Rebalancing All Rollers

[OnePotWonder]

The roller class is an incredibly mixed bag, having light weapons, heavy weapons, meta weapons, and bottom tier weapons. Figuring out how to balance the class would have been a chore, if not for one useful tidbit given to us by the developers:

"The Splat Roller represents the roller class of weapons that excel at close combat and inking turf."​

-Sheldon Shellendorf​

​

The intention of the roller class is for them to be close-range fighters, and strong painters. This is made evident enough by the more recently introduced members of the class; Flingza Roller and Big Swig roller are both clearly designed to be paint supports. Those of you who know me know that I love the support roller archetype, so obviously I will be expanding upon it with horizontal flick paint buffs to other rollers.
But then, I hear you question, what about the rollers that are already good? Carbon Roller, Splat Roller? Reducing their main weakness would most certainly make them too powerful. You didn't think those buffs came for free, did you? While I do like the support rollers, I can't say the same about the sharking, slinking slayer rollers. The problem I generally have with the roller class is simple: Their horizontal flick one-shot hitboxes are far too generous. So, that will be where I take my compensation. Without further ado:

Carbon Roller
Range at which horizontal flicks do 100 damage reduced by 20%
Horizontal flick paint increased by 30%
Slightly narrowed vertical flicks' collision detection with enemy players

Starting off hot with Carbon Roller, the biggest nuisance in the class. I'll be upfront, I absolutely despise the consistency buffs that this weapon got in the 8.1.0 patch. You can't react to a Carbon roller in the time it takes them to execute a flick, so their flicks should be hard to hit. The nerfs/reversions to lethal range and flick hitbox are compensated by a paint buff to make the weapon less of a liability to solo queue comps with low paint. Carbon was fine before its buffs. It will be fine again.

Splat Roller
Range at which horizontal flicks do 100 damage reduced by 10%
Horizontal flick paint increased by 20%

Splat Roller gets a simpler, less drastic version of Carbon's rework. It currently has plenty of one-shot range to spare and very underwhelming paint. What with it being a sharking weapon, the lethal range difference won't be devastating for it, and the paint buff will slightly improve its special output to compensate. Still a strong slayer, but now also functional as a secondary support.

Dynamo Roller
Range at which horizontal flicks to 100 damage reduced by 10%
Horizontal flick paint increased by 20%
Minimum vertical flick damage increased from 40 to 60

Rinse and repeat; with Dynamo Roller getting nearly identical changes to Splat Roller, alongside a much-needed sniping buff for the weapon's vertical flicks. The lower lethal range does a lot to make the weapon less irritating with regard to random horizontal flick one-shots over uneven terrain, and to compensate, the weapon's paint is finally fixed, once and for all. I see this version of Dynamo being a marked improvement from what we currently have in the game, both for those using it and those fighting it.

Flingza Roller
Range at which horizontal flicks to 100 damage reduced by 10%
Horizontal flick paint increased by 60%
Minimum vertical flick damage increased from 40 to 45

Permutations and combinations, more of the same for Flingza Roller. (I promise it will get interesting with Big Swig.) Flingza is the first roller I've been actively playing, and let me tell you, the horizontal flick paint of this weapon is possibly the most pathetic thing in this game. An Angle Shooter probably paints better on average. As important as its horizontal is even compared to other rollers, I for one would gladly sacrifice a chunk of lethal range for actually reasonable paint. The extra vertical flick damage is an added bonus, because why not?

Big Swig Roller
Maximum horizontal flick damage increased from 70 to 75
Minimum vertical flick damage increased from 40 to 45 (with scaling)

Finally, Big Swig Roller. Two quintessential buffs to make the weapon much stronger. First of all, 75 damage on the weapon's horizontal flicks lets it combo off of the damage of 28 damage weapons, Heavy Edit, and Dousers, making it a much better janitor. Secondly, better minimum damage and scaling on its vertical flicks, officially giving it the strongest vertical flick in the class. Big Swig's dynamic of having an easy-to-hit 40 damage hitbox and precise, long-range vertical flicks easily make it the most interesting roller to fight with, and fight against. After these changes, all it needs is a decent kit.


Thanks for taking the time to read through this. Do you agree with my vision? Or do you have your own ideas? Feel free to share feedback.
The next thread will, of course, be covering chargers. I have some interesting ideas regarding how to balance the backline ones.
From now 'til midnight, have a wonderful day!

 

[Vidknight]

Hey when that roller main guy with the dumb daffy duck PFP going to respond?
.
.
Wait a minute...

