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Peeking Techniques & why Saltspray is unsuitable for competitive play.

Discussion in 'Competitive Discussion' started by flc, Oct 6, 2015.

  1. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Inkling

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    While I agree that the west side on rig is slightly easier to snipe from than the east, I don't see how it makes the entire map uncompetitive because of it.

    This discussion revolves around the idea that someone is able to play a charger perfectly enough to the point where they are so good that the winner is already predetermined by the start of the match. And as far as I know, no one like that exists. There's too many things to take into account for this to actually matter such as weapon composition, overall team skill, change of tactics or adaptations made from either team, etc.


    This discussion just becomes a bunch of theory crafting when we don't have some tournament matches or something to analyze. If anything, I only see this having a slight impact only during the beginning of a match.
     
    Ryuji and BarneyLTD like this.
  2. UnLucky

    UnLucky Semi-Pro Squid

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    So you looked through all the images in the first post and you can proudly say that you can bomb someone there without them shooting you first?

    The whole problem is it's easier to do that from one side than the other. "Just bomb them" requires differing amounts of effort depending on which side of the map you spawn.

    If the enemy can right-side peek, then you may not even realize they're there to even bomb them at all. And then they can move to one of many other spots where they can also right-side peek. Even if you know where they are, they have wide coverage and can see you coming much easier.

    Conversely, if they were on the other side, they would either not be able to right-side peek at all, leaving them more vulnerable to all types of attacks, including sub weapons as you propose, or they're in one of very few spots where they can right-side peek, which you can predict much more readily than the other side.

    No matter what strategy you come up with to counteract this advantage, the side that can right-side peek can use it at least as well, if not better, so it doesn't actually help.
     
    Munchy and SupaTim like this.
  3. Flammie

    Flammie Inkling Cadet

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    I simply don't care if i'm on the left or right side of Saltspray as i have wins and losses equally on whatever side i'm spawning from.
    Analyzing who's side has a bigger benefit is just gonna mentally bog me down in the end, so i just roll with what is working for me.
    I get splatted, i splat the guy anyway, i maintain a status quo from that, getting turf, splash zone, tower or the rainmaker going forward.
    I don't just use my eyes, i have my ears and my thoughts and assumptions to go with, if i know people would use "that" spot to peek or ambush me from, i'd try throw a bomb as early as i can, from either a safe spot or just ham it, crashing down on those who think they are safe, or don't think they can get ambushed panic really easy, or just don't know what to do.
    I think i might be the only person who thinks like this in the entire community, i'm not troubled with "peekers" at all, i'm more worried about openfield snipers.
     
  4. flc

    flc Inkling Commander

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    there's so much wrong with this post

    first of all, there are charger players who can abuse this advantage. I'm one, and I'm pretty sure most top teams have a charger player capable of abusing this. and even if western chargers weren't good enough to take advantage of this, just because you don't know any chargers who can doesn't mean they don't exist now or won't in the future.

    second, if the map outcome is predetermined, that implies that the western side has a 100% win rate. this is clearly not true, and nobody in their right minds would insist otherwise (which is probably why nobody actually is insisting otherwise). this does not mean that an advantage of, say, 70% is somehow acceptable. any significant bias toward one side can and does make a map competitively nonviable.

    third, saltspray is one of the strongest maps for elitres as it is, given how many options they have and how easy it is for an elitre to lock down the entire map. this much will not be disputed by just about anyone who plays this game competitively. a significant advantage for one team's elitre will greatly affect the map's balance, and that's precisely what we have (and then some).

    fourth, if there are too many things to take into account, how will we ever come to any meaningful decision? if a car's engine is on fire, we don't need to examine the exhaust system before acknowledging that something needs to be done about it. elitres dominate this map, and no matter how you get your elitre set up or how you deal with them outside using your own, the west side advantage will always be a factor.

    fifth, we do have tournament matches to examine. I even gave an example of one in the OP, which you evidently did not read. future tournaments and scrims can be analysed further when teams take advantage of the western spawn.

    sixth, your analysis of how this will affect matches still implies that an unfair advantage is given to one side of the map over the other, which is generally the basis for every single competitive ruleset in everything there ever was.
     
    polysaw and GeneraLight like this.
  5. Icky

    Icky Inkster Jr.

