless you clearly sees the player shooting or you know for sure it's not from an ally when there's no mini map. Chances are you won't even pay attention to it, since mini map + sounds are way more reliable as informations.
Because a bullet just looks like any other bullet and nothing prevents foes from being anywhere all around you. Not in Splatoon.

I have some decent experience on PC FPS's, almost none on home consoles. Spent countless hours last year on Red Orchestra 2, a.k.a. the only shooter where I really felt the need of voice chat in public rooms (alongside ArmA II). Played mostly that game, ET:Wolfenstein, CoD4 (Promod), BFBC2, Shootmania at a decent level back then, and played a lot of shooter series casually, that's easily 2000h+ I spent on shooters, will that suffice proving I'm not fraudulent when it comes to this genre ?

I also like the "you don't agree with me means you can't take my arguments and you're dumb" part there at the end, nice touch.

I'm sorry if you thought I was being offensive. That was not my intention. I'm just saying that at this point, if you still reject my arguments, there's no point going further in the discussion, since you seem to believe a lot in what you say. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, I think you're wrong for most part and I'm trying to convince you of that. It seems I won't convince you at all, no matter what.

It's a shame there isn't an on screen map in the game

From OP. That's definitely a significant complaint, that I find unnecessary and overstated, since I strongly believe that it was a pertinent design choice.

And i remind you that the map already exists in splatoon, its just on the gamepad. Its not something game-breaking

I explained you earlier, and others too, how broken it could be, and how it was balanced by staying on the Gamepad. This map is not made for convenience when you're in the middle of the action.

For the rest of your post, I give up, it's pointless losing anymore time answering. I've already said everything I had to say on this topic.
No hard feelings.

 

[Hi_C]

It's kind of unfortunate that the map is only on the gamepad, because that really restricts the controller choices. Like personally, I wish I could play on a Pro controller verses a gamepad because I feel like I could have more precision in shooting. With the map only on the gamepad, it forces you to use it other wise you are missing a key component to map control ex cetra. Not only that, but you wouldn't be able to superjump from a Pro controller. So poor design choice in my opinion.

 

[Pusha]

I can't tell if you are joking or not. Look up the definition of competitive, it doesn't talk about skill gaps and and randomness. It talks about competition. If there is a competition then the event by definition is competitive. Don't start this silliness here.

The most competitive sports in the world live and thrive off of random. Poker, for example is WAY bigger than any video game will likely ever be and its a random card game!
Magic the gathering sponsors events with crazy prize pools. Trying to compartmentalize and devalue skills you lack or skills you don't disaprove of doesn't mean they aren't meaningful interesting or as you describe it "competitive". Real high level players use every advantage they have in order to win. They don't whine and complain about the rule sets of their game.

I'm not whining and complaining about the game. I'm pointing out what seems to be in my eyes a flaw. And yes Skill gap is exactly what makes a video game competitive and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about if you don't think so. If there is absolutely no skill gap in a game then i guarantee that game won't be played competitively or professionally. You can't say that one person is better at rock paper scissors then the other, or that one person is better at bingo than another because there is no skill gap. Skill gap or skill ceiling is something very common and often talked about in gaming and it surprises me you haven't heard of it. If there's nothing that separates a noob from a pro player then there's no skill gap. Smash Bros has a huge skill gap. Put a first time player against mango and he won't get a hit. But put a first time bingo player in a game with anyone and they'll win just as many times because they have the same odds of winning and there isn't a skill gap or there isn't any skill involved. There's a reason it's difficult to make the NHL or the NBA or the MLB or the NFL or any other professional sports league. And you mentioned poker. Yeah it's a game of luck and personally i find it boring and kinda silly that its even on TV, but i respect the fact that some people are better at it than others, that it involves bluffing and reading people and knowing when to call and when to fold and all that creates a skill gap.

And this concept isn't just used in gaming, look up gap analysis. It's simply the gap or difference between actual results and potential and is used in business and finance.

So plz, don't go around saying things you know nothing about.

