Reworking Sub Weapon Balance

[OnePotWonder]

This post has been in the works for a while, and I feel like I should finally get around to writing it out. Sub weapons have been distinctly split into two categories since the first game in the series; bombs and utilities. With the exception of Splash Wall, all bombs are more useful, more powerful, and overall better than all utilities. I am quite tired of this being the accepted status quo. The gap in power level between Toxic Mist and Splat Bomb is at least five times wider than the gap between Splattershot and Clash Blaster. It should go without saying that this is unacceptable.

So, I've outlined a collection of buffs and nerfs to even out the power of various sub weapons in an effort to make the game more fun while also improving weapon diversity. Without further ado, onto the changes:

Buffs (By Severity)

Sprinkler
Rotation speed during high power mode reduced from 33 to 24 degrees per second
This doubles the number of unique angles at which the sub fires
Displays a pop-up on the user's screen when destroyed by an enemy

Sprinkler is one of the hardest sub weapons to buff, since it's built entirely for inking turf. It benefits more from bombs painting less than any buffs it could personally get, though the QoL of removing the gaps in its high power paint and a destroyed pop-up help it somewhat.

Point Sensor

Ink cost reduced from 45% to 40%​

Point Sensor is the simplest item on the list. Lowering its ink cost makes it easier to use in tandem with its user's main weapon, as well as easier to spam and keep the other team located with. Uninspired, but effective.

Squid Beakon

Now applies a thermal highlight to enemies in its detection radius​

Beakons are an interesting sub to balance due to their limited utility as Super Jump spots. Enhancing their enemy detection abilities by letting them highlight nearby foes gives them a bit more utility, and lets them do something significant even if their team doesn't jump to them.

Ink Mine

Splash damage decreased from 35 to 30​

Ink radius when placed down increased by a factor of 2.5​

Deployment time halved​

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The main weakness of Ink Mine, outside of its lack of retaking power, is the fact that it leaves it user somewhat vulnerable. The combined buffs to its deployment speed and the ink it places down drastically increase its mobility. The damage nerf keeps it in line with nerfed bombs.

Toxic Mist

Now passes through objects instead of breaking against them​

Damages object over time at a rate of 90 DPS (1.5 damage per frame)​

Toxic Mist is hopeless when it comes to being used in a general sense, so the path I'm taking it down is a direct object counter; letting it pass through barriers and passively shred objects in its area akin to its special weapon equivalent, Ink Vac.

Angle Shooter

Direct damage increased from 40 to 45​

Direct hit tracking duration increased from 5 to 10 seconds​

Trail damage increased from 0 to 20​

Now pierces enemies and objects​

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I doubt anyone is surprised by this being the sub weapon to receive the most buffs. Extra direct damage and tracking are nice bonuses, but the main features are the trail damage letting it combo with main weapons like Splattershot Pro and Rapid Blaster Pro Deco, and the bonus feature of it piercing through everything other than terrain. Big Bubbler, Splash Wall, and Crab Tank would all be ignored by it, and its trail would extend through enemies hit by it directly.

Non-Lethal Nerfs (By Severity)

Splash Wall

Base HP decreased from 800 to 600​

Base duration increased from 7 to 8 seconds​

The number one nerf needed for Splash Wall is lower HP making it easier to shred. A 25% nerf is not insignificant, so it would gain a bit more duration as compensation for the severity of the change. The other subs here won't be so lucky.

Fizzy Bomb

Direct explosion damage decreased from 50 to 45​

Splash damage decreased from 35 to 30​

Ink cost now scales based on level of charge, starting at 55% and increasing by 5% per charge level​

Explosion ink splatters removed​

Fizzy Bomb nerfs are very simple. Decreased damage for both explosions, making it so all three explosions have to land and one has to direct in order for it to splat on its own. Additionally, uncharged Fizzies will be buffed and fully charged Fizzies will be nerfed with a new charge-cost scaling system, notably nerfing double Fizzy and putting the sub at a fair level.

With regard to the ink splatters, I'm talking about the small droplets of ink that fly out from a bomb explosion and land well outside its blast radius, only contributing to special charge. Bombs paint well enough without them; we don't need more special spam from supports with bombs.

Torpedo

Minimum detonation time after being thrown increased from 60 to 75 frames​

Splash damage radius removed in locked-on form​

Pellet damage increased from 12 to 15​

Explosion ink splatters removed​

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Torpedo gets two unrelated changes. The first, also applying to Splat Bomb later, increases the sub's detonation time when rolled to give enemies more time to respond to the threat. The second makes avoiding damage from locked-on torpedoes easier by removing their splash damage radius, with a pellet buff to compensate. Rapid Blaster Deco players possibly benefit from this change thanks to the new pellet combo.

Burst Bomb

Splash damage radius removed​

Explosion ink splatters removed​

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Yup, just entirely removing Burst Bomb's 25 damage radius. This added splash damage only makes the sub more irritating, letting it consistently finish off retreating enemies and limiting its ability to be put on weapons like the Bamboozler, the Rapid Blasters, or Brellas to avoid the overpowered combo. The sub is healthier with the splash radius gone.

If you though that change was something of a hot take, you really haven't seen anything yet.

Lethal Nerfs

Splat Bomb, Suction Bomb, Autobomb

Direct explosion damage decreased from 180 to 80​

Explosion ink splatters removed​

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Curling Bomb

Direct explosion damage decreased from 180 to 60​

Explosion ink splatters removed​

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Time for a bit of a rant.
Lethal bombs as a concept should not exist and should never have existed. The only other way to splat an enemy with only sub weapons (within the limitation of one ink tank) is to land two precise Burst Bomb directs, costing 90% of the ink tank compared to bombs' 70% or less in an AoE radius. 80 damage is more than enough for everything lethal bombs need to accomplish and it ensures that they won't splat a full health opponent without any follow-up. It combos with a Charger's tap shot, a Range's spark shot, a single shot from crEdit, and a single flick from Inkbrush. If you can't hit that after throwing out your Splat Bomb, you deserve to get splatted. This also guts these bombs' object damage, which is again completely valid considering no other sub weapons can shred objects (not counting my buffed Toxic Mist). If bombs had been originally released in Splatoon 1 dealing 80 damage, nobody would even think about potentially making them lethal. It would be a mad thought. Hence why I will be accepting no counterarguments to this change. I am in the right here, there is no convincing me otherwise.