Alright this is just first impression but I can see the idea behind these changes, I'm just not in full support of some of these so I guess I just go in order of the weapons like you did. Fair warning I'm not the best at organizing my thoughts so if you have any questions or something I said wasn't clear feel free to ask.


Carbon roller
Yea I don't really like this change at all. One question I have is why do carbon horizontal swing need to be nerf in the first place? Sure the sharking potential is strong, but so is every other roller (Except for swig) It's just a strength of the class. The changes you listed here was to make the strength and weaknesses less extreme which is fair, but we bring in another problem where the horizontal flick is just way more weaker than the vertical flick. There is also another problem with how is carbon going to compete with splat roller it has more range, better damage, and now better paint. I'm sorry if I'm asking a lot of question, but I just truly don't see how carbon is going to be good after these changes I just don't see it competing against any other rollers now. This is not to say that I think that carbon shouldn't be nerf I honestly be fine with the vertical flick being toned back a bit.

Splat roller
30 percent range decrease for better paint. The effective range is worse which I don't like at all because now there are more times where you flick can just not kill because you are a little bit to far away and thus make it less fun to play. But I can honestly live with it kind of. what I don't like is the buff to the paint. There is this misconception that roller have a hard time getting special, that's wrong roller actually does a decent job at getting special and now we're indirectly buffing it. Now imagine more situation in a match where a roller pop a bubble behind you and now you have to deal with. This change might of made roller more annoying for some people to fight against. To me this change made roller less annoying in sharking (I don't find it annoying, but I know some people do), but more annoying in bubble spam in my opinion. Truth be told I believe that splat doesn't need any changes as it already fine

Dynamo roller
Dynamo is honestly the least deserving weapon of a lethal range nerf in my eyes. There is not really a problem with dynamo range the weapon is slow enough where a lot of people can react to dynamo flicking and the random terrain kills you mention is not really all to common to the point where dynamo needs a range lethal range nerf. The paint and vertical damage buffs are fine though

Flingza roller
Again like dynamo I like the buffs on it the lethal range nerf is just strange. There never was any problem with flingza horizontal range in fact it's one of the least complained about horizontal range from what I seen. Nerfing it is just nerfing something that nobody really had a problem with. Also it's weird that the supportive roller have a farther lethal one shot than the slaying rollers

Big swig roller
These changes on the weapon are fine, but from my time hanging around big swig mains (Yes they exist) one of the biggest problem they have with the weapon is the vertical hitbox. It's way to thin the weapon has good poking capabilities, but it struggle incredibly hard at hitting one shots when it desperately needs too. I would say buff the vertical hitbox by about 30% (Rough estimate) that and give it a kit with a sub weapon that actually help the weapon.

Again I should mention I'm not the best at commuincating my thoughts about balance changes so if something seems unclear let me know and I try my best to explain it. Overall while there are some changes I like there are others that seems more questionable especially carbon changes.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Good to start with feedback from a roller player.

There is also another problem with how is carbon going to compete with splat roller it has more range, better damage, and now better paint. I'm sorry if I'm asking a lot of question, but I just truly don't see how carbon is going to be good after these changes I just don't see it competing against any other rollers now.

That was kind of my intention. After Carbon's hitbox and damage scaling buffs, it felt like the weapon became half as difficult, like it really didn't belong in high tier anymore. Granted, I could have just reverted those buffs, but that doesn't leave room for my own paint buffs. The overarching idea is to make Carbon competition for the short-range support role currently dominated by shooters. Make it a miniature Big Swig instead of a miniature Splat Roller. Shatter its old, unsavory identity.

Though you have a point about Roller painting better than it being a problem.

There is this misconception that roller have a hard time getting special, that's wrong roller actually does a decent job at getting special and now we're indirectly buffing it.

I wasn't sure about Roller's paint buff since my mental image of the weapon's flicks weren't exactly super light on paint. I think both the nerf and buff for Roller could be toned back a decent bit.

Dynamo is honestly the least deserving weapon of a lethal range nerf in my eyes. There is not really a problem with dynamo range the weapon is slow enough where a lot of people can react to dynamo flicking and the random terrain kills you mention is not really all to common to the point where dynamo needs a range lethal range nerf.

The lethal area of Dynamo's flicks is massive, and in that, it can often feel like said flicks are impossible to avoid. Though I agree that the nerf there could also probably stand to be shaved down.

Also it's weird that the supportive roller have a farther lethal one shot than the slaying rollers

I genuinely didn't realize Flingza and vRoller had the same range until I looked it up in wake of this comment. I always thought it had slightly less range. Seems the dominoes are tumbling down, because it does indeed not make sense for this thing to have better lethal range than Splat Roller, so it'll have to receive the same diminished nerf. Not that I'm complaining, it's just that I'm a bit worried about overtuning this thing, what with how it usually ends up playing. Though on that same note giving it significantly less horizontal range will probably only encourage paint spam...