 

[Pusha]

You can't accurately estimate if it comes from an ally or an opponent most of the time, unless you clearly sees the player shooting or you know for sure it's not from an ally when there's no mini map. Chances are you won't even pay attention to it, since mini map + sounds are way more reliable as informations.
Because a bullet just looks like any other bullet and nothing prevents foes from being anywhere all around you. Not in Splatoon.

I have some decent experience on PC FPS's, almost none on home consoles. Spent countless hours last year on Red Orchestra 2, a.k.a. the only shooter where I really felt the need of voice chat in public rooms (alongside ArmA II). Played mostly that game, ET:Wolfenstein, CoD4 (Promod), BFBC2, Shootmania at a decent level back then, and played a lot of shooter series casually, that's easily 2000h+ I spent on shooters, will that suffice proving I'm not fraudulent when it comes to this genre ?



I'm sorry if you thought I was being offensive. That was not my intention. I'm just saying that at this point, if you still reject my arguments, there's no point going further in the discussion, since you seem to believe a lot in what you say. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, I think you're wrong for most part and I'm trying to convince you of that. It seems I won't convince you at all, no matter what.



From OP. That's definitely a significant complaint, that I find unnecessary and overstated, since I strongly believe that it was a pertinent design choice.



I explained you earlier, and others too, how broken it could be, and how it was balanced by staying on the Gamepad. This map is not made for convenience when you're in the middle of the action.

For the rest of your post, I give up, it's pointless losing anymore time answering. I've already said everything I had to say on this topic.
No hard feelings.

Then why don't we agree to disagree, and if you think that the suggestion of having an on screen mini-map is overstated then you shouldn't be in the thread about the topic. You gave a case for why you think it'd be bad and i gave a case for why i think it'd be good and if we don't agree then we don't agree. gg no re

 

[Yaezakura]

So, in regards to having a map on the main screen... how would you even see it? Seriously, think about it for a second. You have a map showing the state of the stage in real time, meaning it'll be covered in colors... superimposed over the actual game, which will be covered in the same colors. There'd be almost no way to distinguish between the map and the actual battlefield easily. You'd have to focus all your attention on the minimap, which is just as distracting as taking a moment to look down at the GamePad, if not worse.

A map that didn't show ink locations would be useless for this game. Seeing pings for "shots fired" wouldn't even make sense, since the only gun loud enough to really hear from more than a foot away is the chargers. And obviously, just highlighting enemy positions would be detrimental to the game--there's a reason the current map only shows enemies standing in your own ink colors unless you use certain weapons like the Point Sensor and Echolocator.

 

[<π.]

I'm not whining and complaining about the game. I'm pointing out what seems to be in my eyes a flaw. And yes Skill gap is exactly what makes a video game competitive and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about if you don't think so. If there is absolutely no skill gap in a game then i guarantee that game won't be played competitively or professionally. You can't say that one person is better at rock paper scissors then the other, or that one person is better at bingo than another because there is no skill gap. Skill gap or skill ceiling is something very common and often talked about in gaming and it surprises me you haven't heard of it. If there's nothing that separates a noob from a pro player then there's no skill gap. Smash Bros has a huge skill gap. Put a first time player against mango and he won't get a hit. But put a first time bingo player in a game with anyone and they'll win just as many times because they have the same odds of winning and there isn't a skill gap or there isn't any skill involved. There's a reason it's difficult to make the NHL or the NBA or the MLB or the NFL or any other professional sports league. And you mentioned poker. Yeah it's a game of luck and personally i find it boring and kinda silly that its even on TV, but i respect the fact that some people are better at it than others, that it involves bluffing and reading people and knowing when to call and when to fold and all that creates a skill gap.

And this concept isn't just used in gaming, look up gap analysis. It's simply the gap or difference between actual results and potential and is used in business and finance.

So plz, don't go around saying things you know nothing about.

I know a lot about competitive gaming. I've been traveling to smashbrothers events for over 10 years. I've played with and beaten some of the best smashers out there in melee and brawl. Poker is a game that rewards players who understand how to evaluate probability and apply risk to it. A noob will never walk into a poker tournament and win consistently. The same skills come into play when you introduce randomness into any situation. Random doesn't take skill out of the equation it adds new ones to it. That was my point.