Back to the rest of the changes.

Splat Bomb

Minimum detonation time after being thrown increased from 60 to 75 frames​

I already covered this nerf when discussing Torpedo; it makes it easier to avoid the bomb when it's rolled.

Curling Bomb

Explodes on contact with an enemy​

In case you're wondering why Curling of all bombs got a greater damage nerf than the others, this is why. Paying tribute to its predecessor Seeker, Curling Bomb would gain the ability to explode on contact with an enemy, dealing 60 + 20 for a total of 80 damage.

Autobomb

Applies a thermal highlight to enemies caught in its blast radius for 6 seconds​

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Lastly, Autobomb will gain the ability to highlight enemies it damages to compensate for the greater impact of the damage nerf on it.


Feel free to share your thoughts on these changes below, or share your own! This is every and all of the changes I would personally make to sub weapons and I'd be curious to see where yours differ and why.
Thanks for reading through this, and have a wonderful day.

 

[Zonink]

Basically every frontline other than 52 is dead with these changes. Squeezer and Pencil becomes gods among men. Every Solo Q match is full of anchors because every front and most midlines are so hyper dependent on their sub to poke at longer range weapons, and with that tool being heavily neutered. picking those weapons becomes akin to Elo Seppuku. Even weapons that seem better in this lethalless world you created like Blasters and Brellas will become unusable without teammates to subconsciously chipping them with bursts or splat bomb 30's, Special spam becomes the only way to make progress in a match as Aggro weapons slowly fade away without good poke tools. Whats the point of throwing splat bomb at the pencil on the other side wahoo zones if pencil can just tank with minimal risk. Randomly dealing 80 to someone who is under no pressure from other players is the same as dealing 0, It's why dart is so commonly seen as the worst sub in the game.

Bombs are annoying but. it's very much a necessary evil in this game. Stripping their lethality makes them non threatening in a lot of situations. Bombs aren't designed to kill people. it's a tool to force movement and break stalemates. And every single weapon is designed around their presence. I say this as someone who plays explo, plays rapid, I die to random splat bombs so much. and it is tilting no doubt. but without those tools this game just becomes charger hell. and I'll take randomly giving the enemy JR free kills over that any day.

 

[OnePotWonder]

While I do have some strong disagreements to word, I truly must thank you. I couldn't have asked for a better argument to rip to shreds.

Basically every frontline other than 52 is dead with these changes. Squeezer and Pencil becomes gods among men. Every Solo Q match is full of anchors because every front and most midlines are so hyper dependent on their sub to poke at longer range weapons, and with that tool being heavily neutered. picking those weapons becomes akin to Elo Seppuku.

First things first, good opening with the blatant hyperbole. There are three very big reasons why this argument doesn't work.

1. A tool to displace backlines isn't mandatory for a frontline weapon to be good. See: Custom Blaster, Splat Roller.
2. Non-lethal bombs still displace backlines. When was the last time you saw a charger tank a Torpedo unfazed?
3. Bombs are still good at literally everything else. They still paint, still chip damage, and still deny space in fights.

Splash Wall would be easier to shred with main weapons due to its HP nerf, making bombs less necessary in countering it. It already doesn't synergize super well with Squeezer, so that kit wouldn't be nearly as broken as you make it out to be.

Even weapons that seem better in this lethalless world you created like Blasters and Brellas will become unusable without teammates to subconsciously chipping them with bursts or splat bomb 30's, Special spam becomes the only way to make progress in a match as Aggro weapons slowly fade away without good poke tools.

I can only assume you are just throwing out words with no meaning behind them here, very convincing argument. If you're trying to claim that without their bombs being lethal, blasters and brellas need chip damage from teammates to work well, then that's just plain wrong since their own bombs still do chip damage. Aggressive weapons would not fade away without good poking tools and the formerly lethal bombs are still good poking tools.

Whats the point of throwing splat bomb at the pencil on the other side wahoo zones if pencil can just tank with minimal risk. Randomly dealing 80 to someone who is under no pressure from other players is the same as dealing 0, It's why dart is so commonly seen as the worst sub in the game.

"Minimal risk," you say? Even though said Pencil player could be splatted by one hit from any weapon in the game, and would also have their feet painted over. If you're not going to follow up on this hypothetical Splat Bomb in any way, shape, or form, why should the Pencil player have to move at all? You've made no effort to move them outside of pressing the R button an aiming in their general direction. Maybe take half a second to consider the point of view of the Pencil player here. It's hard enough playing a backline in an aggressive position, your enemies don't need the ability to threaten a splat against you from a distance where they can't do anything else to threaten you.

Additionally, Angle Shooter is not the worst sub in the game because hitting an enemy under no pressure is meaningless. Using the sub to snipe unthreatened enemies from far away is a waste of ink. The sub is actually bad because it doesn't have enough of an impact for how much aim it requires. The most popular buff for the sub isn't letting it splat in two hits, it's letting its trail deal damage. For good reason; that's what it needs to be good.

Bombs are annoying but. it's very much a necessary evil in this game.

No, they aren't.

Stripping their lethality makes them non threatening in a lot of situations.

That's the point. They should not be threatening in said situations. None of the other 11 sub weapons can be.

Bombs aren't designed to kill people.

So why do you so insist on letting them? They don't need to in order to work.

it's a tool to force movement and break stalemates. And every single weapon is designed around their presence. I say this as someone who plays explo, plays rapid, I die to random splat bombs so much. and it is tilting no doubt. but without those tools this game just becomes charger hell. and I'll take randomly giving the enemy JR free kills over that any day.

My nerfed bombs still force movement. If by breaking stalemates you mean getting a stray splat, then no, bombs no longer do that. Risky, aggressive plays or surprise sharks and off-angles should be what break stalemates, not lucky bomb throws. And no, not every weapon is designed with bombs in mind. Dynamo and Explosher both attack sluggishly enough that a well-timed Splat Bomb can be completely unavoidable.

Sure, I concede you this one thing; if these bombs were to be removed completely, the game would be a charger player's fever dream. But formerly lethal bombs would still in fact exist after these changes, and they would work beyond well enough. I remind you one last time that these bombs share the game with Toxic Mist, Angle Shooter, Point Sensor, and Ink Mine. They are getting these nerfs because their power level is too high compared to most of the other subs, not because they're too powerful in general.

Good day.