I would say buff the vertical hitbox by about 30% (Rough estimate)

NO.
No, no, no. Absolutely not.
See, this is the problem, this is what I hate. People have difficulty with hitting a weapon's attacks and they ask for buffs that make it easier instead of stronger. Always looking for the easy way out instead of being willing to put in the effort of getting better at aiming or ink management or what have you. Big Swig's thin vertical flick is the one thing that makes it so much better than other rollers, I am never going to increase its width. My vertical flick buff is what should happen, making the flick more powerful, not less difficult. This comes directly from possibly the biggest Big Swig lover.

It definitely needs a better kit, though, be it through buffs or bombs.

 

[solz]

seem very balanced Left me very happy

 

[Algae]

Feels to me like the "sharking, slinking" archetype is necessary for rollers to exist. Splat Roller and even slower ones exemplify this, via attacks up small ledges and the shorter-range flick being less aim-intensive. Carbon Roller's horizontal flick doesn't seem much harder for a human to react to, though, but the ability to quickly combo with some sub weapons is a cool standout factor.

 

[Vidknight]

Good to start with feedback from a roller player.

yey


Also a point about swig. I feel that it was a little disengenious for me to say that it was a lot of swig mains. I only really saw 2 in a big swig discord server that is mostly dead and was so truth be told I'm not even sure about how many swig mains care about the vertical hitbox. Although siwg needing a better kit is agreed upon by everybody and I mean everybody. even more casual splatoon players

This comes directly from possibly the biggest Big Swig lover.

Not trying to be rude or downplay here, but I seen swig mains who plays nothing, but swig. They are on a next level dedication to a weapon possibly even more than hydra mains for their weapon and that's saying something.

ANYWAY back on topic with balance. The changes you listed in your response is pretty good. just want to touch on carbon and flingza

Carbon roller
I can see the vision here another supportive roller that focus on paint. But every time I try to think about it I always come back to the same 2 conclusions both of which i'm not a fan of. Either A the weapon plays for zooka for a majority of the time which is not fun for the carbon player nor the enemy team constantly having to avoid a cross map death bomb.
B carbon gets outclassed by shot since it's also a supportive paint weapon with zooka and can fit into more comps. Carbon does have an advantage over shot which is a cheaper PFS and having a burst bomb which can combo with other weapons, but it leaves the questions is it enough for this changed carbon to compete with shot? I kind of don't see it even as a secondary support since there is other secondary supports with powerful specials that can fit into more comps and is less niche.
Trust me I'm a big fan of more non-shooter supports (Big reason why I want swig, dynamo, dread, ETC to be good). It's the one role I have the biggest problem with since there is a lack of diversity in other weapon class except the one oddball every now and than which right now is flingza and zimi.
But I'm still not 100% sold on carbon although I see the vision

Flingza roller
Yea I don't blame you for not knowing that it has the same horizontal range as splat in game flingza look so much more shorter than splat, but the stats says otherwise. I remember when I first learned about it my thought was "WHAT DO YOU MEAN THAT IT'S THE SAME RANGE AS SPLAT?!?!?!".
Also your bring up a great point I didn't even think about will nerfing the horizontal range of flingza make it more of a special spammer. Flingza always had this stereotype ever since its foil kit in splat 2 where it just sat back and spammed special and for the first time it started to slowly break out of that sterotype and we don't want it to go back to its special spamming ways.
This also brings in the question about foil kit in this game it play more aggressively with screen so it brings in another question about will flingza still synergise and work with screen or will it just have not use.

I should mention again that the other rollers I'm pretty ok with I can see it working and being healthy and fun to play.

Also this is the first time in my squidboard account where I actually started to type of long responses that communicate my ideas. feels good

 

[DzNutsKong]

NO.
No, no, no. Absolutely not.
See, this is the problem, this is what I hate. People have difficulty with hitting a weapon's attacks and they ask for buffs that make it easier instead of stronger. Always looking for the easy way out instead of being willing to put in the effort of getting better at aiming or ink management or what have you. Big Swig's thin vertical flick is the one thing that makes it so much better than other rollers, I am never going to increase its width. My vertical flick buff is what should happen, making the flick more powerful, not less difficult. This comes directly from possibly the biggest Big Swig lover.

No need to get this way towards an honest suggestion.