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    I think your post is excessively ignorant of just how important an elite sniper is in Splatoon. In the recent Nintendome GF, the battle between each teams sniper (E-liter vs E-liter or Splatterscope) was often the match-up that decided who won (see the Flounder Heights game played in that GF, in spite of SRB2Dude's dominance, the opposition's Splatterscope annihilated the rest of his team and Dude's team lost that game because their sniper went 2-4 for KD I think)
     
  6. Power

    Power Inkling Commander

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    Right side peeking provides an advantage for the team on the west side. It really is simple as that. Providing methods for how to defeat the right side abuse just shows how the other side needs to do more to circumvent the disadvantage. In tournaments we want an even playing field as much as possible, and something like this just completely goes against that. As stated earlier, right side peeking provided an advantage in the IM and SS-C match during ink or sink. Now that this information is more known, I could see this being abused more often. Also people are making attacking the person who right side peeks much easier than it sounds. In an organized match you won't be getting all the time in the world to just spam bombs at the charger and even than, there are other spots to pick from. The other team wouldn't have to worry as much about bombing the other side to keep the charger at bay.

    Whether or not you have been affected by it, the advantage is still clearly there and in high level tournament play, creates what many would view as an unfair advantage.

    Edit:
    Alright, I will just counter your ambush with burst bombs or a snipe, as early as I can. I out range you and have better positions to attack from. Very easy to see and stop such a thing coming as a sniper. Especially as you are heading directly into enemy territory, would you even be able to get past my teammates? It is very easy to just make up such situational things, ignoring other variables. You have to consider high level play when arguing about this kind of thing. Even in S rank solo queue, which isn't such a great level to begin with, the actions you outlined usually do not fly. (Although I wouldn't be surprised if they do...)
     
    #66 Power, Oct 14, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2015
    Demiose and GeneraLight like this.
  7. Icky

    Icky Inkster Jr.

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    I don't understand the resistance to FLC's case for banning this map. We have 11 other maps to pick from that all work fine (with one more on the way very soon), so why can't we simply ban one for the purpose of removing of a competitive disadvantage from Splatoon. The positives of banning SR far outweigh the negatives of players no longer being able to abuse this advantage or those who simply want to disagree for the hell of it.

    Think of it this way, the benefit of not banning Saltspray Rig is to keep SR in the rotation for tournament. This only benefits two people:

    1. Those who secretly wish to abuse this knowledge to win games more easily; and
    2. Those who think Saltspray is a great map for ranked matches.

    The first group of people shouldn't be catered to. Even if they end up on the bad side, they have an advantage in that they know what the enemy sniper is likely to be doing (because anyone given an opportune advantage will always take advantage of it, it's our instincts).

    The second group of people should also not be catered to because this isn't about "being fun" or "I like Saltspray so it should stay" or "Nintendo's devs couldn't possibly have made a mistake." This is competition, it's about fair and equal play for all involved, just because 1 or even 1,000 people think something should stay doesn't mean it should, and Nintendo's devs have made plenty of mistakes in online games (*cough* Smash imbalances, Kraken, Ninja Jump and Squid yada yada etc).
     
    Summerlycoris and Nucleose like this.
  8. SquiliamTentacles

    SquiliamTentacles Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    As a person who loves Saltspray Rig, I clearly understand why this could be a problem. Yes, it only has a small effect on gameplay, but neither side should have even the slightest advantage based on map position. I don't think this strategy would lead to the west side winning a significant number of games, but it does skew the data. Besides, although it may not appear in tournaments, I don't think it will affect normal Ranked or Regular battles. I can still have as much fun there in Turf War but know that the competitive scene is more balanced (Things like weapon accuracy and gear rolls have no solution yet)
     
  9. Flammie

    Flammie Inkling Cadet

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    If you stand on your teams sniping point into the middle section of the map, then yes, it would be very difficult or downright impossible for me to bomb you, as you can't "peek" while standing up there do you, you would of course stand where nobody can reach you.
     