 

[Zonink]

Well there is a lot here.

1. A tool to displace backlines isn’t mandatory for a front to be good.

This is a good starting point. Bombs displace everyone, not just backlines. Bombs help force people off high ground, stop midlines from aggressively dropping onto fronts, and temporarily hold space for fronts. Some maps like Manta are noticeably worse if you can’t flush out mid bunkers. Or top left. Most weapons can’t even interact with a pencil sitting top left on that map without specials. Bombs give these weapons the ability to “tempo” longer range weapons out. Which if you're playing in a non coordinated setting like most of us are. (Solo Q) Is very useful.

“See Cblast and Vroller.
This is another misconception. I’ll ignore Cblast since that weapon is honestly not really that good lol, But Vroller is a honest to god top tier and it’s lack of a bomb is actually a pretty core part of it’s competitive identity. Vroller is extremely dependent on front shooters like Neo Splash. It’s not an exaggeration to say that Vroller is really not that good without a Ttek or a Splash paired with it. Vroller and Carbon are often paired with strike weapons in order to actually get in and hold ground. See Volty or Atomic in +1. They are almost always paired with a Neo Splash to facilitate that playstyle. When you gut the hell out of suction. You gut the hell out of Neo Splash, and when you gut the hell of splash, you are left with a front that has no friends and nobody to cover its weaknesses. Patch notes change more than just the weapon listed and have cascading effects on many other weapons. please if you are to learn anything from this post please understand this.

1. Non lethal bombs still displace backlines.

Torp has an active hitbox and chases you, Burst’s damage is instant. Torp’s core weakness is that it doesn’t make space against players who aren’t already occupied. Pen just taps it once and still has another 4 shots in the barrel. This is VERY different from being forced to drop charge altogether when getting suctioned or splat bombed. The fuse time on lethals is actually really important towards their functionality since lethals are able to hold space for longer than damage subs.

1. Bombs would be still be super good for a bunch of things.

Spending 70% of your inktank on 80 damage is very good and quick way to take yourself out of a fight. People aren’t gonna still use their bombs. They're gonna play weapons that function without bombs. I.E anchors or splash wall guns. I can’t even imagine how bad something like forge would be in a world where squeeze just walks through the suction and outranges you regardless of being damaged. Or god forbid just waltz in front of their wall as you run away, face tanking the 80 and killing you.

• Splash wall would be easier to shred due to the Hp nerf

The primary counter to splash wall is multiple players just exhausting their subs and bursting the wall down. The HP nerf helps but the burst 180 damage from multiple players is the main way to deal with the sub. A 3 v 4 with 2 players low on ink is still a 3 v 4. When you nerf bomb damage you nerf the primary way to beat splash wall. And even if it’s 200 hp less. That’s still an indirect buff to a sub that is already VERY strong. A lot of wall weapons kill extremely fast so trying to calc main weapon dps is really weird since in most situations you aren’t in any position to actually safely shoot at wall with your main. And the weapons that can poke wall safely don’t need their subs at all. (Backlines.)

• “If you're trying to claim that without their bombs being lethal, blasters and brellas need chip damage from teammates to work well, then that's just plain wrong since their own bombs still do chip damage”

They are less likely to have teammates to chip enemy players for them because less people would pick bombs over other options. Hurting their performance majorly. Range can barely even throw its own splat bomb without having to sit down like a kid with asthma. A weapon’s viability is entirely contextual on the meta around it. Blaster is a terrible class if its partners are Eliter and Squeezer. But very good if its partners are Vsplash and Vslosh. It’s not complicated. And please be nice to my purple prose. :(

• "Minimal risk," you say? Even though said Pencil player could be splatted by one hit from any weapon in the game, and would also have their feet painted over. If you're not going to follow up on this hypothetical Splat Bomb in any way, shape, or form, why should the Pencil player have to move at all? You've made no effort to move them outside of pressing the R button an aiming in their general direction. Maybe take half a second to consider the point of view of the Pencil player here. It's hard enough playing a backline in an aggressive position, your enemies don't need the ability to threaten a splat against you from a distance where they can't do anything else to threaten you.

You throw splat bomb at pencil’s feet to make them move so they drop charge. So your team can safely position. A good pencil is going to be very far back from any form of main weapon chip and the dropping a sight line for a second vs taking 80 damage is an easy choice that you really don’t wanna give the enemy. The solution to this isn’t having your teammate super laser dart the pencil after you epic chip them for 80. It’s picking a wall weapon and sitting behind it instead of throwing the bomb in the first place. It’s easier, faster, and doesn’t require much coordination.

Also I don’t need to take a moment to consider the pov of the pencil. I’m the pencil player. I’m also the squeezer player. I have nearly 7 5 starred weapons and none of them have a lethal bomb. I directly benefit from this hypothetical meta you have proposed more than almost anyone. I am mostly citing Pencil and Squeeze because I understand their play patterns at a fundamental level. I understand the dichotomy of Squeezer in particular since I have both mained it when it had a lethal in s2 and mained the current iteration that has wall. It's completely night and day and warps how that weapon plays completely.

• That's the point. They should not be threatening in said situations. None of the other 11 sub weapons can be.:

Then buff those subs to be as good as lethals so the trade off of not having a bomb is worth it. Stop trying to tear something down because you simply don’t like it. I’d rather see Toxic mist be buffed to high hell than see splat bomb get nerfed to oblivion.

• So why do you so insist on letting them? They don't need to in order to work.

Because when you nerf something so bad. It makes those options less appealing than other options. It’s not that bombs aren’t able to displace without lethality. Although they are MUCH worse without the threat of a trip back to spawn. It’s just that you won’t see that many bombs in general. John Splattershot isn’t picking Vshot and chugging along with garbage 80 damage suctions. He’s throwing that sucker in the can and loading up with his old pal V52. Or worse he stays on vshot and fully leans into Zooka as his only displacement options. Whipping out those dusty special charge chunks and filling his gear to the brim with zooka juice. Isn’t this a great hypothetical.

• My nerfed bombs still force movement. If by breaking stalemates you mean getting a stray splat, then no, bombs no longer do that. Risky, aggressive plays or surprise sharks and off-angles should be what break stalemates, not lucky bomb throws. And no, not every weapon is designed with bombs in mind. Dynamo and Explosher both attack sluggishly enough that a well-timed Splat Bomb can be completely unavoidable.