If you don't think that probability and risk management are worthwhile or exciting that's fine and completely fair, but to completely dismiss them or right them off as "not real" isn't fair to people who put time into mastering those skills or the people who actually do enjoy seeing these skills played out.

 

[Kosaki]

@Pusha
Having a high progression curve is one thing.
Stating how Splatoon would benefit from a mini map is another thing.
We're discussing it since yesterday, and we've pretty much covered everything about it and our opinions still diverges greatly.

Being able to thought-process the situation on the map, given how Splatoon gives you informations, requires skills. This creates a skill gap.
Having a mini map removes this, more or less. And I don't see how in the world a mini map added in Splatoon would bring a higher skill ceiling compared to that. What I say is that it would rather lessen players' efforts in controlling the flow of a game, because the game eases map controlling too much, skill ceiling then becomes more accessible, and that's fewer skill gaps you get. It even limits options, that's factual, because it prevents foes from approaching you in several manners, like flanking, among other things, because you must spread ink to move in this game, and a mini map kills that by making you more foreseeable. I can also mention for example that a roller can't play as an effective sneaky support in these conditions.

There are 3 main aspects that sets a game up for competition :

• High skill ceiling, so we have skill gaps between players.
• Options, so games don't become stale.
• Community support, so the metagame evolves fast enough over time.

Each of these points is important, the skill ceiling doesn't stomp on the rest.
I do believe the mini map would just affect the first two aspects in a bad way, as I implied it above, limiting the raw competitive potential of the game even if it's just a little bit.
It probably won't break the game completely, but it will be enough to change how we can play it, resulting in a poorer competitive experience imho.

That is my whole point. Please understand it, don't deny it, like I can kinda understand your own statement and where you're coming from, I don't agree with you, and I don't necessarily ask you to agree with me.
I won't continue this discussion further, let's just wait the game's release and see if the meta will be healthy and great enough without a mini map, and I have absolutely no concerns about it.

@Hi_C
As for the lack of pro controller support, Nintendo clearly wants to promote the Gamepad features, can't really blame them for trying to take full advantage of their hardware and its potential. That's what makes Splatoon even more unique. They suppressed an option so we get the best experience possible with the Gamepad and stick with it. I would agree with you about it being a bad design choice if the Gamepad was unbearable or had flows like lack of precision or whatever else, but it's far from being the case. I don't know about dual-stick but gyroscope(+right stick) is gaming mouse-tier.

 

[TheRapture]

I never really found myself having an issue without a map on screen, I was able to look down pretty quickly at times to figure things out. But most of the maps are pretty easy to survey the situation without needing a map at all. It's clearly a deliberate design choice, though I wouldn't be completely honest if I didn't say that having a small mini-map on screen would be a nice addition. Certainly not a necessary one, though.

 

[Pusha]

I know a lot about competitive gaming. I've been traveling to smashbrothers events for over 10 years. I've played with and beaten some of the best smashers out there in melee and brawl. Poker is a game that rewards players who understand how to evaluate probability and apply risk to it. A noob will never walk into a poker tournament and win consistently. The same skills come into play when you introduce randomness into any situation. Random doesn't take skill out of the equation it adds new ones to it. That was my point.

If you don't think that probability and risk management are worthwhile or exciting that's fine and completely fair, but to completely dismiss them or right them off as "not real" isn't fair to people who put time into mastering those skills or the people who actually do enjoy seeing these skills played out.