  10. Phlox

    Phlox Senior Squid

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    That's fine, you're perfectly fine to do whatever you want. However, this mindset about thinking for yourself is only useful if you're in (and, to be honest, only originates from) Solo queue. In a competitive environment, teams would coordinate to push or defend, and the Charger is an essential part of that. The west side has many more spots to right-peek than the east side (allowing for unpredictability) and better spots to right-peek than the east side (allowing for effectiveness). Furthermore, (as said earlier) if that team wins, doubt will be cast over if they won due to sheer skill or that they won due to abusing an unfair advantage that just so happened to be because they spawned on the right side of the map (or, left, I guess).
     
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  11. MasterYoshidino

    MasterYoshidino Inkster Jr.

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    Using subs to deter peeking only gets you so far. You still have to expose your hitbox more to throw around an edge to your left. This especially matters with Burst Bombs as you will more likely hit a wall trying to throw to your left than your right.
     
    Icky likes this.
  12. Zombie Aladdin

    Zombie Aladdin Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    I was guided to this topic when I asked in another section about why Saltspray Rig seems to have mostly disappeared from Ranked (and I take it that what you guys are discussing is why--this is Nintendo's response to it, I suppose). I am nowhere near the level of skill needed to take advantage of peeking, but what piqued my curiosity was the idea of removing anything from competitive play in any game that provides an advantage for one player without a compensating advantage for another. I've played or have spectated other games with competitive scenes where certain factors ARE kept where one player has some kind of advantage over another without any control over it (hence, fighting games are excluded, for instance, because players choose their characters--if you're playing in a Street Fighter tournament and you choose Dan and lose, it was your own fault). I'll list two that come to mind:

    1. Chess. It's been proven that white has an advantage through it going first. The consensus is that this first turn allows white to immediately put pressure on black, which builds as a game goes on. That being said, there are some top-level chess players who specialize in chess-judo, reacting to their opponent's moves and countering them, but they're rare, and predominantly, if given a choice, a chess player in a major competition will choose white. Although white's win-rate is currently only at about 54%, there's been a very slow but steady upwards trend over time of white winning. It's worth mentioning that there are a handful of opening moves for white that will cause black to win early on, however, the most famous being the Fool's Mate. I think it's also worth mentioning that a similar imbalance is present in Go, which is why the player who goes second begins with 6 1/2 points while the player who goes first begins with 0.
    2. Pinball. Yes, competitive pinball exists, and yes, there are people good enough to get the ball exactly where they want to be. Whereas in chess, whoever goes first gets the advantage, in pinball, whoever goes last gets the advantage. In multiplayer, each person plays at the machine until he or she drains the ball, and the next player goes up, and this cycles until every player has drained their last ball; whoever has the highest score at that point wins. Now, even the simplest pinball machines have multiple approaches to scoring: There are high-scoring but risky strategies, and there are low-scoring but safe strategies. Every player except the last has to give it their all, doing everything they can to score and seizing every opportunity that comes their way. The player in last, however, merely has to look at the difference between his or her score and that of the person in the lead. If it's low, the last player can easily win by using the low-scoring but safe strategies. Obviously, the player who goes last is the only one who can afford to do that, and as a result, in major competitions with top players, the last position has the highest win rate (though this is much harder to calculate as there aren't always 4 people to a machine). In other words, the player who goes last has an incredible information advantage over the other players.

    Neither of these imbalances have prevented either of these games from being competitive, and in both cases, a very sprawling tournament structure has popped up around them. That is, top competitive chess players and top competitive pinball players know about these advantages but don't really worry about them too much.

    Of course, this also depends on how much of an advantage players who begin in those positions have compared to the advantage of Saltspray Rig participants who begin on the left. I can't imagine it can be that overwhelming. Though it does explain why Nintendo has released only rotationally symmetrical maps.
     
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  13. UnLucky

    UnLucky Semi-Pro Squid

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    Interesting take, and I think that's a fair assessment. There are certainly a lot more ways to gain an advantage over other players in Splatoon, and balance tweaks don't always catch them. It's absurd to expect perfect balance across all players, weapons, and abilities unless every single aspect is completely identical. But the goal is to get reasonably close, to a point where those involved can agree that it's fair enough.