This is the crux of why your argument is flawed. It’s very rarely a lucky bomb throw. It’s a mistake that YOU made that bombs are explicitly designed to punish. You didn’t randomly die to a bomb tee hee. You over extended and the ttek (who’s only way of interacting with you is throwing a bomb) caught you. This happens to everyone. And sometimes it is actually lucky. Sometimes you turn a corner you wa-baam. A suction is randomly there. Sometimes a splat bomb rolls down a slope slightly and the fuse timer is delayed a quarter of a second. But most of the time, in 90% of games you play. It’s not. It’s you man. It’s always been you. And the first step towards improving is accepting that. It took me an embarrassingly long amount of time to accept that myself.

Also dynamo is kinda stupid without people throwing bombs at its feet. Like that weapon throws out enormous aoe 1shot hitboxes. It already hard beats fronts even when they have bombs that’s kinda the gimmick of that weapon. It’d probably be way worse in this hypothetical meta since it’s really really soft to anchors. As for explo idk I didn’t really remember dying to splat bomb that much when grinding 5 star. It even has triple down to dodge bombs in a pinch.

anyway I really hope someone get something out of what I'm saying. I'm currently on a lot of pain meds rn after smashing my finger at work so this was kinda painful to write.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Really doubling down here? I don't have time to go through everything again, half of it's redundant anyway. I'll just cut clear to the point.
Out of the fourteen sub weapons in the game, three of them are lethal bombs that can be used to displace longer ranged weapons in the exact manner you consider vital to the entire meta remaining intact. So what happens when solo matchmaking gives you a comp with no lethal bombs? You just can't do anything against backlines or Wall weapons? You say you play plenty of weapons that don't have lethal bombs so you clearly have been in this scenario before. The game isn't automatically lost because of a comp like this.

Would you rather have a nerfed Splat Bomb that deals 80 damage with a direct, or a Toxic Mist that can't paint, can't chip, can barely displace enemies at all, and is only useful for denying space in specific scenarios? Or would you rather have an Angle Shooter that can deal 40 damage against one target at most, requiring good aim? Perhaps an Ink Mine or Squid Beakon that's completely useless when trying to reclaim space, or a Sprinkler to let you paint an area no enemies are looking at? Formerly lethal bombs are still better than all weak utilities as they are in their current state. I wouldn't be suggesting the nerf otherwise.

I can nerf Splash Wall more if need be, but Sub Weapons should not be as powerful as lethal bombs are. Because when sub weapons are too powerful, you get a meta of sub weapon spam, which is exactly why this doesn't work:

Then buff those subs to be as good as lethals so the trade off of not having a bomb is worth it. Stop trying to tear something down because you simply don’t like it. I’d rather see Toxic mist be buffed to high hell than see splat bomb get nerfed to oblivion.

Perhaps you should stop trying to keep something harmful intact because you simply don't like enemy anchors and Wall weapons.

As for this:

This is the crux of why your argument is flawed. It’s very rarely a lucky bomb throw. It’s a mistake that YOU made that bombs are explicitly designed to punish. You didn’t randomly die to a bomb tee hee. You over extended and the ttek (who’s only way of interacting with you is throwing a bomb) caught you. This happens to everyone. And sometimes it is actually lucky. Sometimes you turn a corner you wa-baam. A suction is randomly there. Sometimes a splat bomb rolls down a slope slightly and the fuse timer is delayed a quarter of a second. But most of the time, in 90% of games you play. It’s not. It’s you man. It’s always been you. And the first step towards improving is accepting that. It took me an embarrassingly long amount of time to accept that myself.

This is the biggest flaw in your argument, actually. Lethal bombs have the ability to effortlessly punish mistakes made in neutral. This is the exact reason why .52 is hated as a main weapon and why it's so belligerently easy, and it applies in all the same ways to lethal bombs. Its the inherent flaw in their design; what makes them a problem. It shouldn't be on you the attacker to be careful when approaching a Ttek because of its bomb, it should be on the Ttek to be careful when it's being approached. Bombs being lethal can end neutral stalemates, yes, but in a match without them they still end at roughly the same times. Fights would still happen and result in someone getting splatted even without bombs. Yeah, people could just be better at avoiding the bombs. But why should that be mandatory when the players throwing them put next to no effort into doing so?

80 damage is a lot of damage; I remind you that it makes it so a player will be splatted by one hit from any weapon. If you use a bomb to try and break neutral, following up on it is barely more difficult than the bomb getting the splat itself.

For the final time, no other subs can do this. Only three out of fourteen in the game, not even counting Autobomb when it comes to ending neutral with a stray splat. Why should a Ttek be able to get such a splat with its sub while something like a vSplash, Tri-Slosher, Rapid Blaster, Heavy Splatling physically cannot, ever? It's a matter of balance, and more than that a matter of fairness. Formerly lethal bomb weapons can stand to taste a touch of mediocrity when every Mist, Sprinkler, and Sensor weapon has had to put up with it for over half a decade.

I very much wish I could tell you to stop being entitled right now, but alas, you don't play bomb weapons. Not sure why you're bothering to argue against this considering that's the case.

 

[Zonink]

You are just shadow boxing against nobody. You are perceiving flaws and an inherent "OPNess" of lethals because you just aren't good at playing against them. You think I'm being entitled? to what? Because I care about the health of a metagame more than my own personal preferences?

You are throwing around words and jargon in an effort to obfuscate the simple core fact that you just don't like playing against lethals. and that's ok man. I hate playing against liter, I hate 52, I pop a blood vessel every time a crab boom 90's me. It's tilting to play against counterplay. But that's the cost of a healthy meta game, You need these checks and balances in order to sustain variety and niches. I played quad shooter scrims in splatoon 2, triple crab liter during launch splatoon 3. I know what these horrible metas look like. Splatoon 2's endgame was entirely brought by the repeated nerfs to the strong midlines that led to constant unending special spam as the only way to make progress. Splatoon 3 launched with a majority of the specials being grossly undertuned. Which meant limited counterplay to crab tank. (It didn't help that suction was nerfed from 220 -> 180 damage inbetween 2 to 3 so objects were naturally much stronger.)