That aside, there's a difference between a weapon being made easier for the sake of being simpler to pick up and being made easier for the sake of consistency issues that even both a strong and dedicated player wouldn't be able to fix. In this case I don't know enough about Vidknight's Swig friends here to say for sure of how good they are but I don't think it's relevant for the sake of this argument. If you were to jump to the conclusion of this being to make the weapon simpler to pick up then that's a bit dismissive. If you're saying that you even would have a problem with improving consistency then this doesn't line up with how I understood your issue with this was and you'd probably need to elaborate.

One of my roommates has been a diehard (Carbon) Roller player since Splatoon 1. He's been Top 500 XP in Splatoon 2 in spite of being stuck with Autobomb Launcher before his activity in the games dipped a bunch not too long after. If I recall correctly he specifically has spoken well of both the Carbon and vanilla Rollers' hitbox buffs because of this exact thing - to fix inattainable consistency that should be reachable on paper. There's a reason everyone was very explicitly calling it a buff and not a quality-of-life change, that being that it improves its consistency for even top-level players.

You can tell them to "just hit all of your shots" but I'll bring up the example I have in other threads that if things were this simple, E-Liter would be the best weapon in the game and it wouldn't even be close. I'm not saying to make E-Liter more consistent but if it's for the sake of something like Swig, even if only a little, then I can see the case to be made for its vertical hitbox to be widened.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Not trying to be rude or downplay here, but I seen swig mains who plays nothing, but swig. They are on a next level dedication to a weapon possibly even more than hydra mains for their weapon and that's saying something.

Yes, I am aware. I made sure my wording there didn't insinuate that, I'm on the opposite end of the weapon spectrum from one-tricks. However, I still absolutely adore Swig's design, I think even more than some one-tricks. Case in point, some dedicated players see the thin vertical flicks as an issue while I think they're perfect the way they are.

That aside, there's a difference between a weapon being made easier for the sake of being simpler to pick up and being made easier for the sake of consistency issues that even both a strong and dedicated player wouldn't be able to fix. In this case I don't know enough about Vidknight's Swig friends here to say for sure of how good they are but I don't think it's relevant for the sake of this argument. If you were to jump to the conclusion of this being to make the weapon simpler to pick up then that's a bit dismissive. If you're saying that you even would have a problem with improving consistency then this doesn't line up with how I understood your issue with this was and you'd probably need to elaborate.

I should probably elaborate; I'm fine with buffs to consistency in some cases, but absolutely not for anything that one-shots. It's why Carbon's consistency buffs made me go from respecting the weapon to despising it. One-shots should always be very difficult to hit, be it through a tight positioning requirement or excellent aim, because you physically cannot react to most one-shots. Making something like a roller's vertical flick more consistent does make the weapon better, but it also makes it more frustrating to fight. Same deal with rapid-fire weapons that splat in two shots.

I feel like I'm unique when discussing balance changes because I always look from the perspective of the player fighting the weapon rather than using it. Yeah, it's cool for Carbon players that they can one-shot consistently with their flicks. But what about the guy getting one-shot? If there's no counterplay (other than knowing where the roller is at all times), the Carbon/Big Swig user should have to aim or position perfectly to get the splat.

You know what, screw it, I'm changing the Carbon nerfs and removing the vertical hitbox buff instead of the horizontal one-shot.

 

[OnePotWonder]

On a related note, I tested out the paint of every roller earlier today, and the paint buffs I've given them are probably a bit overkill, so I've toned a number of them back.

 

[McSquid82]

I've been reading this thread and I'm going to specifically give my thoughts on the Dynamo Roller. It absolutely does not need a fall-off damage nerf considering that's one of the things that had to be buffed in this game's life cycle. You say you hate shooters and think they're too easy to use. However, Dynamo is specifically one of those weapons that can counter them, specifically short range. Like someone already mentioned earlier in this thread, it already pays for its power with it being slow as molasses.

Its horizontal flick takes nearly three quarters of a second to wind up and its vertical flick almost a full second. It's taken nearly two games worth of patches to get it back anywhere close to its S1 level without being OP. The thing is already balanced as is right now. The only thing it really needs now is a paint buff and that's it.

 

[OnePotWonder]

The thing is already balanced as is right now. The only thing it really needs now is a paint buff and that's it.

I disagree. Even disregarding nerfs, it does really need a vertical flick buff. Because the horizontal already has a ton of lethal range and paints four times better, there's pretty much never any reason to use the thing's 1/4 of a second slower vertical. Giving it sniping power seems like a natural way to help it stand out.

It's true that more consistent paint is a higher priority, though.

 

[McSquid82]

I disagree. Even disregarding nerfs, it does really need a vertical flick buff. Because the horizontal already has a ton of lethal range and paints four times better, there's pretty much never any reason to use the thing's 1/4 of a second slower vertical. Giving it sniping power seems like a natural way to help it stand out.