    For Chess, or any turn based game, somebody has to go first. There's no avoiding that unless you play an entirely different game. The problem with trying to counteract this advantage, if it is indeed considered one at all, is that you can't simply undo it since there's nothing to stop White from going first short of Black doing so instead. The degree of bias has to be carefully measured so that any attempt at making up for it isn't either still not enough, or way too much to skew things towards the other side. Like if White started with one less piece than Black, that could cost them much more than 4% of matches.

    For something like Pinball, or even how Baseball can end at a half-inning because the game is already decided no matter what happens, it's not like there's an advantage from start to finish, or that it's easier for one side to score points than anyone else. The last player still has to play the same game and score the most points to win. It's just on their last turn that they might have less pressure. They also might not, since there could be a huge gap, but that makes it no different from any other turn. If said advantage was widely considered to be significant, perhaps the players' scores could be hidden from each other on the final round. But whoever decides the rules hasn't deemed that necessary, and the players themselves are apparently fine with the ruling.

    So that takes us back to Splatoon, and Saltspray Rig. How big of an advantage is it? Is it a known difference between the sides that can be played against, boosting one's average win rate by less than 5%? Is it a severe handicap that not only affects the very start of the match and any strategies and counters that naturally result from an initial disparity, but also each and every moment of the game no matter how much the opposing side gains over the more fortunate one?

    Like, let's say Black's chess pieces couldn't ever move to the left. They can move up, right, down, and any diagonals in between like normal, just not left. White, however, has fully functional pieces as we've all come to know it. This would obviously be an incredibly blatant disadvantage that nobody would ever allow in a competitive setting, as even if White is down several pieces, Black could actually be closer to losing.

    Is the wall peaking thing quite as bad? Probably not. Maybe it's more like setting up your pieces differently, like both rooks on the same side, which makes certain strategies straight up impossible, while others couldn't be done otherwise. People think it's weird, but sounds fair on paper, so they roll with it. Until they find out that one of these strategies can be abused without any possible counter from the other side specifically due to this unique setup.
     
    Zombie Aladdin likes this.
  14. scarth

    scarth Senior Squid

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    Directed at the 2 posters above me
    Im sure I dont need to ask this but do you really, honestly believe that Nintendo cares about what a handful of people on a western splatoon community forum have to say
     
  15. MakesDream

    MakesDream Inkling Cadet

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    Or just use an rb and rid the sniper of their peek advantage ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    In all seriousness, one team randomly having an advantage isn't any good. however there may also be certain factors that detract from this advantage we aren't aware of. For example, right side peeking shouldn't encourage you to snipe only from places where it's possible, however some other players might be tricked into thinking this way, which MIGHT in turn harm there sniping game. The only way to justify banning this stage is through statistical research, we need to record the number of times in tournament that spawning on the left seems to give that team a win, when they otherwise might not have. I'm no statistics genius but I happen to rather like saltspray and believe that we shouldn't ban it until after extensive testing.
     
  16. MissingNumbers

    MissingNumbers Inkling Commander

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    Technically it isn't even random. The Alpha team always spawns on the right side and the Bravo team always spawns on the left side.
     
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  17. Wiebenjijzeg

    Wiebenjijzeg Full Squid

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    Wow, didn't know this. That would also mean that blasters (especially the long range ones) are heavily favoured in this map on the west side, as they shoot in straight lines as well.
     
  18. Chhipz

    Chhipz Semi-Pro Squid

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    To say an entire map is broken competitively because of some shot angles is frivolous and vastly blowing it out of proportion. Yes E-litre is good on Saltspray, but there are plenty of other team compositions that also work to counter them. Small competitive advantages will always exist with certain combinations of weapons, maps, and game modes. It's part of the game, so learn to adjust.

    We should also ban Summoner's Rift since blue side has a higher win rate.
     
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  19. Of Moose & Men

    Of Moose & Men Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    Adjust to having no idea the best weapon in the game has you in their sights? AKA Literally incapable of reacting to being targeted.
     
  20. MissingNumbers

    MissingNumbers Inkling Commander

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    You're suggesting that the E-Liter hasn't done this since the beginning of always.
     

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