Stop trying to justify nerfing lethals by saying "Oh toxic mist is so bad it's unfair to mist weapons" just giga buff toxic mist until it's worth the trade off of running it over a lethal. This isn't even that hard of a task. Bombs aren't that much better than utility subs than you think. Neo Machine sees more consistent usage than Vmachine, CDS has more results than VDS, Almost every shooter that is used as a slayer has a splash wall, You can fix the disparity of subs without sledge hammering bombs out of spite.

anyway. have a good one. and I'll try to be nicer. This conversation has been weirdly antagonistic for reasons that are very benign. We are talking about Splatoon not our rights here.

 

[Grushi]

@OnePotWonder please just knock it down a little when arguing about game balance, there's no need to get so defensive over this, it's fine. It's okay for people to disagree

 

[OnePotWonder]

You are just shadow boxing against nobody. You are perceiving flaws and an inherent "OPNess" of lethals because you just aren't good at playing against them. You think I'm being entitled? to what? Because I care about the health of a metagame more than my own personal preferences?

Who said anything about me struggling to counter bombs? The issue is I'm sick of having to when I'm already responsible for spacing and positioning correctly while also making sure the enemies don't pull off any BS flanks; a player should not be able to force the amount of effort it takes to dodge a bomb by simply pressing the R button once while aiming in someone's general direction.

There is simply not enough benefit to the game from bombs' lethal explosion to counter the fun they objectively detract from the game with their ability to force players to drop everything and move out of the way. It's not like the nerf makes them any less fun to use anyway; I know from experience that the removing the minimal satisfaction of a potential stray bomb splat is in no way a great loss.

You need these checks and balances in order to sustain variety and niches. I played quad shooter scrims in splatoon 2, triple crab liter during launch splatoon 3. I know what these horrible metas look like. Splatoon 2's endgame was entirely brought by the repeated nerfs to the strong midlines that led to constant unending special spam as the only way to make progress. Splatoon 3 launched with a majority of the specials being grossly undertuned. Which meant limited counterplay to crab tank. (It didn't help that suction was nerfed from 220 -> 180 damage inbetween 2 to 3 so objects were naturally much stronger.)

What does any of this have to do with the bomb nerf, though? Splatoon 2's quad shooter meta was fueled by lethal bombs, and nerfing them in turn only nerfs special spam weapons. Nerfing midlines is completely different.

The backline meta won't change with these nerfs; Pencil is still Pencil and Edit is still a better option for shredding objects, which is in higher demand since bombs aren't as effective a counter to Splash Wall anymore. Speaking of which, Splash Wall weapons themselves would be unchanged or worse than they are now; while they'd be more durable against bombs, they would get shredded faster by main weapons and could be countered by the buffed Toxic Mist.

Stop trying to justify nerfing lethals by saying "Oh toxic mist is so bad it's unfair to mist weapons" just giga buff toxic mist until it's worth the trade off of running it over a lethal. This isn't even that hard of a task.

It most certainly is. I'm the guy who exclusively makes posts about balance ideas, remember? I've tried buffing Toxic Mist in a myriad of ways and the closest I've come to giving it anywhere near the potential of bombs is letting it damage players over time. Which also got shot down, by the way. If you want to back me up on that idea I can dig it up from wherever it got buried.

Bombs aren't that much better than utility subs than you think. Neo Machine sees more consistent usage than Vmachine, CDS has more results than VDS, Almost every shooter that is used as a slayer has a splash wall, You can fix the disparity of subs without sledge hammering bombs out of spite.

Both of those main weapons have better, cheaper specials on their second kits, utility subs that synergize very well with their mains, and a degree of ink hunger that makes using their bombs in fights often inefficient. Lethal bombs aren't best on every weapon, but the only time I could possibly see them one of them being bad is Suction Bomb on E-liter or Dynamo. And even then they'd never be the worst possible option.

@OnePotWonder please just knock it down a little when arguing about game balance, there's no need to get so defensive over this, it's fine. It's okay for people to disagree

Disagreement, sure. But if someone opens their argument swinging with no attempt at politeness, of course I'll match their tone.
Don't be the stereotypical teacher that punishes a student for fighting back, ignoring the instigator.

anyway. have a good one. and I'll try to be nicer. This conversation has been weirdly antagonistic for reasons that are very benign.

I would appreciate a touch more civility, if this is to continue. A good pro tip is to re-read things a few times before you actually post them, especially opening comments. Not just to check for grammatical errors, but also to ensure you don't offend anyone. Because opening your argument by saying someone's idea will kill the game is actually quite offensive. Don't use hyperbole. Pretty much ever. Enjoy the free advice.

Good day.

 

[🌌☾ᏉᎬᎶᎪ☽⭐]

Wow this was a lot to get through. Reading it all I just got to say to you Pot, this feels wrong. Not even on a mad thought level like you suggest just, "this feels like it would kill the game and not recover" levels of wrong. Doing a bit of digging, there's no such articles suggesting that Splat Bombs (and lethal bombs in general) used to deal 80 damage before release, so I'm not sure where you got this information. If such proof could be provided, such as a datamine or other official article that would be appreciated.

Now, I would like to be clear that I am on the same boat as Zonink here, as I'd much prefer if weaker options were buffed instead of dragging down top tier bombs for Nintendo's lack of action. We could go on about how Line Marker needs the two things to be good but that'd be redundant, but if Marker and by extension every other utility were to be good at the cost of their lethal counterparts being blown asunder, then I would like to kindly reject this proposal. From the perspective of a charger and brella player, this would be really terrible for all parties involved. Chargers in my opinion are at least well handled when compared to other games, having a range cap, laser, and whatnot. Bombs are really good at forcing them out, lethal especially, and while you do point this out and want to keep this intact, I'm afraid this is not how to go about it.

I'll use VCharger as my example. Bombs can displace it, and it also has a splat bomb to displace the enemy too. You wish to engage this charger, so you throw a splat bomb on its snipe, hoping to follow up on the chip damage, and at this point you've made a huge lapse in your judgement because with the bomb not being lethal anymore, a few new scenarios open up.

This can be either:
- You reconsider the follow up and nothing happens.
- The charger moves away and gets chipped, but you don't have the range or time to follow up.
- You get the chip and the charger is stuck, therefore you have time to splat them.
- The charger squid rolls, parrying the bomb. This means the bomb has now dealt no damage to the charger player and are free to make their escape.
- You get the lethal, but the charger player facetanks it, resulting in either you getting splatted, or a trade at best.