It's true that more consistent paint is a higher priority, though.

There's a reason for this, though. Think of the Dynamo like a tank which trades speed and mobility for a ton of firepower. That's why its horizontal flick paints so well and has so much lethal range. As far as the vertical flick goes it already has sniping power at the cost of nearly a full second wind up time. If it can get set up the vertical flick outranges almost every shooter in the game barring the Squeezer and Jet Squelcher.

That gives it a poking tool that a lot of shorter range weapons can struggle with, especially short range shooters. Sure, you can try to flank it, but that's a lot easier said than done, especially if the Dynamo user knows what they're doing. On top of this, you almost always have to deal with their teammates on top of this so that adds another variable. And the last thing is, the Dynamo is insanely ink hungry. Without Ink Saver main, one flick uses up nearly a fifth of your ink tank.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

One-shots should always be very difficult to hit, be it through a tight positioning requirement or excellent aim, because you physically cannot react to most one-shots.

A carbon horizontal doesn't count as a tight positioning requirement?

I feel like I'm unique when discussing balance changes because I always look from the perspective of the player fighting the weapon rather than using it. Yeah, it's cool for Carbon players that they can one-shot consistently with their flicks. But what about the guy getting one-shot?

Both sides are important. It's possible that people in general are considering how things feel to play more than how they feel to fight, but you're certainly not the only one who cares about the second.

If there's no counterplay (other than knowing where the roller is at all times), the Carbon/Big Swig user should have to aim or position perfectly to get the splat.

The counterplay is to only move into locations you know the roller *isn't*. This can be knowing where the carbon is, but it can also be painting forward before you move up, and carefully watching and painting over when people paint far forward.
Yes, carbon changes the way you play the game. It comes with weaknesses that change the way its team has to play the game, too. Every weapon does both to some extent, but there are other extreme examples as well, like tent and liter. There's a decent argument to be made that for liter this is unhealthy; i can't think of any for the other two.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

One-shots should always be very difficult to hit, be it through a tight positioning requirement or excellent aim, because you physically cannot react to most one-shots.

A carbon horizontal doesn't count as a tight positioning requirement?

With burst bomb, it really isn't. For that, I propose a different nerf: instead of removing carbon's entire identity, slightly increase the time between using burst and being able to use your main again. This would be fine as a general change. I think it's one of the few nerfs you could do to burst bomb that would reduce its strength without taking much away from it's versatility.

 

[OnePotWonder]

With burst bomb, it really isn't. For that, I propose a different nerf: instead of removing carbon's entire identity, slightly increase the time between using burst and being able to use your main again. This would be fine as a general change. I think it's one of the few nerfs you could do to burst bomb that would reduce its strength without taking much away from it's versatility.

Quote inception. That’s a new one on me.

I do have an entirely alternative nerf for Carbon that ignores everything I’ve listed above; remove its Burst Bomb. Give it something like Torpedo or Fizzy Bomb in the next game. The main thing that reduces Carbon’s weaknesses is its Burst, replacing it with a slower combo sub keeps some of that intact but makes the weapon a lot easier to react to, or at least makes it a lot more ink hungry.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I think it's just a fair nerf for burst in general, but it also applies here.

But also,

Yes, carbon changes the way you play the game. It comes with weaknesses that change the way its team has to play the game, too. Every weapon does both to some extent, but there are other extreme examples as well, like tent and liter. There's a decent argument to be made that for liter this is unhealthy; i can't think of any for the other two.

I still don't think carbon is a problem in the first place.

 

[OnePotWonder]

I still don't think carbon is a problem in the first place.

Well, I'm afraid it's a conflict of interest then. You've laid out the best evidence you can. I still think Carbon's buffs made it problematically easy to get splats with, especially in solo queue. Best agree to disagree at this point.

 

[McSquid82]

I'm going to take a wild guess here from all these balance threads that OPW has been making and just assume he has an issue with how the developers balance their game. I'm also going to further assume that he thinks that they don't know what they're doing and that he can do their job better than they can. This isn't an argument for anything for or against, but at this point I'm going to make a statement, because it just seems obvious at this point.

 

[solz]

Honestly, I just have fun reading these

 

[OnePotWonder]

I'm going to take a wild guess here from all these balance threads that OPW has been making and just assume he has an issue with how the developers balance their game. I'm also going to further assume that he thinks that they don't know what they're doing and that he can do their job better than they can. This isn't an argument for anything for or against, but at this point I'm going to make a statement, because it just seems obvious at this point.

And statements like these are what have blown up these threads in the past. Please refrain from this and stay on-topic.