Theres always an element of randomness in everything, not saying that's bad. But there is definitely a threshold there and regardless of randomness or chance you still need a skill gap. I don't know where you came up with the idea that i think risk management isn't important, and there are probabilities in everything, i didn't write either of those off. I fully said that poker has a skill gap, so i guess you didn't read my post very attentively.
And randomness does take skill out of the equation. It doesn't remove it entirely but it decreases the skill gap. If a game is left entirely up to randomness than no skill is required. So as randomness tends to 100% of a game's elements then the skill required to play said game tends to 0. Yes, randomness might require you to react in a certain way, but that doesn't increase skill gap because randomness will benefit one person over another. An example is bloodshots in halo. Sometimes you get a headshot, see the blood, but the hit doesn't register. It's a glitch, an unfortunate one, and it results in people missing kills or dying sometimes. You need to react to it when it happens and adjust but that still doesn't mean that skill gap is increased because of the glitch.

Maybe my labeling of randomness above was slightly exaggerated but regardless, randomness reduces skill gap

And also, you can very good at a game competitively without understanding what makes a game competitive.

 

[Kosaki]

Maybe my labeling of randomness above was slightly exaggerated but regardless, randomness reduces skill gap

"Randomness" as you label it is controlled in Splatoon dude.

• Inked turf that's not your color screams a foe is nearby
• Ink shots yells it, it even reveals their exact position, and ink is always being spread because you need to spread ink to do everything
  
• Enemies can't be on your ink, you know you're completely safe being surrounded by your own ink

Knowing that, you cover options, you avoid being near a paintable wall or bad corners to avoid getting flanked, or else prepare a reaction, spreading your ink on the other team's turf you're making sure not getting surprised by a hiding foe, and you end up having full control on possible outcomes and it eventually gives you the upper hand when you'll face an opponent. They might be as smart as you though. Covering options is not randomly guessing, it's about getting the opponent cornered with certainty.
Lacking informations would have implied some pure "randomness" in situations, being in the blind, but we're not lacking those at all.

 

[Pusha]

"Randomness" as you label it is controlled in Splatoon dude.

• Inked turf that's not your color screams a foe is nearby
• Ink shots yells it, it even reveals their exact position, and ink is always being spread because you need to spread ink to do everything
  
• Enemies can't be on your ink, you know you're completely safe being surrounded by your own ink

Knowing that, you cover options, you avoid being near a paintable wall or bad corners to avoid getting flanked, or else prepare a reaction, spreading your ink on the other team's turf you're making sure not getting surprised by a hiding foe, and you end up having full control on possible outcomes and it eventually gives you the upper hand when you'll face an opponent. They might be as smart as you though. Covering options is not randomly guessing, it's about getting the opponent cornered with certainty.
Lacking informations would have implied some pure "randomness" in situations, being in the blind, but we're not lacking those at all.

I didn't refer to those things as being random, and im not arguing with those things. They are all very evident and i don't know why you keep repeating them. Yes they are all visual queues for enemies being there. You are misinterpreting my opinion and as stated above randomness was perhaps the wrong label in that case.

 

[Kosaki]

Oh, then nevermind, I was just making sure.

 

[sniper]

I like this idea, an on-screen mini map to supplement the full gamepad map would be fantastic. I find myself "peripheral vision" checking my mini map in other shooters all of the time, and it works great.

They could just make it a toggleable option for people that don't want it.

 

[Hi_C]

So, in regards to having a map on the main screen... how would you even see it? Seriously, think about it for a second. You have a map showing the state of the stage in real time, meaning it'll be covered in colors... superimposed over the actual game, which will be covered in the same colors. There'd be almost no way to distinguish between the map and the actual battlefield easily. You'd have to focus all your attention on the minimap, which is just as distracting as taking a moment to look down at the GamePad, if not worse.

A map that didn't show ink locations would be useless for this game. Seeing pings for "shots fired" wouldn't even make sense, since the only gun loud enough to really hear from more than a foot away is the chargers. And obviously, just highlighting enemy positions would be detrimental to the game--there's a reason the current map only shows enemies standing in your own ink colors unless you use certain weapons like the Point Sensor and Echolocator.

Why can't it have like a circle background with the map being shown in real time? I really don't think it would be that hard to do to be honest. It just seems silly to force you to look down which is totally away from the gameplay.

 

[Trieste Sp]

A minimap on the screen would be nice but I feel the map on the gamepad is enough. All it takes is just a quick glace at it.