I have to be for real with this. Facetanking sucks. To know you were right there only for your opponent to just tank everything and leave unscathed feels terrible. Apply that to literally every time you call out someone and now the game just toys with you. It doesn't matter if your utility subs are usable if it means they are adjusted to have the same impact they used to, because now the tools that help utilities shine can't function anymore. Sure, you keep 20% of your ink now that you have Sensor, but what's the point if your Slosher wants to throw a Splat Bomb at a Snipewriter and be left a sitting duck afterwards since going for the follow up means risking getting two tapped anyway? One tapped by a Liter? Shredded by a Hydra which can finally play the game because it doesn't have to worry about bombs anymore and can just say "Ah I'll just tank it." It promotes bad habits. Instead of saying "Oh I should get out of here now" players will think "Eh, I'm sure I can take them down with me" more than ever before. You know what kind of classes would kill for that leniency? Chargers, Splatlings, Stringers, the Explosher, the Bloblobber for that matter.

All pegs are knocked with the removal of lethal bombs. You can tune stuff sure, but a complete tear of the already fixable balance just isn't it. Taking away concrete displacement doesn't un-f*ck the nature of already borderline unhealthy classes like Chargers. I will admit, the one class that I love and know would benefit the most from this wouldn't be fun with this change. Going back to the VCharger proposal earlier, what if I was caught out and wanted to escape? I throw a bomb to give me some time of course. Sure I can tap shot them to secure the kill maybe but that's already asking you to hit it out of endlag or hit it before throwing the bomb in the short time window you have when getting caught out, and all that effort can be nullified 9 times out of 10 by someone walking forward and pressing ZR, or just squid rolling to ignore the bomb damage entirely and splatting me that way. I don't create space by throwing it, but actively give up time for even thinking that would work.

But at this point, I only really write this for myself. I know you won't reconsider. You opened the discussion up with the express purpose of trying to get away with not being criticized by writing "Hence why I will be accepting no counterarguments to this change. I am in the right here, there is no convincing me otherwise." You wanted people reading this to simply agree, and when that wasn't given, you immediately went on the defensive. This wasn't written with discussion in mind; it screams of vitriol and pettiness, and I can't help but feel sad. The fact that a simple expansion of a comment earlier was seen as doubling down rather than an explanation, it hurts.

If there's any takeaway, please know that this isn't about trying to prove a point or show off that the status quo is perfect, because it's not. I think that there are certainly solutions you could make to fix this atrocious balance of sub weapons, and you're very brave for deciding to show off your own ideas. I actually quite like your change to Toxic Mist a lot. There's solutions that are definitely out there, one's that I cannot think of off the top of my head, but I hope some iterations could be made to this balance proposal, not out of vendetta but for the love of the funny squid game.

 

[isaac4]

Disagreement, sure. But if someone opens their argument swinging with no attempt at politeness, of course I'll match their tone.
Don't be the stereotypical teacher that punishes a student for fighting back, ignoring the instigator.

I can understand why you might have taken offense to the wording used in the initial response but outside of that, their post does not give the impression of someone looking to purposely offend you.
Your responses come off as unnecessarily antagonistic that would only serve to escalate the current situation which is why @Grushi had only referred to you.

 

[Zonink]

I'll keep this quick but when I initially read this post. I saw the "I am in the right here, there is no convincing me otherwise." And just completely assumed you were baiting someone into a discussion about this. Because frankly it is an interesting topic to explore. And why else would you put this in a splatoon 3 discussion forum. Like seriously cmon.

I responded with what I felt was a funny amount of snark and was consequently barriaged by insults and Nuh Uhs. I figured you just completely misinterpreted what I said and wrote up a lengthy explanation. (The final section might of been too much but I wanted to stress that I think that the majority of bomb deaths are player error. ) it was only after that response that I realized that you are completely deadpan serious and really hated my guts. So uh really sorry about that.

Also I wrote these on my phone so sorry for the Grammer issues lol.

 

[OnePotWonder]

I'll keep this quick but when I initially read this post. I saw the "I am in the right here, there is no convincing me otherwise." And just completely assumed you were baiting someone into a discussion about this. Because frankly it is an interesting topic to explore. And why else would you put this in a splatoon 3 discussion forum. Like seriously cmon.

I responded with what I felt was a funny amount of snark and was consequently barriaged by insults and Nuh Uhs. I figured you just completely misinterpreted what I said and wrote up a lengthy explanation. (The final section might of been too much but I wanted to stress that I think that the majority of bomb deaths are player error. ) it was only after that response that I realized that you are completely deadpan serious and really hated my guts. So uh really sorry about that.

Also I wrote these on my phone so sorry for the Grammer issues lol.

Well, you would actually be completely correct about that, actually. I was, in fact, baiting a response. However, the response you gave was exactly the wrong kind of response.

You claim that I barraged you with "nuh uh"s, but your very first comments was the most massive, malignant "nuh uh" that anyone could have possibly written out. Forget discussing, you didn't even acknowledge any of the positive impacts of the lethal damage removal, nor literally any other change in the thread. Your entire opener was nothing but a massive slab of unconstructive negative feedback with no noticeable undertone of humor whatsoever. You then did proceed to double down on your wholly negative, unconstructive criticism. I had every right to be defensive. I was defending months' worth of thinking and an hour's worth of writing from your slander. Pardon me for not just laying down and conceding.

And the fact of the matter is, every point I've made has been absolutely valid. Displacing enemies with bombs requires no effort on the part of the user and demands enemy attention and action with penalty of death. Lethal bombs are in a league of their own in terms of balance and overshadow everything else that tries to do anything they're able to, due to their already insane versatility with lethal damage aside. 80 damage is a considerable threat and enough to splat an enemy that's taken damage from any source, and it is more than enough to do anything other than break objects and displace otherwise unthreatened backlines. Bombs would still be good against anything other than those few specific matchups you've taken issue with even without their lethal damage.

Now, touching on that last part, reduced object damage and displacement are the two the biggest issues you've had with the change, and you haven't put the tiniest scrap of thought into fixing them in a way that keeps the damage nerf intact. Did you not think to consider that, hey, object damage modifiers exist and are a tweakable statistic of sub weapons? You could have suggested that bombs gain double damage against objects to compensate for their halved direct damage, but no, you argue to just not make the change in the first place. Displacing backlines? You can make bomb directs stun them, slow them, blind them, break their charge, knock them back, mess up their aim, do literally anything else detrimental other than outright killing them.

I don't understand why everyone has decided to side with you when all you've done is rebuke my changes without any thought or care or really any unique ideas whatsoever. Does nobody here have any imagination, or any ounce of respect for people who do?

I literally wrote out very specifically that "there is no convincing me otherwise" of this change being good for the game before going into a rant about how and why lethal bombs shouldn't exist. What part of that gave you the idea, "hm, maybe I should convince this guy that he's wrong and this is a terrible idea"? Seriously, come on. Can't you take a hint?

There is only one thing that a person can do to earn my enmity; not insults, not chafes, not obnoxiousness, not even maining one of the weapons I hate most in the game; trying to shut down my ideas. I am willing to give you a second chance based on the fact that most of this thread has been a misunderstanding. I hope you don't squander it.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

There is only one thing that a person can do to earn my enmity; not insults, not chafes, not obnoxiousness, not even maining one of the weapons I hate most in the game; trying to shut down my ideas. I am willing to give you a second chance based on the fact that most of this thread has been a misunderstanding. I hope you don't squander it.

Dude.
People are allowed to disagree with your ideas.

I literally wrote out very specifically that "there is no convincing me otherwise" of this change being good for the game before going into a rant about how and why lethal bombs shouldn't exist. What part of that gave you the idea, "hm, maybe I should convince this guy that he's wrong and this is a terrible idea"?

The part where you explicitly asked people to share their thoughts, at the end of your initial post.
You said yourself that you were baiting a response; do you want us to share or not?

 

[Zonink]

None of my original post was hyperbole, I strongly believe your changes are so enormous and wide sweeping that it would severely damage the game in its current state. The fact you even suggested these in the first place. and defended them as ruthlessly as you did is strange considering how obviously extreme the changes are. Like of course someone will naturally disagree with you on this. Splatoon is notorious for having very incremental balance patches. The inner workings of the meta are not even close to being solved. This is the metagame equivalent of just flipping the table. It does not take a lot to make something good and conversely it does not take a lot to make something really really bad. Toxic mist would be entirely viable if it was just buffed to do like. rain damage after a few frames of being in it. The frame data on consecutive dart throws could be buffed and break the game in half.

I don't even want to consider the implications that you pondered this for months and thought, Yea this is unequivocally right and nobody is capable of forming a counter argument towards it. You were never available to be swayed, and you made that VERY clear in the original post. I made an assumption that you were more amicable than your post led on because I straight up thought you were being sarcastic. My bad I guess.

This is gonna be my last post in this thread. This was awful.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Well, you would actually be completely correct about that, actually. I was, in fact, baiting a response. However, the response you gave was exactly the wrong kind of response.

You claim that I barraged you with "nuh uh"s, but your very first comments was the most massive, malignant "nuh uh" that anyone could have possibly written out. Forget discussing, you didn't even acknowledge any of the positive impacts of the lethal damage removal, nor literally any other change in the thread. Your entire opener was nothing but a massive slab of unconstructive negative feedback with no noticeable undertone of humor whatsoever. You then did proceed to double down on your wholly negative, unconstructive criticism. I had every right to be defensive.

He wasn't attacking you. He was explaining why he believed that your ideas would not work. Those are not at all the same thing.

I was defending months' worth of thinking and an hour's worth of writing from your slander. Pardon me for not just laying down and conceding.

We're not expecting you to change your opinion on the spot; we're expecting you not to lash out at people whose opinions are different.

And the fact of the matter is, every point I've made has been absolutely valid.

Obviously you think your points are valid. Zonink thinks every point that he's made is valid; otherwise he wouldn't have made them in the first place. Such is the nature of discussion. If everyone agreed on everything, there would be no point of having a discussion in the first place.

Now, touching on that last part, reduced object damage and displacement are the two the biggest issues you've had with the change, and you haven't put the tiniest scrap of thought into fixing them in a way that keeps the damage nerf intact. Did you not think to consider that, hey, object damage modifiers exist and are a tweakable statistic of sub weapons? You could have suggested that bombs gain double damage against objects to compensate for their halved direct damage, but no, you argue to just not make the change in the first place. Displacing backlines? You can make bomb directs stun them, slow them, blind them, break their charge, knock them back, mess up their aim, do literally anything else detrimental other than outright killing them.

I don't understand why everyone has decided to side with you when all you've done is rebuke my changes without any thought or care or really any unique ideas whatsoever. Does nobody here have any imagination, or any ounce of respect for people who do?

He very clearly did put thought and care into his responses. Look at the length of some of them.

I do have respect for people who try to come up with unique ideas for changes. I joined a project that uses mods to rebalance all of Splatoon 3. But I've long since given up the idea that the meta is actually going to be better than what we currently have. I'm just doing it because I think it's cool.

There is only one thing that a person can do to earn my enmity; not insults, not chafes, not obnoxiousness, not even maining one of the weapons I hate most in the game; trying to shut down my ideas.

We are not trying to stop you from coming up with ideas. I would be more than willing to discuss them with you if you seemed willing to do the same. But I don't feel welcome sharing my thoughts here. Even if I did, it wouldn't be fun anymore. I think I'm done here as well.

 

[OnePotWonder]

None of my original post was hyperbole, I strongly believe your changes are so enormous and wide sweeping that it would severely damage the game in its current state.

Then get out. You're wrong, and I'm tired of hearing it. You refuse to define the impact of the change against backlines and Splash Wall as anything other than "damage" and haven't even tried to see them in a positive light. What happens when lethal bombs can't displace backlines? They're equally good against every comp and can be nerfed accordingly if they're too strong. If they can't break through Splash Wall? The sub can be nerfed to be reasonably durable against all weapons. Which I've already started on.

Changes don't stand in a vacuum. The problem that needs fixing is not just that lethal bombs' ability to splat on their own is annoying, but also as you keep stalwartly pointing out, they're an essential counter to said backlines and Splash Walls, and a solo comp is far from guaranteed to have one. If things become too powerful, there's literally nothing standing in the way of nerfing them.

The fact you even suggested these in the first place. and defended them as ruthlessly as you did is strange considering how obviously extreme the changes are. Like of course someone will naturally disagree with you on this. Splatoon is notorious for having very incremental balance patches. The inner workings of the meta are not even close to being solved. This is the metagame equivalent of just flipping the table.

What I don't understand is how nobody else is sick of having had to deal with the exact same meta for a year an a half on end. I'm so incredibly sick and tired of the slowness and inconsequentiality of this game's patches. Why am I the only one posting any ideas for changes whatsoever on this site? Do you all just not care about how the game could be improved?

You ought not to be surprised that I get irritated when your alternative suggestion to my nerf is to not change anything. It's a clear cut fact that bombs need nerfs, the least you could do is share one of your own.

It does not take a lot to make something good and conversely it does not take a lot to make something really really bad. Toxic mist would be entirely viable if it was just buffed to do like. rain damage after a few frames of being in it. The frame data on consecutive dart throws could be buffed and break the game in half.

Contrarily, it does take a lot to make something weak overpowered, or something strong worthless. The point of the change is to make bombs worse and it does indeed do that. It doesn't mean that double backline will become better than single, or that aggressive weapons will entirely fall out of the meta. The ones with lethal bombs certainly might, but they wouldn't be unusable in solo play. In order to break the game, you have to intend to break the game. I see the consequences of this change and welcome them. Though I might need to cut down Splash Wall by a further 100 HP and/or give bombs better damage modifiers against objects.

I don't even want to consider the implications that you pondered this for months and thought, Yea this is unequivocally right and nobody is capable of forming a counter argument towards it. You were never available to be swayed, and you made that VERY clear in the original post. I made an assumption that you were more amicable than your post led on because I straight up thought you were being sarcastic. My bad I guess.

This is gonna be my last post in this thread. This was awful.

Did nobody ever tell you not to assume things? I feel as though I really did not come across as sarcastic in my original post, you were just telling yourself what you wanted to hear. I did expect that at least someone else would understand my vision here, but its seems as though you would all rather keep things the way they are than consider something new.

He wasn't attacking you. He was explaining why he believed that your ideas would not work. Those are not at all the same thing.

We're not expecting you to change your opinion on the spot; we're expecting you not to lash out at people whose opinions are different.

He was very much attacking. It is not mutually exclusive to explaining a belief. His tone was hostile and many of his points appeared to be ridiculously exaggerated to the end of making me look bad. You can't expect no backlash from that kind of comment.

But I've long since given up the idea that the meta is actually going to be better than what we currently have. I'm just doing it because I think it's cool.

So you're actually, literally hopeless. That would explain some things.

We are not trying to stop you from coming up with ideas. I would be more than willing to discuss them with you if you seemed willing to do the same. But I don't feel welcome sharing my thoughts here. Even if I did, it wouldn't be fun anymore. I think I'm done here as well.

If you're not, then perhaps don't make it so obviously seem that way. You refuse to provide any response unless you find something you think is bad and then vehemently protest it. I'm happy to have a discussion about an idea if the discussion leaves the idea better off than when it started, or affirms that it's good as standing. I will not begin to entertain the possibility that any of my ideas should not be considered whatsoever; that they would be only harmful. You don't respect my ideas, I don't respect you. Very simple exchange.


If you want to discuss, then discuss. Don't open with an argument. I will not have anyone mistake Zonink as being in the right here, they came to this thread and left an abrasive comment instead of trying to initialize any form of productive discussion.
It's not hard to say, "I think these changes would be a bad idea because..." instead of "Basically every frontline other than 52 is dead with these changes." Take two seconds to think about your tone before you post.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Then get out. You're wrong, and I'm tired of hearing it.

If you're going to respond like this when people criticize your ideas, then I'm not going to bother trying. I'm done trying to explain myself. Don't expect a response from me if you make more threads like this.
I sincerely hope you have a good day.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Good! What you would consider criticism, I don't want to hear. If you're not going to entertain the idea then you're only wasting your time. I'd much rather people follow the ideal "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all" than try and fail to convince me I'm wrong.

 

[sevenleaf]

are we really doing this again...

look onepot in the past i've been vaguely on your side when your threads explode like this but zonink really, really did not come in swinging like you say he did. his initial response was firm but not an attack, and your response to him dialed up the antagonism completely unnecessarily. he did not come in with insults. you responded with insults. that's why grushi only directed his response to you - sorry to say it but you are the aggressor here.

i really want you to think about why you make these threads. what you want to get out of sharing your ideas here. they're bold changes not everyone's going to agree with; many folks might strongly disagree with what you're saying. and that's not a bad thing in itself, to think of changes others might not like. you don't have to water down your ideas until they're inoffensive and palatable. but if you're going to read malice into disagreements unless they're the 'right' disagreements to have or voiced in the 'right' way, do you think it's good for you, or anyone else here, to post these threads in a place where other people who might have strong opinions on splatoon's meta will see and have the opportunity to respond? once you've put your ideas out there, others' responses are out of your control and highly unpredictable. the only thing you can control is yourself. can you approach dissenting opinions, even ones you don't expect and ones you aren't swayed by, with a level head? you're not really showing that you can.

as a reminder, you have been arguing about balance changes in a video game. not something life-altering. not something that carries implications about somebody's morals or beliefs. balance changes in a video game. when things get heated there's no compelling reason not to just, like, step away.

 

[OnePotWonder]

All I really wanted out of this was one measly person to agree with me, and I can’t even have that. Not so much as a single like while Zonink has been gathering a collection of absolutely undeserved reactions throughout this entire thread and it’s done nothing but make my blood boil.

It feels like everyone here is blind except for me. Zonink is the aggressor. I’ve only played defense this entire thread, and yet for some reason I’m the one in the wrong. It feels arbitrary, unjust, biased against me because the rest of you all also think my idea is terrible and just don’t have the guts to spit it out. It’s such a blatantly obvious fact here that they were the one to open with hostility, and I only matched that level of hostility. And I didn’t respond with insults. Unless you take offense to my pointing out that your argument is literary spaghetti.

I’m tired of being the only one on the hill. Every. Single. Time. Nobody here ever bothers to back me up, only ever wanting to either shut down my ideas or quash any conflict that arises from them. And then, of course, the people who want to stop the conflict invariably glare at me for whatever reason when I’ve only ever defended my interests. What makes my comments worse than theirs?! Nothing!

All I want at this point, my one and only desire, is for someone, anyone to affirm the idea that Zonink was in the wrong. Because I will not see them treated as a victim for another comment. They instigated, and they should be the one being reprimanded for starting this whole argument. Not. Me.